US Open setup, I don't like it

[r9dhicks]

Why is it a problem to make them land the ball on a dining room table? It's a hard game, and dont forget that these guys are professionals.

[kbrussell]

[quote]Here we go with the USGA / US Open bashing. Don't like it??? Don't play in it. Don't watch it. If you hit a proper 3rd shot on 14 you had no problems. 17? Tough hole. So what? They made other hole a LOT easier. All the other Opens at Pebble they NEVER moved tees up like they did this year. If Tiger, Phil, or Ernie had won instead of trying to recreate an episode of The Three Stooges, nobody would be complaining.[/quote]

Don't think you get the point... Yes, everyone in the field has to play the same hole, I get that, but when the setup for 17 is such that a perfectly struck shot will not hold the green, then there is too much LUCK brought into it, bypassing skill... I dont believe that is what the USGA wants.

Example... the shot Tiger hit on Sunday... No one in the world hits it any higher, he uses the highest spinning ball on tour, he hit what appeared to be a perfect shot, but couldn't hold the green... I think the only players that would up on the green were ones who hit it through the rough, and got a favorable bounce.... definition of luck. I like the US Open, love it in fact, but 17 was over the top at 200-220 yards... The old tee played from 200-175 or so, and would have been much more fair, as skill would have allowed a player to hit on the surface, and hold the green...

As for 14, I have played there 8 times, and have always thought they needed to redo the green to allow someone to be able to get up and down from a missed shot...as it is , it is almost impossible, again bringing luck into the equation, too much so...

[fats]

[quote name='hoganfan924' date='21 June 2010 - 10:00 AM' timestamp='1277128832' post='2523153']
Waaay too much luck involved on holes 7,14 and 17 IMO, the rest of the course seemed pretty fair to me.
[/quote]

Agreed...Pretty strong week for Callaway Golf...1st, 3rd and 4th tie. Should go a long way in improving ELY sales.

[TheDarkOne]

[quote name='johnnypro' date='21 June 2010 - 08:45 AM' timestamp='1277124307' post='2523018']
If Tiger, Phil, or Ernie had won instead of trying to recreate an episode of The Three Stooges, nobody would be complaining.
[/quote]
First and foremost, the above made me laugh, well done sir!

Secondly, this is the US Open, what were you expecting? If you are looking for 30 under par, you will get that in about 4 weeks at The Open. To me it's an outstanding tournament and the toughest test in golf, as it has been for decades. Doesn't anyone remember Hogan bringing the monster to it's knees? What made the Us Open a little less dramatic this year was our so called best players all fell flat. G Mac very quitely and confidently played a brilliant round and deserved to win. No one got ripped off, there wasn't anything fishy about it. The guy who played the best golf for 4 days won. Actually, he played outstanding golf. 2 Majors in the book, two great champions for the year!

[farmer]

For a course with major championship pedigree, the greens are awful. Is there some reason why they are left in poa annua? PA is hard to maintain under ideal conditions, it's growth rate makes it putt unevenly, so why not change out the grass?

[AcesAZ]

[quote name='kbrussell' date='21 June 2010 - 09:19 AM' timestamp='1277129952' post='2523199']
[quote]Here we go with the USGA / US Open bashing. Don't like it??? Don't play in it. Don't watch it. If you hit a proper 3rd shot on 14 you had no problems. 17? Tough hole. So what? They made other hole a LOT easier. All the other Opens at Pebble they NEVER moved tees up like they did this year. If Tiger, Phil, or Ernie had won instead of trying to recreate an episode of The Three Stooges, nobody would be complaining.[/quote]

Don't think you get the point... Yes, everyone in the field has to play the same hole, I get that, but when the setup for 17 is such that a perfectly struck shot will not hold the green, then there is too much LUCK brought into it, bypassing skill... I dont believe that is what the USGA wants.

[b]Example... the shot Tiger hit on Sunday... No one in the world hits it any higher, he uses the highest spinning ball on tour, he hit what appeared to be a perfect shot, but couldn't hold the green... [/b]I think the only players that would up on the green were ones who hit it through the rough, and got a favorable bounce.... definition of luck. I like the US Open, love it in fact, but 17 was over the top at 200-220 yards... The old tee played from 200-175 or so, and would have been much more fair, as skill would have allowed a player to hit on the surface, and hold the green...

As for 14, I have played there 8 times, and have always thought they needed to redo the green to allow someone to be able to get up and down from a missed shot...as it is , it is almost impossible, again bringing luck into the equation, too much so...
[/quote]


Thats exactly my point. I knew Tiger hit a great shot but yet even he had no chance to stop it. What it does is it makes it uninteresting and boring knowing these guys had no chance to even pull off the best possible shot. Making birdie there was either luck by hopping it through the rough or having to chip in. I think they need to take a look at certain holes before 2019 to make them playable (7,14,17).

[rgk5]

Revenue is down 50% for Pebble and what was once a prize is now a joke.

I would venture that the $500+ green fee is more to blame.

[bermuda]

A Nationwide Tour player shot 68. The 300+ player in the world shot 72. An amateur shot 71. Mickelson drove a par-4 green. And the course was too hard and tricked up?

Watching Tim Clark and Tom Watson play 17, maybe hitting into the bunker was the way to do it.

The final round was anti-climactic, but maybe the players who needed to play better should have played better, rather than the course be modified to make it easier for them. If anyone in the top 10 going into the day had shot 68 like Herman and a couple of others did, he would've won.

[matthewsiv]

I think that the USGA did a great job overall with Pebble Beach.

They maybe could have made a couple of more birdie chances on the back nine.

I think that the Pebble Beach Company need to redesign the 14th green.

I have payed it a few times and it is brutal.

It is boring to watch golf every week where they have a yardage of 150 and pitch it that distance and they make birdie.

They had to think their way around the course.

[Dizz]

[quote name='r9dhicks' date='21 June 2010 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1277128994' post='2523156']
7 is a 92 yd chip shot, and is tough, true. 14 is made to be a 3 shot hole and par is respected, so props to mike davis. 17 is revered as one of the hardest par 3's in the game. nothing unfair about those.
[/quote]

17 is flat out unfair...period. The more I think about it the more I think every hole was setup well aside from 17. 7 is 92 yards, no complaints there. 14 if you get in position for a 3rd shot you can hit it close so thats fine too. But 17 was just a bad hole. It was seriously impossible to hit a good shot. IMO a hole is bad when you have to hit a perfect shot by bouncing it through the rough to get it close. And for you to say that an up and down on that hole is "not that hard" is ridiculous.

[AcesAZ]

[quote name='matthewsiv' date='21 June 2010 - 10:08 AM' timestamp='1277132905' post='2523320']
I think that the USGA did a great job overall with Pebble Beach.

They maybe could have made a couple of more birdie chances on the back nine.

I think that the Pebble Beach Company need to redesign the 14th green.

I have payed it a few times and it is brutal.

It is boring to watch golf every week where they have a yardage of 150 and pitch it that distance and they make birdie.

They had to think their way around the course.
[/quote]

I think its much more boring watching the best players in the world play for par all day. Certain holes were unfair like 17,14, even 7. Overall I thought most of the holes were OK, but even a few bad holes will help ruin (for me) what should have been the greatest tournament of the year. Like I said in my first post, if the best possible shot cannot land and stop on the green then something has to be done, either soften the green, make it bigger, shorten the hole or a combo of all three. Personally I just think the greens were too hard overall. If 6 or 7 under wins so be it, but make it possible to make birdie.

[johnnypro]

OK, 17 was borderline. I'll give you that. But not 14. If you're talented enough to hit a 280+ yard drive in the fairway and a 200+ yard second shot in the fairway, then you SHOULD be talented enough to put a 100 yard wedge shot within a ~25 foot circle. And even when they didn't PLENTY of guys got it up and down from the bunker, long, or left. The only time you're 100% screwed is when you missed it right and it came rolling 30 yards back down the fairway. And those guys deserved what they got.

Tiger may have hit a perfect shot on 17 BUT TOUGH. He shouldn't have snap-hooked his tee shot on 3, or missed the green on 8, or put his tee shot over the cliffs on 6, or, worst of all, missed the green right on 10 from 124 yards in the middle of the fairway.
And I love Tiger but COME ON!!

[AcesAZ]

[quote name='johnnypro' date='21 June 2010 - 10:52 AM' timestamp='1277135560' post='2523446']
OK, 17 was borderline. I'll give you that. But not 14. If you're talented enough to hit a 280+ yard drive in the fairway and a 200+ yard second shot in the fairway, then you SHOULD be talented enough to put a 100 yard wedge shot within a ~25 foot circle. And even when they didn't PLENTY of guys got it up and down from the bunker, long, or left. The only time you're 100% screwed is when you missed it right and it came rolling 30 yards back down the fairway. And those guys deserved what they got.

Tiger may have hit a perfect shot on 17 BUT TOUGH. He shouldn't have snap-hooked his tee shot on 3, or missed the green on 8, or put his tee shot over the cliffs on 6, or, worst of all, missed the green right on 10 from 124 yards in the middle of the fairway.
And I love Tiger but COME ON!!
[/quote]

I tend to agree with you on 14, It was possble to pull the shot off, but on 7 it was almost impossible and on 17 it was. 14 in my mind is just a bad design for the current green speeds. In 1920 and I bet even in 72' and 82'( I never watch Im too young) the green didnt roll the ball back 50 yards. They should soften the slope so it can stay on the green so it can play as it has in the past and originally intended. All they need is a windmill and 14 would be a complete joke.

[Seniordude]

I do agree that luck can come into play on a setup like that, especially with the greens. It looked like guys were having a hard time reading them. If greens are bumpy they throw a ball off line. That's why the same putt line can throw one ball left of the hole and another ball to the right. It only needs to happen once or twice a round and there goes your tournament hopes. Or, you can just be lucky once or twice a round and thereya go.
I've played a couple courses that had bumpy greens. The courses were like that because they had a very low budget and couldn't afford to fix them, or keep them properly maintained.

[EBgolf]

I enjoy watching the pros struggle and complain about it they all think the course should be perfect every time they play and in our world it is not and I like watching them play and hit shots that I hit sometimes hit chips and they go 2 feet that makes me look at them as humans... I will say that some of the holes were crazy tough 17 was one 14 was tough just as everyone has noted but I don't mind there being some luck involved. Every time I play at my local course half the holes I play there is luck involved like am I lucky enough for them to have mowed all 18 today or just 6-10 or have they mowed the rough in the past 3 weeks or not and they use the prisoners to maintain it and do the maintenance so some days the pins will be less than 2 feet off the edge definitely not fair but I go and play and I enjoy it because it is a blessing to play golf

I am just glad when they play the US open and the top players struggle because it shows them they can win and still play without playing perfect conditions just like the rest of us and all the big names had to do was shoot even par and win you would think that one of them would have been good enough to do that even if you count 14 and 17 as bogey holes there was more than 2 birdie holes out there

[rlynham]

I think some of the guys just decided to aim for the front trap on 17. Usually you don't see so many pros misclub that badly. They probably figured they had a better chance at par from the trap.

[Rife4Life]

I personally loved the setup...thought it forced the pro's to pla an older style of golf that required more shot shaping and accuracy, including long irons...instead of hit it a b=mile and drop a short iron close to the green...course management was key...love the us open

[cardoustie]

With the exception of 17, it was perfect. A perfect shot has to hold the green IMO. BUT.... these guys are so good, and they know it is not holding no matter what .. so ... bang it in the bunker and make 3 with a sand save. It was the SAME for everyone after all

My course is pretty tricky (small greens and high slope rating) and we have 4 or 5 holes where you have a 10-15 foot circle to get your shot into or you are in real REAL trouble. Sometimes, 10 feet short of the green and 50 feet away is better than a 6 foot putt from above the pin. Sometimes the bunker under a severely tilted green is better than the high side putting. I've seen this same scenario at MANY other courses as well on some of their harder holes

My feeling is that if myself and my chopper friends (hcaps 3-9) can get 65-150 yard shots inside a 15 foot circle, if we execute, why shouldn't plus 6 to plus 9 guys be asked to do the same .... ONE or TWO events per year. Augusta is like this in many spots after all

I liked the US Open. I think Phil blew it early and it cost him. He should've birdied 4 and not 3 wiggled 10. No birdie on 6 when everyone seemed to have putts inside 15 feet for eagle. That leaves him under par with the MOJO for the back 9.

[JasonZ]

[quote name='rgk5' date='21 June 2010 - 10:49 AM' timestamp='1277131745' post='2523267']
Revenue is down 50% for Pebble and what was once a prize is now a joke.

I would venture that the $500+ green fee is more to blame.
[/quote]

Actually, it's a poor economy that is to blame. The owners of Pebble were hoping this little event would bring a lot of positive attention to their resort. it did not. I stand by my statement, no one is calling to make reservations after watching 4 days of bad golf. Having played there more then once, it is one of the few places that is worth the price of admission. I am willing to wager you will not see this disaster at Kohler in August. Banden, Kohler and Pebble are the three places to play if you are truly into amazing land, amazing beauty.

[birdieboy52]

[quote]
I am willing to wager you will not see this disaster at Kohler in August. Banden, Kohler and Pebble are the three places to play if you are truly into amazing land, amazing beauty.
[/quote]

The PGA runs the vent this August and they never set up a course to demonstrate excellence in ball striking. They run a golf tournament as pure entertainment for the masses.

[Thetid]

Can anyone name 3 memorable shots (or hell, just 1) that anyone with a chance to win made in the last 4-5 holes on sunday?

You can make a golf course as hard as you want it to be (you can make it so 10 over wins), but who cares, its about testing all of the abilities of a player. I want to see a tour pro try to stick a 3W into the par-5 18th, but you cant when the course is set up the way it was.

[twgolf]

I have to agree a few of the holes were totally unfair, especially #17, and #14. #14's green and pin placements were stupid. The thing that amazed me the most was the pins on Sunday. I watched a ton of putts look like they were going to go in and then in the last 6 inches they dove right and left of the cup almost 90 degrees and missed. How fair is that? I would have rather seen the greens and the pin placements more receptive and do away with the graduated rough putting a premium on hitting the fairway. A player should not be penalized for hitting the fairway and hitting a good shot into the green only to have it bounce through the green or have the pin totally unaccessable even if you hit the perfect drive. Birdie chances need to be there to give the guys a chance at a comeback on Sunday. Watching the best players in the world struggling to make par because of course set up and not their play is boring to me. It's like watching he Daytona 500 and tuning in for the last 5-10 laps to see who is going to avoid the big crash for a chance to win. In four rounds only three players shot 66 and I do not think anyone else broke 68 in one round. Only five players broke par in the final round, three 68's,, one 69, and one 70. I have not calculated the final round scoring average, but I am pretty sure it is like 6-7 over par at least! I guess after Tiger shot 12 under at PB in 2000, they were going to ensure that no one would even come any where near that score by setting up the course the way they did.

[TKing]

If the goal is to set it up so that "E" is the winning score, I don't see how they can do any better.

[hogans71]

[quote name='Thetid' date='21 June 2010 - 02:40 PM' timestamp='1277149250' post='2524017']
Can anyone name 3 memorable shots (or hell, just 1) that anyone with a chance to win made in the last 4-5 holes on sunday?

You can make a golf course as hard as you want it to be (you can make it so 10 over wins), but who cares, its about testing all of the abilities of a player. I want to see a tour pro try to stick a 3W into the par-5 18th, but you cant when the course is set up the way it was.
[/quote]


How is this the course's fault? Those who failed to win did so because of their inability to perform when needed. The only issue I had was the fact they had the 17th tee so far back on Sunday. That is a crazy green when you are coming in from 180 yds, let alone 220+. Other than that, no issues whatsover. Weather-wise, no day was really worse than the other and those in contention at what point or another threw up one or two very solid rounds earlier in the tourney. Also, of the three par fives, one was playing as an above average length par four, one was a go, no-go situation, depending on how well you hit your tee shot and one was a true three shot par five. I think that's pretty fair as well...

[SwooshLT]

[quote name='Rife4Life' date='21 June 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1277139801' post='2523619']
I personally loved the setup...thought it forced the pro's to pla an older style of golf that required more shot shaping and accuracy, including long irons...instead of hit it a b=mile and drop a short iron close to the green...course management was key...love the us open
[/quote]

This is the WHOLE truth, nuthing but the Truth so help me!!! Bomb and gouge can take a back seat every once and awhile....

[JasonZ]

[quote name='TMAG-FireMedic' date='21 June 2010 - 04:13 PM' timestamp='1277151182' post='2524114']
[quote name='Rife4Life' date='21 June 2010 - 01:03 PM' timestamp='1277139801' post='2523619']
I personally loved the setup...thought it forced the pro's to pla an older style of golf that required more shot shaping and accuracy, including long irons...instead of hit it a b=mile and drop a short iron close to the green...course management was key...love the us open
[/quote]

This is the WHOLE truth, nuthing but the Truth so help me!!! Bomb and gouge can take a back seat every once and awhile....
[/quote]

Bomb and gouge went out with the groove change, it has nothing to do with course set up. The majority is complaining about the lack of enjoyment. The players were complaining about the lack of shot making. Hell, I have yet to hear anyone say they were happy with the set up. Lets just put a nail in this one, it is over and done with THANK GOD. It was the worst 4 days I have seen. No one wants to watch nothing happen, and the last hour on Sunday was a yawner. BTW, every guy in the field could hit a dime on the fairway from any yardage, they couldn't control what the ball would do once it hit that dime. Not the golfers fault. The only thing missing was colored golf balls, a wind mill on 14, a bridge to putt over on 17 and a couple clowns.

[r9dhicks]

[quote]If the goal is to set it up so that "E" is the winning score, I don't see how they can do any better.
[/quote]

Said better than anyone else on this forum. The goal is Even Par. Great Success!

[CryMeARiver]

[quote name='r9dhicks' date='21 June 2010 - 04:26 PM' timestamp='1277151982' post='2524143']
[quote]If the goal is to set it up so that "E" is the winning score, I don't see how they can do any better.
[/quote]

Said better than anyone else on this forum. The goal is Even Par. Great Success!
[/quote]


The goal is even par? I thought the goal was to identify the best player...

[asualum]

[quote name='Qstick333' date='21 June 2010 - 03:41 AM' timestamp='1277120500' post='2522946']
MAybe I am in the minority - but I enjoyed watching this weekend. I enjoy watching the pros play a different strategy and shot selection based on the course setup. Something other than smash it out there as far as possible and spin a wedge onto the green.....
[/quote]

I completely agree.

[QuigleyDU]

my opinion is that yes it is fair in the sense that everyone is playing the same course. But I think that if you hit your tee shot to a good position in the fairway and you are only 90 yards away, you should be able to shoot at the flag with in reason and be rewarded for one your good positioning off the tee and second a solid wedge shot. that is where I felt this open was unwatchable and frustrating from a spectator point of view. I can go to my local muni and watch bad shots ( or unrewarded good shots) from the fairway.