Tips for a 2 handicap that is coming way to far to the inside.

[SOONERMAGIC]

I took a lesson about a month ago to work on some things and since I have been coming way too far from the inside. My divots at times on horrible misses are aimed way to the right and about 2 inches behind the ball. This is mostly with long irons, but in any case I need some drills to get back on plane. I have been working on it for a month now with no luck. I can go shoot a 72 one day and when its bad shoot an 88. lol..

 

Looking for an explanation that can help me trap the ball and quit coming from the inside. If I try to trap the ball its always a pull/hook. I have been shanking and pushing/weak weak fade lately with my swing path leaving the face open.

 

 

HELP FOR THE LOVE OF TIM TEBOW!

[fdbrian]

try and set a stand up bag to your right so that it angles toward your body and make some swings down the line of the bag to get the feel of being more on plane with your take away.

This may or not work and I might be right or I could be wrong. I'm a Husker fan so I might have given you bad advice or maybe I didn't.

GBR and screw Texas.

[SOONERMAGIC]

Yeah, Im thinking of setting something up tomorrow after work on the range with some training sticks. Anyone got any ideas, should I put them in the ground at about a 45* angle.

I have played some great golf in the last year, but this last month of off and on horrible to great golf has just beaten me up mentally. I really feel lost and want to tackle this on my own as I am going after my Class A PGA Cert.

Thx fellas...

[mac guffin]

[quote name='ORLANDOZAC13' timestamp='1280015802' post='2596892']
Yeah, Im thinking of setting something up tomorrow after work on the range with some training sticks. Anyone got any ideas, should I put them in the ground at about a 45* angle.

I have played some great golf in the last year, but this last month of off and on horrible to great golf has just beaten me up mentally. I really feel lost and want to tackle this on my own as I am going after my Class A PGA Cert.

Thx fellas...
[/quote]

Uh, I know this guy can be controversial, but this video is almost exactly about what you are asking:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZOwIHeV-xw[/media]

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='mac guffin' timestamp='1280016521' post='2596916']
[quote name='ORLANDOZAC13' timestamp='1280015802' post='2596892']
Yeah, Im thinking of setting something up tomorrow after work on the range with some training sticks. Anyone got any ideas, should I put them in the ground at about a 45* angle.

I have played some great golf in the last year, but this last month of off and on horrible to great golf has just beaten me up mentally. I really feel lost and want to tackle this on my own as I am going after my Class A PGA Cert.

Thx fellas...
[/quote]

Uh, I know this guy can be controversial, but this video is almost exactly about what you are asking:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZOwIHeV-xw[/media]
[/quote]

That was good.

On a side note, that is the most extreme example of a "farmer's tan" that I have ever seen.

[Insidious2]

My HCI would normally restrict me from giving advice but I also suffer from this with my long irons. What I usually notice is that when I am pushing or my divots are going in-to-out is that the top of my backswing is lower than it should be, usually about upper-bicep height OR that when moving my body forward my hips and front knee aren't clearing enough. Just something to think about.

[Jamboy72]

First, check yourself at the top of your swing. There is a good chance you are in a different position than with your shorter irons. Also, make sure you tempo is the same as with your shorter clubs...if you can get these two in sync, it is amazing what you might see...

[acegolfer]

I had the same problem: excessive in-out swing. The following seemed to work for me. YMMV.

1. Narrower, closer to ball stance, arms hanging perpendicular from shoulders. This promotes passive arms.
2. 3/4 swing, which promotes arms in front of body instead of getting stuck.
3. Maintaining the tush line. I had hip thrust issue causing arms getting stuck resulting in block shots.

I'm curious what your instructor said. You said you took a lesson because of this swing. What did he say?

[happyroman]

The more I think about this, the more I believe that so called modern golf instruction has done golfers a great disservice. The advent of slow motion video has led, IMO, to the "discovery" of positions that one must achieve in order to have a fundamentally sound swing. This leads, in turn, to golfers attempting to manipulate the club (and their bodies) through these various positions. What has been lost in this process is that above all, it is a swinging motion that is of paramount importance.

In order for the club to be swung, two aspects of physics must apply, centrifugal force and inertia. Centrifugal force is the outward force acting on a body rotating in a circle around a central point. Inertia says that, an object, once set in motion, will continue in a state of uniform motion unless acted upon by an outside force.

The rotation of the torso generates energy which is transferred through the arms and hands to the club shaft and clubhead. The centrifugal force created keeps the clubhead travelling in an arc around the body. Once the club is swinging around the body, the plane is established, by the length of the club and the spine angle (i.e., how much forward and sideways tilt there is in the spine relative to vertical).

If we maintain a steady swing center, and do not introduce any outside forces on the club (i.e., through hand manipulation such as flipping or overuse of the upper arms and shoulders) the clubhead will track on a consistent arc due to inertia. This will be a consistent swing plane and will be neither above or below plane; too far inside or too far outside.

Shawn Clement has an excellent drill he calls the perpetual motion drill, where you simply swing back and through, allowing the club to skip off the turf in the same spot. As long as you maintain a balanced swinging motion, you will be on-plane. The beauty of this swinging motion is that there is no need to "memorize" the various positions one must achieve in the swing. There is no need to worry about whether the backswing is too far inside or outside. It simply is what it is. What you will quickly learn is the feeling of the club pulling away from the center of the torso due to centrifugal force.

The other benefit of working on maintaining the feel of the centrifugal force being generated is that it keeps everything moving together. The hips don't outrace the upper body, causing the arms to get stuck behind the torso. Also, the shoulders are less likely to take over and come over the top.

Here's a link to a video by Shawn Clement on swing plane.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=clemshaw#p/search/0/eOGuGat2tbU"]http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=clemshaw#p/search/0/eOGuGat2tbU[/url]

[northgolf]

[quote name='happyroman' timestamp='1280154192' post='2599553']
.....
In order for the club to be swung, two aspects of physics must apply, centrifugal force and inertia. Centrifugal force is the outward force acting on a body rotating in a circle around a central point. Inertia says that, an object, once set in motion, will continue in a state of uniform motion unless acted upon by an outside force.

The rotation of the torso generates energy which is transferred through the arms and hands to the club shaft and clubhead. The centrifugal force created keeps the clubhead travelling in an arc around the body. Once the club is swinging around the body, the plane is established, by the length of the club and the spine angle (i.e., how much forward and sideways tilt there is in the spine relative to vertical).

If we maintain a steady swing center, and do not introduce any outside forces on the club (i.e., through hand manipulation such as flipping or overuse of the upper arms and shoulders) the clubhead will track on a consistent arc due to inertia. This will be a consistent swing plane and will be neither above or below plane; too far inside or too far outside.

...
[/quote]

Just a small point.

There is no such thing as centrifugal force. For an object to travel in a circle, it must have centripetal acceleration; that is, it must be accelerated towards the center of the circle. If an object is traveling in a circle and no force is applied to it (that is, the centripetal acceleration ceases), then it will travel in a straight line along the tangent to the circle from the point at which the acceleration ceased. Our applying centripetal acceleration to the clubhead is what we feel as "centrifugal force" - we are accelerating it toward the axis of the swing so it will continue its circular motion rather than fly off on a tangent.

This is another case where what we "feel" is not what is actual.

[happyroman]

.....

In order for the club to be swung, two aspects of physics must apply, centrifugal force and inertia. Centrifugal force is the outward force acting on a body rotating in a circle around a central point. Inertia says that, an object, once set in motion, will continue in a state of uniform motion unless acted upon by an outside force.

 

The rotation of the torso generates energy which is transferred through the arms and hands to the club shaft and clubhead. The centrifugal force created keeps the clubhead travelling in an arc around the body. Once the club is swinging around the body, the plane is established, by the length of the club and the spine angle (i.e., how much forward and sideways tilt there is in the spine relative to vertical).

 

If we maintain a steady swing center, and do not introduce any outside forces on the club (i.e., through hand manipulation such as flipping or overuse of the upper arms and shoulders) the clubhead will track on a consistent arc due to inertia. This will be a consistent swing plane and will be neither above or below plane; too far inside or too far outside.

 

...

 

Just a small point.

 

There is no such thing as centrifugal force. For an object to travel in a circle, it must have centripetal acceleration; that is, it must be accelerated towards the center of the circle. If an object is traveling in a circle and no force is applied to it (that is, the centripetal acceleration ceases), then it will travel in a straight line along the tangent to the circle from the point at which the acceleration ceased. Our applying centripetal acceleration to the clubhead is what we feel as "centrifugal force" - we are accelerating it toward the axis of the swing so it will continue its circular motion rather than fly off on a tangent.

 

This is another case where what we "feel" is not what is actual.

 

 

According to Answers.com, centrifugal force is defined below, as pertains to sports science. If I understand this correctly, the inward force acting on the rotating object is centripetal force, which as you said, is the force which keeps the object from flying off in a straight line tangent to the circle. However, what the athlete is feeling is the centrifugal force, which is the outward force that is equal and opposite to the centripetal force. Whether centrifugal force is an actual force, or is a conceptual force or a form of inertia, is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

 

An outwardly directed force acting on a body rotating around a central point. It is a reaction force that is equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction to the centripetal force acting on the body.

 

 

 

[northgolf]

.....

In order for the club to be swung, two aspects of physics must apply, centrifugal force and inertia. Centrifugal force is the outward force acting on a body rotating in a circle around a central point. Inertia says that, an object, once set in motion, will continue in a state of uniform motion unless acted upon by an outside force.

 

The rotation of the torso generates energy which is transferred through the arms and hands to the club shaft and clubhead. The centrifugal force created keeps the clubhead travelling in an arc around the body. Once the club is swinging around the body, the plane is established, by the length of the club and the spine angle (i.e., how much forward and sideways tilt there is in the spine relative to vertical).

 

If we maintain a steady swing center, and do not introduce any outside forces on the club (i.e., through hand manipulation such as flipping or overuse of the upper arms and shoulders) the clubhead will track on a consistent arc due to inertia. This will be a consistent swing plane and will be neither above or below plane; too far inside or too far outside.

 

...

 

Just a small point.

 

There is no such thing as centrifugal force. For an object to travel in a circle, it must have centripetal acceleration; that is, it must be accelerated towards the center of the circle. If an object is traveling in a circle and no force is applied to it (that is, the centripetal acceleration ceases), then it will travel in a straight line along the tangent to the circle from the point at which the acceleration ceased. Our applying centripetal acceleration to the clubhead is what we feel as "centrifugal force" - we are accelerating it toward the axis of the swing so it will continue its circular motion rather than fly off on a tangent.

 

This is another case where what we "feel" is not what is actual.

 

 

According to Answers.com, centrifugal force is defined below, as pertains to sports science. If I understand this correctly, the inward force acting on the rotating object is centripetal force, which as you said, is the force which keeps the object from flying off in a straight line tangent to the circle. However, what the athlete is feeling is the centrifugal force, which is the outward force that is equal and opposite to the centripetal force. Whether centrifugal force is an actual force, or is a conceptual force or a form of inertia, is irrelevant to this discussion.

 

 

An outwardly directed force acting on a body rotating around a central point. It is a reaction force that is equal in magnitude, but opposite in direction to the centripetal force acting on the body.

 

 

 

 

 

Answers.com is wrong. There is no outward force. The newtonian equation for force is F=ma. Force equals mass multiplied by acceleration. Since all the acceleration is inward, all the force is directed inward.

[northgolf]

Just in case you don't believe me, here is a link to the University of Virginia website:
[url="http://phun.physics.virginia.edu/topics/centrifugal.html"]http://phun.physics.virginia.edu/topics/centrifugal.html[/url]

"[size="3"]<LI>[b]An object traveling in a circle behaves as if it is experiencing an outward force. This force, known as the centrifugal force, depends on the mass of the object, the speed of rotation, and the distance from the center. The more massive the object, the greater the force; the greater the speed of the object, the greater the force; and the greater the distance from the center, the greater the force.[/b]

It is important to note that the centrifugal force does not actually exist. We feel it, because we are in a non-inertial coordinate system. Nevertheless, it appears quite real to the object being rotated."[/size]
More at link.

[happyroman]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1280159632' post='2599728']
Just in case you don't believe me, here is a link to the University of Virginia website:
[url="http://phun.physics.virginia.edu/topics/centrifugal.html"]http://phun.physics....entrifugal.html[/url]

"[size="3"]<LI>An object traveling in a circle [b]behaves as if it is experiencing an outward force[/b]. This force, known as the centrifugal force, depends on the mass of the object, the speed of rotation, and the distance from the center. The more massive the object, the greater the force; the greater the speed of the object, the greater the force; and the greater the distance from the center, the greater the force.

It is important to note that the centrifugal force does not actually exist. We feel it, because we are in a non-inertial coordinate system. Nevertheless, it appears quite real to the object being rotated."[/size]
More at link.
[/quote]

I believe that what you are saying is correct. After all, who am I to argue with the University of VA. However, as their discussion above said, we feel it. The same link you posted also said the following:


Because the centrifugal force appears so real, it is often very useful to use as if it were real.

[size="2"]That is what I was doing in my discussion. Whether something called centrifugal force actually exists is irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is that the club behaves as if it is experiencing an outward force and that the golfer can feel it. It makes absolutely NO difference what it is called.[/size]

[Will Par]

Jim McLean addresses this in his book, [u]The Eight Step Swing[/u]. He says the swing thought you need is "low arms through impact". Read the chapter titled "Swing Left to Swing Right". For me, instead of visualizing the swing as inside to down the line, visualize it as down the line to inside. You want the club head to swing to the left after impact to stay on plane.

[northgolf]

[quote name='happyroman' timestamp='1280160589' post='2599767']

[size="2"]That is what I was doing in my discussion. Whether something called centrifugal force actually exists is irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is that the club behaves as if it is experiencing an outward force and that the golfer can feel it. It makes absolutely NO difference what it is called.[/size]
[/quote]

Yes, my last point was:

"This is another case where what we "feel" is not what is actual. "

Similar to the old ball flight laws. They may have some utility, but they should not be confused with physical reality.

Now that we have completed flying off on that tangent, back to the subject of "the feeling of the club pulling away from the center of the torso due to centrifugal force".

In my youth I read Earnest Jones and more recently Manuel De La Torre - both of these concentrate on the feel of swinging the club. That said, while I have played quite well using that feel, my swing included a well timed flip. The reason was a loose swinging motion contributed to a disconnected backswing and the well timed flip was the way to square the clubface when the club was stuck behind me. The points I am making is that the swinging feel works as long as you keep your hands in front of you, and that you can have that "swing" feel and still be flipping.

[happyroman]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1280163223' post='2599848']
[quote name='happyroman' timestamp='1280160589' post='2599767']
[size="2"]That is what I was doing in my discussion. Whether something called centrifugal force actually exists is irrelevant to the discussion. What matters is that the club behaves as if it is experiencing an outward force and that the golfer can feel it. It makes absolutely NO difference what it is called.[/size]
[/quote]

Yes, my last point was:

"This is another case where what we "feel" is not what is actual. "

Similar to the old ball flight laws. They may have some utility, but they should not be confused with physical reality.

Now that we have completed flying off on that tangent, back to the subject of "the feeling of the club pulling away from the center of the torso due to centrifugal force".

In my youth I read Earnest Jones and more recently Manuel De La Torre - both of these concentrate on the feel of swinging the club. That said, while I have played quite well using that feel, my swing included a well timed flip. The reason was a loose swinging motion contributed to a disconnected backswing and the well timed flip was the way to square the clubface when the club was stuck behind me. The points I am making is that the swinging feel works as long as you keep your hands in front of you, and that you can have that "swing" feel and still be flipping.
[/quote]

I absolutely agree with you.

What I failed to point out in my original post was that the arms and torso must stay in synch or connected. This is what you called keeping your hands in front of you. I skimmed over this point earlier, and should have been more explicit. IMO, the failure to maintain the connection of the arms to the rotating torso introduces an outside force that will disrupt the inertia, and therefore, adversely affect the clubhead path and swing plane.

The reason I have been thinking about this recently is twofold. First, I am reading George Knudson's excellent book, The Natural Golf Swing. Second, I have had some struggles with my own swing and where I should be placing the focus of my attention.

What I have found is that, at least for me, focusing on the movements of the body (shoulders, hips, etc.) makes it difficult to impossible to effectively swing the club. However, If I maintain connection and focus on feeling the club in my fingers, with no conscious manipulation, everything moves together effortlessly.

What I believe is happening is that the sensory nerves in the hands are sending signals to the brain, which in turn sends the correct impulses to the motor nerves throughout the body to control all aspects of the swinging motion. It's like the guidance system in an airplane with auto-pilot.

If the guidance system senses that the plane is moving off course, the necessary changes to bring it back on course are automatically performed. The same thing happens during the golf swing automatically at the subconscious level of the mind, in an infinitely more sophisticated manner.

The brain is analyzing data received by the sensory nerves and sending messages to the muscles through the motor nerves all the time. If we simply observe the results of the swing and allow things to happen naturally, the movements of the swing will be refined and perfected very quickly.