Ryan Moore with Ping irons (merged)

[bvmagic]

Not a good PR move for the company. Most golf fans will not be able to tell what irons he is using on TV.

But.

Only reason I even heard of Scratch was through these forums. I eventually bought a wedge to try out because of all positive talk around here. Didn't buy it because Ryan Moore used it, but because all of you kept talking about how great the wedges are. Now I can't speak for the rest of you, but without the golf forum I never would have known about Scratch and would probably have a Vokey wedge instead.

People on these forums are not like most golf fans, we follow any little equipment change by the pros. Ryan using Ping irons while he is part owner of Scratch does make me wonder what is going on. Although I already know my wedge is great (never tried the irons) this thread alone could influence some future customers who were thinking about trying their first Scratch clubs to go elsewhere.

[youngwaldo]

I also have to believe that deep down, Ari and company aren't as nonchalant about this as we're being led to believe.
[/quote]


I second that.

Wk

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='rymail00' timestamp='1288325096' post='2764516']
LOL!! This is just getting ridiculous. The one guy said he was going to buy a 2011 TD DW irons but now will not because someone RM is not currently playing them. Seriously??? You should play what you wan because you want to not because someone is, or is not playing them. Its just kinda funny.

I dont know I just dont see the big deal, NO ONE outside of WRX will ever know what he is playing, or not playing.

I bet next time he plays he has one of his 10 sets of Scratch irons in the bag and then this whole crisis would be forgotten. But it has been pretty funny reading how some people totally over react on such a small situation.
[/quote]

I agree with everything - it's ridiculous - and you're right about discussion board(s) as well - mountains out of mole hills; and, to think they are only speculating. But we see 2-3 pages of posts wondering whether or not some should wear a wide white belt. It's lack of experience and possible age that drives threads like this.

The tell here is anyone that doesn't buy Scratch or any other club because of what a tour player does or doesn't do demonstrates IMO not only the hold media has on "some" buying minds, it illustrates their lack of commitment to their irons which in turn influences their ability to play. Could it be they model their lives after what's seen on TV too.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='jerryo' timestamp='1288362315' post='2764880']
Could you imagine if Hogan played a competitors iron when the Hogan Co. was in its prime producing irons. Hogan put everything he had into making sure he and his customers had the best irons possible. He was proud to bring them out to the course each and every round.
[/quote]

Interesting comparison - however conditions were measurably different. Hogan actually owned the company. I am pretty confident Ryan just owns stock in lieu. Not all that different from a PGA tour player having a long time sponsor contract by Cadillac, but has a BMW in the second garage... (my neighbor)

[ssp]

JMHO,

* RM is an Odd Duck .... his attitude (seen it first hand), clothes (speak for themselves), perspective on sponsorship, this latest move with playing ping clubs.
* As stated (having a stake in Scratch) .... playing Ping is just bad form. Regardless of the business you are in.. using a competitive product is just bad form.
* Scratch ... if they continue to focus on their strategy and focus on quality .... they will have success. Their strategy is sound and their growth shows it.
* Scratch ... what small business doesn't wish they had made a few different decisions along the way. Learn from them is all ... (Ari ... buy RM out ) (he is a flake).


* Ari .... stay focused on your strategy (it is a good one) ..... !

[Arafel]

There are definitely not nonchalant about this. Behind the scenes something has probably changed. Where there is smoke there's fire. There is always a lot of smoke around Scratch it seems.

Who knows maybe the fanboys are right and this will turn out to be nothing.

[rlheiman]

Many have commented about the fact that this tournament is overseas, so it is not as big of a deal.

But isn't the market overseas huge, and willing to drop big coin on custom stuff? So wouldn't it be wise, even for a US based compan,y to show off their goods(clubs and pro)in the best possible light?

[moonshine]

It has been stated, so everyone stop beating the horse. He has no contract to play the irons people!!!!! He is not over stepping anything. NO CONTRACT for it people. If you are invested in GE, you don't just buy GE bulbs all the time. I don't think Jer was being literal when he said get out of parents house. Wake up monkey's is what he should have written.

[tembolo1284]

For me personally, what RM decides to play one week or the other won't change my mind about Scratch.
While I do think it is bad PR in general, I think it's obvious that the average joe won't realize what he's playing. They will just see the Scratch hat and the love handles and that Scatch is still a great wedge maker (or whatever they think of Scratch). For the freaks and obsessed like us, the fact that DW is the grinder/maker of the irons should be pleeeeenty good to override whatever one player does or doesn't do.

I'll start to worry about the company if several of their players start changing their equipment (like their wedges) for other makers.

Still shocked how you can go through 10 CUSTOM made sets(forged by DW himself no less), play that well, and then decide to go to another maker. THAT is what is making me wonder. Making me wonder what's up with RM more than what's up with Scratch though.

Don't think this will hurt Scratch one bit.

[clc55]

Bottom line on this, contract or no contract, there is just a dumb move on any account by Moore. Sure maybe he doesn't have to play the irons BUT when you are part owner of a company and choose a different product (not saying better just different) it is not going to go over well at all.

Maybe he should have attended a few business classes at UNLV.....

[slicktry]

[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1288364527' post='2764944']
It has been stated, so everyone stop beating the horse. He has no contract to play the irons people!!!!! He is not over stepping anything. NO CONTRACT for it people. If you are invested in GE, you don't just buy GE bulbs all the time. I don't think Jer was being literal when he said get out of parents house. Wake up monkey's is what he should have written.
[/quote]

Thank You! Exactly my point...

Anyways, I'm quite sure if any WRX'r had a Tour contract and could get every tour club from every manufacturer behind the van, they wouldn't take advantage?

God Bless
Jer

[clc55]

[quote name='slicktry' timestamp='1288365187' post='2764966']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1288364527' post='2764944']
It has been stated, so everyone stop beating the horse. He has no contract to play the irons people!!!!! He is not over stepping anything. NO CONTRACT for it people. If you are invested in GE, you don't just buy GE bulbs all the time. I don't think Jer was being literal when he said get out of parents house. Wake up monkey's is what he should have written.
[/quote]

Thank You! Exactly my point...

Anyways, I'm quite sure if any WRX'r had a Tour contract and could get every tour club from every manufacturer behind the van, they wouldn't take advantage?

God Bless
Jer
[/quote]


Having an small heavily diluted interest (playing contract) with a large fortune 500 company and having an ownership stake in a small brand that is growing are two completely different things.

[golferlaird]

Maybe... the airline lost his clubs?

[jerryo]

These guys are professional golfers. It is how the put bread on the table. Especially Ryan who has no big equipment sponsorship. I am going to make an assumption that when a player of Ryan's caliber enters a tournament they do so with a goal of winning that tournament. The golf clubs they use are their tools. I will make another assumption that these players are going to make damn sure they have the best tools in their bag when entering a tournament. Ryan felt that the Ping irons were the BEST tools for the job at hand. Not Scratch irons. If he wins the thing, does he take the Pings out?

[Arafel]

[quote name='clc55' timestamp='1288364997' post='2764960']
Bottom line on this, contract or no contract, there is just a dumb move on any account by Moore. Sure maybe he doesn't have to play the irons BUT when you are part owner of a company and choose a different product (not saying better just different) it is not going to go over well at all.

Maybe he should have attended a few business classes at UNLV.....
[/quote]

People keep trying to put this on Ryan by just saying that he has flaked out. What if he is not that dumb? What if this is a calculated move on his part. It tells me something significant has changed in their relationship, business or otherwise.

Generally in business these things usually mean something and aren't glossed over. Maybe I'm wrong and Ryan IS just a flake but I doubt it. I'll say it again Scratch's business dealings don't have a history of ending well.

[oaklandgolfer]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1288364799' post='2764954']
Still shocked how you can go through 10 CUSTOM made sets(forged by DW himself no less), play that well, and then decide to go to another maker. THAT is what is making me wonder. Making me wonder what's up with RM more than what's up with Scratch though.

Don't think this will hurt Scratch one bit.
[/quote]

I think it has been well documented....on this forum by Ari and by Ryan Moore's WITB throughout the 2010 season. Ryan has tried many different iron heads in an effort raise the launch angle of his irons without increasing the launch spin too much. That is why he had a set of EZ-1's made for the Masters with a very low center of gravity. If you look at all the new sets that Don has ground for him, they are all flight oriented. Another fact is he has stuck with the DG X100SL shaft . Therefore, each iron head change has very little impact to his game other than launch.

Scratch does have its own limitations, they have no cast molding process for irons. That is their choice as their target market segment is customizable wedges, forged wedges, forged irons and their tour department clubs. Ping's strong suit is casting, it has been that way for 20+ years. I have to admit that I don't know the current Ping product very well. However, what Ping does is great cast irons with extreme perimeter weighting and low center of gravity. Maybe, just maybe, Ryan found a set that met his launch conditions.

I have no doubt that Scratch will have a product in the near term to meet Ryan's specifications, it just isn't as easy as having a set poured and glued. Don's work is 2nd to none and takes time. If anything holds true, it will be Ryan will have a different set in his bag in a few weeks time.

As a big Scratch supporter do I look at Ryan differently? Yes, but if you haven't looked at him differently in the past year(clothes...tie, shoes....god those True shoes are ugly to me, sponsor...not having one to becoming part owner of a company or his game) there is no reason to look at him differently today. He is as big of a club HO as anyone on this site...including me. I don't play Scratch wedges because a certain pro does or does not play it. If you like a company's product.....use it. If you don't...then don't.

Scratch says there is no contract, so I take Scratch at their word. Scratch and Ryan aren't married in the iron department, so this is no cheating on your wife scenario. If he changes his wedges next week...I will change my tune on the Scratch/RM dealings.

[Tanner B.]

wow.. im shocked, i love scratch irons. their mb's are great. i know he's a cavity back guy but the use of a ping iron is kinda a slap in the face to the fellas at scratch.. not good.. it'd be even worse if he didn't play the wedges either. but that's gotta be in his contract. i love my scratch wedges. i'm disappointed in ryan. we'll see.. maybe they'll make a cb that appeals to him that resembles the ping??? over all im just surprised at this.

as far as his outfits.. i like some of them, some are a bit too much but sometimes it works!

[Arafel]

[quote name='oaklandgolfer' timestamp='1288367156' post='2765036']

I think it has been well documented....on this forum by Ari and by Ryan Moore's WITB throughout the 2010 season. Ryan has tried many different iron heads in an effort raise the launch angle of his irons without increasing the launch spin too much. That is why he had a set of EZ-1's made for the Masters with a very low center of gravity. If you look at all the new sets that Don has ground for him, they are all flight oriented. Another fact is he has stuck with the DG X100SL shaft . Therefore, each iron head change has very little impact to his game other than launch.

Scratch does have its own limitations, they have no cast molding process for irons. That is their choice as their target market segment is customizable wedges, forged wedges, forged irons and their tour department clubs. Ping's strong suit is casting, it has been that way for [size="3"][color="#ff0000"][b]20+ years[/b][/color][/size]. I have to admit that I don't know the current Ping product very well. However, what Ping does is great cast irons with extreme perimeter weighting and low center of gravity. Maybe, just maybe, Ryan found a set that met his launch conditions.

I have no doubt that Scratch will have a product in the near term to meet Ryan's specifications, it just isn't as easy as having a set poured and glued. Don's work is 2nd to none and takes time. If anything holds true, it will be Ryan will have a different set in his bag in a few weeks time.

As a big Scratch supporter do I look at Ryan differently? Yes, but if you haven't looked at him differently in the past year(clothes...tie, shoes....god those True shoes are ugly to me, sponsor...not having one to becoming part owner of a company or his game) there is no reason to look at him differently today. He is as big of a club HO as anyone on this site...including me. I don't play Scratch wedges because a certain pro does or does not play it. If you like a company's product.....use it. If you don't...then don't.

Scratch says there is no contract, so I take Scratch at their word. Scratch and Ryan aren't married in the iron department, so this is no cheating on your wife scenario. If he changes his wedges next week...I will change my tune on the Scratch/RM dealings.
[/quote]

Great post. Just one small correction, it's 50+ years that PING has been casting clubs.

[Pepperturbo]

Whats entertaining about this thread is - how far assumptions go based upon personal experience, expectations and lack of contractual knowledge; notwithstanding Ryan's noted club ho history as an unknown. IMO - tour club ho's do NOT become contemporary Ben Hogan's, Jack Nicklaus or Nick Faldo's...

[oaklandgolfer]

[quote name='JASONR5' timestamp='1288367642' post='2765052']

Great post. Just one small correction, it's 50+ years that PING has been casting clubs.
[/quote]

I know how long Ping has been casting clubs...they have been the LEADER for 20+ years. Before then, companies like Spalding and Powerbuilt had better processes and designs. It wasn't until the original set of Eye 2's came out that put all others behind in the game.

[Arafel]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1288367803' post='2765057']
Whats entertaining about this thread is - how far assumptions go based upon personal experience, expectations and lack of contractual knowledge; notwithstanding Ryan's noted club ho history as an unknown. IMO - tour club ho's do NOT become contemporary Ben Hogan's, Jack Nicklaus or Nick Faldo's...
[/quote]

In the end you may be right. This could be Ryan being a little flaky when it comes to his clubs. I have my doubts though, strong doubts actually.

[gators78]

Ok, I'm going for all out guessing assumptions now, because well...why not!

Ryan was using Scratch to fill all his club curiosities and was nearly next to Don at the grinding wheel dictating out his next 5 sets. He became too much of a priority and other services were starting to slide and/or company direction was going a different way under Ryan's eye than the owners. Owners are probably figuring out how to buy his share out but keep him affiliated with the company, Ryan in return plays his old company that he bitterly left a few years ago. He decides to break them out in Malaysia because media coverage is limited but he knows it'll blow up on the golf forums (because thats exactly how Scratch blew up in the first place). Either next year he moves to a different company, or he organizes a group of investors to buy them out and keep Scratch as a super high end company that caters to tour-like players, DW at the disposal to all the tour guys and loosely targeting customers going for high end irons/wedges.

Stephen King lookout.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='oaklandgolfer' timestamp='1288367156' post='2765036']


I think it has been well documented....on this forum by Ari and by Ryan Moore's WITB throughout the 2010 season. Ryan has tried many different iron heads in an effort raise the launch angle of his irons without increasing the launch spin too much. That is why he had a set of EZ-1's made for the Masters with a very low center of gravity. If you look at all the new sets that Don has ground for him, they are all flight oriented. Another fact is he has stuck with the DG X100SL shaft . Therefore, each iron head change has very little impact to his game other than launch.

Scratch does have its own limitations, they have no cast molding process for irons. That is their choice as their target market segment is customizable wedges, forged wedges, forged irons and their tour department clubs. Ping's strong suit is casting, it has been that way for 20+ years. I have to admit that I don't know the current Ping product very well. However, what Ping does is great cast irons with extreme perimeter weighting and low center of gravity. Maybe, just maybe, Ryan found a set that met his launch conditions.

I have no doubt that Scratch will have a product in the near term to meet Ryan's specifications, it just isn't as easy as having a set poured and glued. Don's work is 2nd to none and takes time. If anything holds true, it will be Ryan will have a different set in his bag in a few weeks time.

As a big Scratch supporter do I look at Ryan differently? Yes, but if you haven't looked at him differently in the past year(clothes...tie, shoes....god those True shoes are ugly to me, sponsor...not having one to becoming part owner of a company or his game) there is no reason to look at him differently today. He is as big of a club HO as anyone on this site...including me. I don't play Scratch wedges because a certain pro does or does not play it. If you like a company's product.....use it. If you don't...then don't.

Scratch says there is no contract, so I take Scratch at their word. Scratch and Ryan aren't married in the iron department, so this is no cheating on your wife scenario. If he changes his wedges next week...I will change my tune on the Scratch/RM dealings.
[/quote]


Not buying it Oakland. The guy i'm sure knew exactly what the company was able to do for him. Who the hell signs up, becomes part owner, and then finds out a head can't be made for him that doesn't suit his ball flight needs? Gimme a break.

Agree though, clothes are Fugly.

As other people mentioned...what happens if the guy ends up winning this asian event with the Pings?

Just realized I don't like Ping myself. Nice putters though.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='gators77' timestamp='1288369524' post='2765099']
Ok, I'm going for all out guessing assumptions now, because well...why not!

Ryan was using Scratch to fill all his club curiosities and was nearly next to Don at the grinding wheel dictating out his next 5 sets. He became too much of a priority and other services were starting to slide and/or company direction was going a different way under Ryan's eye than the owners. Owners are probably figuring out how to buy his share out but keep him affiliated with the company, Ryan in return plays his old company that he bitterly left a few years ago. He decides to break them out in Malaysia because media coverage is limited but he knows it'll blow up on the golf forums (because thats exactly how Scratch blew up in the first place). Either next year he moves to a different company, or he organizes a group of investors to buy them out and keep Scratch as a super high end company that caters to tour-like players, DW at the disposal to all the tour guys and loosely targeting customers going for high end irons/wedges.

Stephen King lookout.
[/quote]

wow... only a few flaws. If a closed corp wants to force someone out - they can with some legal maneuvers and restructuring of stock. Typically early stage corporations are closed with limited stock; that can change with BOD desire however. The founder (me) holds the vast majority of shares to maintain control; while a stipulated percentage of shares with stated values are available for minority positions and or officers, and some set aside for special designation. Minority share holders do not have any real position of influence; and in most cases can't even sell their holding to an outside person. What they have is limited stock with a stated value, and a P&L asset.

A minority holder typically can't do anything other then vote in some cases, sell it back to the corporation, and capitalize if an outside suitor wants to buy the company and the BOD agrees.

[falken19150]

After hitting the S56s I don't blame him for changing.........

[oaklandgolfer]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1288370913' post='2765118']
Not buying it Oakland. The guy i'm sure knew exactly what the company was able to do for him. Who the hell signs up, becomes part owner, and then finds out a head can't be made for him that doesn't suit his ball flight needs? Gimme a break.

Agree though, clothes are Fugly.

As other people mentioned...what happens if the guy ends up winning this asian event with the Pings?

Just realized I don't like Ping myself. Nice putters though.
[/quote]

I'm not asking you to buy into design limitations of forged clubs vs cast clubs. Those are obvious. Have you seen what Don White has made for Ryan? Have you seen how much metal he has moved around to accommodate the lower COG? It is amazing what Don can do, however, Don and Scratch are limited by not having a cast offering. The only way to take a forged clubhead and move that amount of metal to get the COG as low as Ryan likes....is to CNC the clubhead. Scratch doesn't do CNC as CNC is not custom.

If he wins with the Ping....my guess is they stay in the bag until he finds something better.

[gators78]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1288372793' post='2765147']


wow... only a few flaws. If a closed corp wants to force someone out - they can with some legal maneuvers and restructuring of stock. Typically early stage corporations are closed with limited stock; that can change with BOD desire however. The founder (me) holds the vast majority of shares to maintain control; while a stipulated percentage of shares with stated values are available for minority positions and or officers, and some set aside for special designation. Minority share holders do not have any real position of influence; and in most cases can't even sell their holding to an outside person. What they have is limited stock with a stated value, and a P&L asset.

A minority holder typically can't do anything other then vote in some cases, sell it back to the corporation, and capitalize if an outside suitor wants to buy the company and the BOD agrees.
[/quote]

Ha fair enough , I added in that last part because I needed to make some predictions long term. I still think this is stemming from Scratch wanting to take back the keys to the kingdom from Ryan so to speak, but hey I'm bored at work so why not speculate.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='oaklandgolfer' timestamp='1288374023' post='2765180']


I'm not asking you to buy into design limitations of forged clubs vs cast clubs. Those are obvious. Have you seen what Don White has made for Ryan? Have you seen how much metal he has moved around to accommodate the lower COG? It is amazing what Don can do, however, Don and Scratch are limited by not having a cast offering. The only way to take a forged clubhead and move that amount of metal to get the COG as low as Ryan likes....is to CNC the clubhead. Scratch doesn't do CNC as CNC is not custom.

If he wins with the Ping....my guess is they stay in the bag until he finds something better.
[/quote]

Again, why would he sign up with them if he knew the limitations they had in being able to produce a head that would give him the flight he wanted. Yes, i've seen White's work for 7 of the heads made for RM. It's really soemthing!

In any case, agree with you on keeping Ping in the bag if he wins. Doesn't look good for RM though.

[OneBowTie]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1288375555' post='2765218']
[quote name='oaklandgolfer' timestamp='1288374023' post='2765180']


I'm not asking you to buy into design limitations of forged clubs vs cast clubs. Those are obvious. Have you seen what Don White has made for Ryan? Have you seen how much metal he has moved around to accommodate the lower COG? It is amazing what Don can do, however, Don and Scratch are limited by not having a cast offering. The only way to take a forged clubhead and move that amount of metal to get the COG as low as Ryan likes....is to CNC the clubhead. Scratch doesn't do CNC as CNC is not custom.

If he wins with the Ping....my guess is they stay in the bag until he finds something better.
[/quote]

Again, why would he sign up with them if he knew the limitations they had in being able to produce a head that would give him the flight he wanted. Yes, i've seen White's work for 7 of the heads made for RM. It's really soemthing!

In any case, agree with you on keeping Ping in the bag if he wins. [color="#FF0000"]Doesn't look good for RM though.[/color]
[/quote]



I think it looks equally as bad at this point on Scratch and RM...... all the fanboys who NOW want to jump on here and say..." he isn't contractually bound to play irons" that may be the case..... but this is far from how he was and has been portrayed on this very website.... he has been trumped up as a working/assisting/ and here is the key word...LOYAL owner of scratch...... now he and scratch look as if they have issues.... defend this as nothing out of ordinary if you wish..... I guess I can take the message as the wedges are plenty good enough to play..... but the other clubs scratch is making are just too hard for even a seasoned, highly succesful tour pro to use.....

I really could care less what clubs RM or any other tour pro use.... it has 0 influence on my club decisions.....

[Eynt]

I hope RM wins so all the golf websites will post the WITB