How much timing should an effective swing have?

[golf playa]

I currently Go through so many different swings. One would work for a few days and them start to decompose. After reading Ben hogans book I started to believe that it was a timing issue. So my question is, how much timing should a swing have. I would like more low handicappers and great ball strikers to answers.

 

So is an effective swing a swing where from the top of backswing. You move one muscle and then everything else falls into place resulting in a solid and straight shot.

Or

Is there quite a bit of timing and only hard practice can slowly start to repeat the same swing.

 

Please comment and rate on a scale of 1-10. 1 being the former 10 being the latter.

 

"What I mean is conscious timing during the downswing".

 

[danattherock]

. I would like more low handicappers and great ball strikers to answers.

 

 

You do realize that rules out 90% of your potential replies

 

 

-Dan

 

 

 

[jaskanski]

Timing is everything. Without it, even in a perfect position at the top of the backswing, would be completely ineffective.
Example 1.

Good timing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsHF2LmU5Vg

Example 2.

Bad timing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s50K65PNeBU

[northgolf]

playa,

I'm a 5.1 hcpi, so...

My swing hinges on how I want to move and I have no sense of timing necessary to accomplish the movements. Once my backswing starts it is one continuous motion with the transition being the second key. Definitely once the forward swing has started there is no conscious timing involved in my swing at all (my brain just can't interact with my muscles that fast).

The idea in my backswing is to achieve a good top of the backswing position, the idea in the transition to the forward swing is the motion that leads the chain reaction, once the transition is started the rest just happens.

For the backswing my key this year has been to end the backswing when my shoulders stopped moving and having the right hand in front of the shoulder (no run on). I've had two keys I've used on the forward swing transition this season:earlier in the season it was planting the left heel to start posting up, after that became ingrained the next key was having the butt of the club lead down the swing plane into impact.

I haven't considered timing the release or timing a rollover or anything like that. The one error I'm working on is a tendency to let my shoulders stall on less than full shots. My chipping has been absolutely horrendous this year (yips), or my HCPI would be a few strokes lower.

[dday39]

I don't know if it's timing as much as it is sequencing

[Dariusz J.]

Every human activity is being subdued to timing. The only one thing that can limit the impact of timing is viewing a motion as a cascade of events that happens one after another, as forced consequence of the previous one.
BTW, this is exactly what my work is dedicated to - automation of the golf swing. Until now, the best I could do is the SPC concept describing the cascade of events based on physical forces (shear, torques, etc.) acting on the hard structure of human body (vide: the SPC concept).

Cheers

[pinhigh27]

MHO is that if your swing fundamentals are solid and perfect(we all wish, I know) you could have basically any timing, but as long as you hit the positions it's gonna go how you want it to. However no one has managed to do that, so I think people should find a set "tempo" that fits their swing and go for that. I will say that I feel better players have a quicker tempo.

[juststeve]

I’m not sure why there is such a concern about timing in the golf swing. Perhaps the emphasis comes from teacher trying to market their product by claiming that their golf swing doesn’t rely on timing. Nonsense. All physical activities from walking on up require and element of timing and we are able to learn do those things without much difficulty. Most of us learned the very complex timing involved in walking, running, trotting stopping, going us and down stairs and even walking backwards by the time we were one and with no special training.

Likewise, all golf swings, no matter who teaches them, require timing. The club head must be looking down the target line at the same TIME it strikes the ball. That’s timing. The club head should be accelerating to its maximum speed at the TIME it strikes the ball. That is also timing.

There seems to be a notion that athletic timing is a very difficult thing to learn and should therefore be eliminated, in golf. Again that’s nonsense. When I was at college I played football, basketball and baseball. Although the timing involved in those sports is much more involved than in golf, no one ever proposed that we should seek to eliminate timing from throwing a football or swinging a bat. Timing was to be improved, not eliminated.

Someone please tell me why it should be different in golf.

Steve

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='dday39' timestamp='1288295566' post='2763759']
I don't know if it's timing as much as it is sequencing
[/quote]

Agreed. To the OP, it depends on how we define timing, since it is a very imprecise term as applied to the golf swing.

In my experience, if your static pre swing fundamentals and sequencing are good and your arms are well synched up with the pivot, then there is no need to feel that you must "time" or actively "release" the club. The throw out action of angular acceleration will deliver the clubface as desired. However, that doesn't mean it is easy to learn.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1288302645' post='2763922']There seems to be a notion that athletic timing is a very difficult thing to learn and should therefore be eliminated, in golf. Again that’s nonsense. When I was at college I played football, basketball and baseball. Although the timing involved in those sports is much more involved than in golf, no one ever proposed that we should seek to eliminate timing from throwing a football or swinging a bat. Timing was to be improved, not eliminated.

Someone please tell me why it should be different in golf.

Steve
[/quote]

The answer is very easy - because the other sport disciplines you mentioned are reactive, i.e. based on human reactions to a dynamic situation and is impossible to limit the impact of timing. OTOH, golf is a stationary sport and the impact of timing can and should be limited.

Cheers

[juststeve]

Cheers back at you:

What you say is only partly true and to the extent it is true it is irrelevant.

First, an activity like pitching a ball to the plate is highly dependent on timing and not reactive at all. When and how the ball is released from the hand determines whether the fast ball is at the knees or at the shoulders. We learn that timing without even thinking about it in terms of timing, we simply throw the ball down and away or up and in and the timing is instinctual, but it is precise timing nevertheless.

Secondly, even to the extent we limit your point to timing which is reactionary, your point is irrelevant. As I understand the argument, we need to eliminate timing from the golf swing because it is too hard to master. How can it be too hard to master for a species who is able to throw a football, to a receiver, an uncertain distance away, hitting him in stride, while running at a different speed himself. The timing is exquisite, but instinctual.

So it should be in golf. The relatively simple timing in golf can and always has been learned instinctively by the simple process of hitting balls. In fact it is so natural that some even think they have dispensed with timing altogether, just as they are unaware of the precise timing necessary just to walk to the next tee.

Steve

[northgolf]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1288304497' post='2763973']
...What you say is only partly true and to the extent it is true it is irrelevant....
[/quote]

You spent to much time in the room with the architect in the "Matrix".

[Dariusz J.]

You're only partially right. Golf is much harder than plain throwing or kicking a stationary ball since a) you need to use a tool; b) that tool is designed not the best way it could for such a purpose and c) the object (ball) is very small and the margin of error is huge. Thus, if only a bit of timing issues can be eliminated is an evident bliss for a golfer, IMO.

Cheers

[againstthegrain]

Technique, tempo, and timing.....one must have all 3 for a reliable swing. In the process of changing technique from an improper sequence to a proper one timing the sequence will have to be re-learned or in the case of lengthening or shortening the backswing - timing will have to be adjusted.

[northgolf]

OK, for all those who are stating that timing is involved, just what is being timed? I'd like to understand just what has to be timed - the ball isn't moving so it's not timing the swing for a ball crossing the plate. Are you timing a flip or roll of the wrists (is that really timed, or is it a positional move)? Please explain.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1288359185' post='2764816']
OK, for all those who are stating that timing is involved, just what is being timed? I'd like to understand just what has to be timed - the ball isn't moving so it's not timing the swing for a ball crossing the plate. Are you timing a flip or roll of the wrists (is that really timed, or is it a positional move)? Please explain.
[/quote]

Literally everything is being subdued to timing. Every small motion that influences another motion must be timed well, consciously or unconsciously if we want to achieve optimal results, like in a cascade - bad timing will induce subconscious mind to introduce compensations into the motion with or without success. Starting from the very first move generating takeaway through transition phase and ending at final passing of the energy to the clubhead at impact.
The fact that ball doesn't move helps but also creates some problems since reactive functions of human brain are seriously disabled (it won't react unintentionally to a stationary object).
Imagine a machine - with a proper set up it will produce easily identical results with a stationary object (e.g. golf). If the object is moving, you need to teach the machine to react properly that would demand an incredible number of properly working sensors and a "brain"; it would take ages to produce a machine that would achieve better results than a human (e.g. baseball). It is very easy to produce a machine that achieve better results than a human in golf though. Because it is zillion times easier to exclude the timing issues from golf than from baseball.

Cheers

[againstthegrain]

The most basic timing issue in a golf swing is when to begin the downswing.

[northgolf]

[quote name='againstthegrain' timestamp='1288367135' post='2765035']
The most basic timing issue in a golf swing is when to begin the downswing.
[/quote]

Do you start the downswing at a certain time after beginning the backswing, or do you start the downswing when you reach a certain position? I begin the downswing when I reach a postion, so I don't understand how "timing" is involved. Sequencing, yes, timing, no.

The difference in perception maybe one player saying "I started the downswing to early" vs. another saying "I didn't complete the backswing". I have read of several pro's saying when they get fast that they use "complete the backswing" as a key to deal with the issue.

[razorbird]

[quote name='juststeve' timestamp='1288304497' post='2763973']
Cheers back at you:

What you say is only partly true and to the extent it is true it is irrelevant.

First, an activity like pitching a ball to the plate is highly dependent on timing and not reactive at all. When and how the ball is released from the hand determines whether the fast ball is at the knees or at the shoulders. We learn that timing without even thinking about it in terms of timing, we simply throw the ball down and away or up and in and the timing is instinctual, but it is precise timing nevertheless.

Secondly, even to the extent we limit your point to timing which is reactionary, your point is irrelevant. As I understand the argument, we need to eliminate timing from the golf swing because it is too hard to master. How can it be too hard to master for a species who is able to throw a football, to a receiver, an uncertain distance away, hitting him in stride, while running at a different speed himself. The timing is exquisite, but instinctual.

So it should be in golf. The relatively simple timing in golf can and always has been learned instinctively by the simple process of hitting balls. In fact it is so natural that some even think they have dispensed with timing altogether, just as they are unaware of the precise timing necessary just to walk to the next tee.

Steve
[/quote]


Well said, and obviously by an athlete. And I'd add that really good players [b]ARE[/b] reactionary. [i]They react to the target[/i]. That's where continual evaluation of surroundings and conditions, awareness, and routine come into play.

That's why they [b][u]PLAY GOLF[/u][/b] and do not [i][b]play "GOLF SWING[/b][/i]".

[razorbird]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1288305849' post='2764001']
You're only partially right. Golf is much harder than plain throwing or kicking a stationary ball since a) you need to use a tool; b) that tool is designed not the best way it could for such a purpose and c) the object (ball) is very small and the margin of error is huge. Thus, if only a bit of timing issues can be eliminated is an evident bliss for a golfer, IMO.

Cheers
[/quote]


So what about hockey??? Tipping a 100 mph puck (also relatively small, and not three dimensionally identical in shape) out of the air with a tool designed to be used mostly on the ice, not in the air, and doing so in any multitude of physical orientations on skates.

[razorbird]

[i][b]Timing[/b][/i]: "The regulation of occurrence, pace, or coordination to achieve a desired effect, as in music, the theater, athletics, or mechanics. [b]..."

[i]Tempo: "[/i][/b]relative rapidity or rate of movement, usually indicated by such terms as adagio, allegro, etc., or by reference to the metronome."



Tempo is [b]a VERY UNDERRATED ELEMENT OF TIMING AND SEQUENCE.
[/b][i][b]
Too much speed in the backswing[/b][/i] creates inertia that is very difficult to reverse (makes it hard to transition to downswing).

It's a big reason so many amateurs overswing and get out of position in the first place. It's a major cause of casting/flipping/OTT. Reversing a backswing that has too much kinetic energy is in all likelyhood going to make your chances of good sequencing damn near impossible.

So a conscious effort to regulate your tempo may very well be good medicine. Just make sure you see the forest, and not just the tree.

[Dariusz J.]

[quote name='razorbird' timestamp='1288374798' post='2765196']
So what about hockey??? Tipping a 100 mph puck (also relatively small, and not three dimensionally identical in shape) out of the air with a tool designed to be used mostly on the ice, not in the air, and doing so in any multitude of physical orientations on skates.
[/quote]

Hockey is similar to golf when a player shoots a stationary puck standing over it and if only hockey is played this way all the time (and it isn't since usually all is constantly moving during play) similar studies aimed at getting rid of timing issues could and should be done.

Cheers

[againstthegrain]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1288373287' post='2765162']
[quote name='againstthegrain' timestamp='1288367135' post='2765035']
The most basic timing issue in a golf swing is when to begin the downswing.
[/quote]

Do you start the downswing at a certain time after beginning the backswing, or do you start the downswing when you reach a certain position? I begin the downswing when I reach a postion, so I don't understand how "timing" is involved. Sequencing, yes, timing, no.

The difference in perception maybe one player saying "I started the downswing to early" vs. another saying "I didn't complete the backswing". I have read of several pro's saying when they get fast that they use "complete the backswing" as a key to deal with the issue.
[/quote]


Ideally it starts when the muscles across the abs/shoulders have stretched to the limit due to the hips rotating around and to the left. That is slightly before the backswing is completed. When learning this it's in the conscious mind and IMO a timing issue. Hopefully one can go on to have it ingrained so it's controlled by the subconscious mind and no longer a timing issue.

[dap]

A good swing requires less timing.The very best swings bottom out 4 inches or more in front of the ball.Very often guys like Sergio Garcia will take a divot that starts well in front of the ball.Even if he doesnt't time it well,it might bottom 2 inches in front of the ball but he would still hit it solid.

The hacker who flips and bottoms at the ball or behind it will have to time it perfect to not duff it or skull it.

[gators78]

I didn't think timing was a big deal, then I read Tour Tempo.


Holy h*ll was I wrong.

[gators78]

[quote name='razorbird' timestamp='1288375391' post='2765211']
[i][b]Timing[/b][/i]: "The regulation of occurrence, pace, or coordination to achieve a desired effect, as in music, the theater, athletics, or mechanics. [b]..."

[i]Tempo: "[/i][/b]relative rapidity or rate of movement, usually indicated by such terms as adagio, allegro, etc., or by reference to the metronome."



Tempo is [b]a VERY UNDERRATED ELEMENT OF TIMING AND SEQUENCE.
[/b][i][b]
Too much speed in the backswing[/b][/i] creates inertia that is very difficult to reverse (makes it hard to transition to downswing).

It's a big reason so many amateurs overswing and get out of position in the first place. It's a major cause of casting/flipping/OTT. Reversing a backswing that has too much kinetic energy is in all likelyhood going to make your chances of good sequencing damn near impossible.

So a conscious effort to regulate your tempo may very well be good medicine. Just make sure you see the forest, and not just the tree.
[/quote]


I agree with Tempo being important, but you have it backwards with amateur players being too fast in the backswing.

[tm22721]

Hogan says that dynamic tension at the top 'makes the downswing almost automatic'. The key is to fully windup to make the kinetic sequence repeatable. A lack of tension at the top will manifest as bad timing in the downswing.

[razorbird]

[quote name='Dariusz J.' timestamp='1288375927' post='2765226']
[quote name='razorbird' timestamp='1288374798' post='2765196']
So what about hockey??? Tipping a 100 mph puck (also relatively small, and not three dimensionally identical in shape) out of the air with a tool designed to be used mostly on the ice, not in the air, and doing so in any multitude of physical orientations on skates.
[/quote]

Hockey is similar to golf when a player shoots a stationary puck standing over it and if only hockey is played this way all the time (and it isn't since usually all is constantly moving during play) similar studies aimed at getting rid of timing issues could and should be done.

Cheers
[/quote]

Puck is almost never stationary...and if it is, the carrier is probably not doing his job!

[razorbird]

[quote name='gators77' timestamp='1288378932' post='2765315']
[quote name='razorbird' timestamp='1288375391' post='2765211']
[i][b]Timing[/b][/i]: "The regulation of occurrence, pace, or coordination to achieve a desired effect, as in music, the theater, athletics, or mechanics. [b]..."

[i]Tempo: "[/i][/b]relative rapidity or rate of movement, usually indicated by such terms as adagio, allegro, etc., or by reference to the metronome."



Tempo is [b]a VERY UNDERRATED ELEMENT OF TIMING AND SEQUENCE.
[/b][i][b]
Too much speed in the backswing[/b][/i] creates inertia that is very difficult to reverse (makes it hard to transition to downswing).

It's a big reason so many amateurs overswing and get out of position in the first place. It's a major cause of casting/flipping/OTT. Reversing a backswing that has too much kinetic energy is in all likelyhood going to make your chances of good sequencing damn near impossible.

So a conscious effort to regulate your tempo may very well be good medicine. Just make sure you see the forest, and not just the tree.
[/quote]


I agree with Tempo being important, but you have it backwards with amateur players being too fast in the backswing.
[/quote]

Do I? Too big, too fast, too far, and out of position is much more prevalent in my experience than too short, too slow and in step. The problem is that most players have very little concept of an impact position to start with. If they started there, going back to the top would be a whole different experience. Of course there is always the super slow backswing guy, but he, too is " too fast, too soon" and out of sequence.

[size="5"]I'll just call it "[i][b]too much backswing[/b][/i]" and leave it at that!
[/size]

[razorbird]

[quote name='dap' timestamp='1288378580' post='2765303']
A good swing requires less timing.The very best swings bottom out 4 inches or more in front of the ball.Very often guys like Sergio Garcia will take a divot that starts well in front of the ball.Even if he doesnt't time it well,it might bottom 2 inches in front of the ball but he would still hit it solid.

The hacker who flips and bottoms at the ball or behind it will have to time it perfect to not duff it or skull it.
[/quote]

Very true...but a good swing inherently posseses good timing! If it didn't it wouldn't be good in the first place.