Hogan's Swing

[TourBound3617]

Anything I should remember?

I don't have an instructor, never have. I've learned the game by myself and through research. I used to replicate positions in my swing with videos of Tiger's (which isn't a terrible idea) but I've decided I think Hogan's swing would likely be a better model to look at for my own good. My question is, is there anything in Hogan's swing that shouldn't be replicated? I understand if I were to have his exact swing (just an exaggerated point), I would be quite the player, but obviously I cannot be exact. Should I try to do almost everything just like him?

P.S. the only thing I don't really think I will model with is his weak grip, I don't think I want to do that.

[fats]

Well, he was the ultimate at shaping shots which hasn't been duplicated since...all that and he didn't know ball flight laws...poor guy.

[LYG]

It has been said many times for the past 40+ years...no one successfully COPIED Hogan's swing.

But so many elements are considered highly desirable.

[MrParr1Noid]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1293382486' post='2859437']
Well, he was the ultimate at shaping shots which hasn't been duplicated since...all that and he didn't know ball flight laws...poor guy.
[/quote]

Going against the grain this morning...Are we?

fats, it appears as if the Holidays are treating you kindly...

[dminn23]

Apply your research towards a good instructor. Seriously......I wouldn't lie on this.

[LYG]

I echo what dminn23 says....get a good instructor..otherwise, you will be like 90%+ of all golfers...

relearning the same things every few years -- never truly transforming your swing -- and NEVER improving.

[downtoscratch]

TB said.............. "[color=#1C2837]P.S. the only thing I don't really think I will model with is his weak grip, I don't think I want to do that"[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]IF you don't realize that that grip is an integral part of the sum of Hogan's swing I'd say you are better off leaving the[/color]
[color=#1C2837]whole swing alone. dts[/color]

[fats]

[quote name='downtoscratch' timestamp='1293391828' post='2859627']
TB said.............. "[color=#1C2837]P.S. the only thing I don't really think I will model with is his weak grip, I don't think I want to do that"[/color]
[color=#1C2837]
[/color]
[color=#1C2837]IF you don't realize that that grip is an integral part of the sum of Hogan's swing I'd say you are better off leaving the[/color]
[color=#1C2837]whole swing alone. dts[/color]
[/quote]

How true DTS...the whole deal was centered around his grip and nothing works corectly in that pattern without it.

[jak_bot]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1293382486' post='2859437']
Well, he was the ultimate at shaping shots which hasn't been duplicated since...all that and he didn't know ball flight laws...poor guy.
[/quote]

Fats,

What makes you think he did not know ball flight laws? Do you know something the rest of the Hogan fans do not know? All I know is that he never directly spoke or wrote about ball flight laws (old or new).

[fats]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1293396600' post='2859732']


Fats,

What makes you think he did not know ball flight laws? Do you know something the rest of the Hogan fans do not know? All I know is that he never directly spoke or wrote about ball flight laws (old or new).
[/quote]

Do you honestly think ANYONE ever talked or even thought about ball flight laws in those days? If you do prove it!
Oh, BTW, I certainly wouldn't want to ever disagree with all you HOGAN fans...gosh oh gee. LMAO
Plus plus...according to the S&Ters we knew absolutely nothing about what we were doing only THEY know because they know the ball flight laws...we were all wrong in our thoughts...of course we knew how to spin the ball, but nobody ever called it ball flight laws...we saw it as talent...Foley knocks old players all the time like we are freaking cavemen...LOL...BUT...Hogan did curve the ball better than anyone can today without a freaking roadmap HOW TO guide.

Oh, does actually playing in those days count for anything??

[tembolo1284]

They knew about old laws since Jones' time, and God knows Hogan practiced enough to develop a feel.

[fats]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1293401931' post='2859823']
They knew about old laws since Jones' time, and God knows Hogan practiced enough to develop a feel.
[/quote]

Nobody ever said the term ball flight laws..that is my point. Show me where I'm wrong...school me.

I believe the term OLD laws term came from a way to introduce the New Ball Flight Laws.

I'd also like to actually see the old ball flight laws...anyone have the official copy?

[jak_bot]

I'm just using the terms Old Vs. New because that's pretty much what every discussion thread on every forum uses. Perhaps the correct lexicon should be incorrect and correct ball flight laws.

Jones had a degree in Engineering from Georgia Tech, so he is more than capable of analyzing vectors, resultants, and collisions. Hogan had a copy of a textbook called: [u]Fundamentals of Physics[/u] in his office, for what reason, I have no clue. However, in every Physics textbook the first chapters are usually devoted to vectors and resultants and several chapter after that collisions are covered. Furthermore, if you look at the last image in Five Lessons, one can deduce that Hogan had a qualitative understanding of the correct ball flight laws.

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1293402687' post='2859836']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1293401931' post='2859823']
They knew about old laws since Jones' time, and God knows Hogan practiced enough to develop a feel.
[/quote]

Nobody ever said the term ball flight laws..that is my point. Show me where I'm wrong...school me.

I believe the term OLD laws term came from a way to introduce the New Ball Flight Laws.
[/quote]

True, no one used the term Ball Flight Laws, but did they use the terms: Draw and Fade, and Hook and Slice? If so, Fats, if somebody approached you on the range and said, "Mr. Fats, how do you hit a draw?" or "How do you hit a big sweeping hook around a tree?" What would you tell them?

[fats]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1293406777' post='2859906']


True, no one used the term Ball Flight Laws, but did they use the terms: Draw and Fade, and Hook and Slice? If so, Fats, if somebody approached you on the range and said, "Mr. Fats, how do you hit a draw?" or "How do you hit a big sweeping hook around a tree?" What would you tell them?
[/quote]

I'd tell them the truth...I don't hit a draw or anything that curves left for that matter. I was straight ball to a fade.

[jak_bot]

Ok, Mr. Fats, How do you hit a fade or a big slice?

[fats]

[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1293407440' post='2859919']
Ok, Mr. Fats, How do you hit a fade or a big slice?
[/quote]
That my friend I'll never tell...I hit the fade exactly the way Hogan did, you'd never understand it. As for the big slice I'll leave that to you to explain as I'm positive you are an expert at that shot.

[MrParr1Noid]

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[TourBound3617]

[quote name='dminn23' timestamp='1293387564' post='2859535']
Apply your research towards a good instructor. Seriously......I wouldn't lie on this.
[/quote]


[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1293388518' post='2859557']
I echo what dminn23 says....get a good instructor..otherwise, you will be like 90%+ of all golfers...

relearning the same things every few years -- never truly transforming your swing -- and NEVER improving.
[/quote]


I do understand and agree with what you are saying, and I would love to do so, but monetary reasons would forbid me to pursue something like that. Thank you though.

[dminn23]

[quote name='TourBound3617' timestamp='1293415980' post='2860089']
[quote name='dminn23' timestamp='1293387564' post='2859535']
Apply your research towards a good instructor. Seriously......I wouldn't lie on this.
[/quote]


[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1293388518' post='2859557']
I echo what dminn23 says....get a good instructor..otherwise, you will be like 90%+ of all golfers...

relearning the same things every few years -- never truly transforming your swing -- and NEVER improving.
[/quote]


I do understand and agree with what you are saying, and I would love to do so, but monetary reasons would forbid me to pursue something like that. Thank you though.
[/quote]


In that case, I understand. Get a copy of 5 Lesson's (Hogan's book) and work on what the book says. It is a timeless piece and the illustrations are wonderful. Pay close attention to the grip as your starting point. Strength is a personal preference, but the way the hands are placed on the handle shouldn't be....its vital.

If you can video yourself, learn to be your own instructor. Watching yourself can be eye opening and show you that feel is not real.

[michaelgb888]

Fats, why never tell? Why not help as many people as possible? If you really got it, nobody can possibly do/copy/follow what you will say anyway because nobody here has the experience, mental and physical attributes you had. And even if you do say, I doubt anyone will get it completely as I'm sure typewrittrn words won't be enough to fully explain it.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1293407820' post='2859929']
[quote name='jak_bot' timestamp='1293407440' post='2859919']
Ok, Mr. Fats, How do you hit a fade or a big slice?
[/quote]
That my friend I'll never tell...I hit the fade exactly the way Hogan did, you'd never understand it. As for the big slice I'll leave that to you to explain as I'm positive you are an expert at that shot.
[/quote]

Actions of push fade and result as an pull fade.... and then the journey to find how to get it done

[dpb5031]

[quote name='TourBound3617' timestamp='1293381437' post='2859424']
I don't have an instructor, never have. I've learned the game by myself and through research. I used to replicate positions in my swing with videos of Tiger's (which isn't a terrible idea) but I've decided I think Hogan's swing would likely be a better model to look at for my own good. My question is, is there anything in Hogan's swing that shouldn't be replicated? I understand if I were to have his exact swing (just an exaggerated point), I would be quite the player, but obviously I cannot be exact. Should I try to do almost everything just like him?

P.S. the only thing I don't really think I will model with is his weak grip, I don't think I want to do that.
[/quote]

Have you read Slicefixer's manifesto, the Encyclopedia Texarkana? His teachings are very much Hogan influenced and I found his writings helpful and easy to understand. I'm sure with a search here you can find a link and download a copy.

[happyroman]

[quote name='TourBound3617' timestamp='1293381437' post='2859424']
I don't have an instructor, never have. I've learned the game by myself and through research. I used to replicate positions in my swing with videos of Tiger's (which isn't a terrible idea) but I've decided I think Hogan's swing would likely be a better model to look at for my own good. My question is, is there anything in Hogan's swing that shouldn't be replicated? I understand if I were to have his exact swing (just an exaggerated point), I would be quite the player, but obviously I cannot be exact. Should I try to do almost everything just like him?

P.S. the only thing I don't really think I will model with is his weak grip, I don't think I want to do that.
[/quote]

No matter whose swing you use as a model, you will likely find trying to "replicate positions" in your swing to be frustrating.

The teaching of positions is a relatively recent phenomena, resulting from the advent of video analysis. However, the important thing to remember is that these "ideal" positions are created dynamically by a swinging motion that relies on the use of feel to allow physics and biomechanics to create the swings of the great players we are attempting to emulate.

Trying to build a swing by concentrating on the individual positions is putting the cart before the horse, so to speak. It is much better to try and focus on specific dynamics of the swing, such as posture, swing plane, overall general shape of the swing, weight shift, etc. Study the swings of the greats in order to try and see what fundamentals they have in common that you could incorporate into your own swing, rather than trying to copy positions.

Also, trying to emulate a particular swing may not work very well at all because of differences between your physiology and that of the golfer being copied.

[happyroman]

[quote name='fats' timestamp='1293402687' post='2859836']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1293401931' post='2859823']
They knew about old laws since Jones' time, and God knows Hogan practiced enough to develop a feel.
[/quote]

Nobody ever said the term ball flight laws..that is my point. Show me where I'm wrong...school me.

I believe the term OLD laws term came from a way to introduce the New Ball Flight Laws.

I'd also like to actually see the old ball flight laws...anyone have the official copy?
[/quote]

I believe it's called the PGA Manual, which incorrectly states that the initial direction of the ball is 100% determined by the path.

I agree with you that Hogan and his contemporaries probably never uttered the phrase "Ball Flight Laws." I'm equally sure that they all were aware that a clubface that was opened or closed with respect to the path imparted sidespin.

From there, I imagine they used intuition and practice to learn how to shape shots using that knowledge and feel. It's kind of like how Harvey Penick taught Ben Crenshaw and Tom Kite to hit a high pitch shot. He pointed to a tall tree and told them to go figure out how to hit a ball over it and make it land on the adjoining green. It took them a little while, but they eventually learned how to do it and likely never forgot it.

I believe, therefore, that the [b][i]definition[/i][/b] of the ball flight laws was likely the result of someone's attempt to put an instruction down in writing that the average pro could use to teach their students how to shape shots.

It is my opinion that this is the point where the bus went off the road. Someone tried to describe using words how to perform a task that requires feel, and got it very wrong.

[happyroman]

[quote name='dminn23' timestamp='1293426034' post='2860319']
[quote name='TourBound3617' timestamp='1293415980' post='2860089']
[quote name='dminn23' timestamp='1293387564' post='2859535']
Apply your research towards a good instructor. Seriously......I wouldn't lie on this.
[/quote]


[quote name='LYG' timestamp='1293388518' post='2859557']
I echo what dminn23 says....get a good instructor..otherwise, you will be like 90%+ of all golfers...

relearning the same things every few years -- never truly transforming your swing -- and NEVER improving.
[/quote]


I do understand and agree with what you are saying, and I would love to do so, but monetary reasons would forbid me to pursue something like that. Thank you though.
[/quote]


In that case, I understand. Get a copy of 5 Lesson's (Hogan's book) and work on what the book says. It is a timeless piece and the illustrations are wonderful. Pay close attention to the grip as your starting point. Strength is a personal preference, but the way the hands are placed on the handle shouldn't be....its vital.

If you can video yourself, learn to be your own instructor. Watching yourself can be eye opening and show you that feel is not real.
[/quote]

+1 on the value of feedback when trying to learn the golf swing, whether you use another set of eyes or a video camera. Research has shown that feedback greatly reduces the time required to learn the swing.

An excellent book on how we learn to play golf (not on the specific mechanics, but how we learn to perform the mechanics) is [i]Practice to Learn, Play to Win[/i] by Mark Guadagnoli.