Hard to believe Tiger had Hank Haney as a coach

[Redbird]

Yes, winning 31 times and 6 majors, it's hard to imagine why he kept Hank around so long.

[CryMeARiver]

Haney can't even fix his own driver yips, why on earth would anyone take lessons from him?

[jmplautz]

[quote name='Huskypride28' timestamp='1297448882' post='2968729']
My biggest problem with Haney when he was coaching Barkley was he kept trying to tell us that it wasn't in his head and it was a mechanical thing. He was so far off base with that. It was and still is a mental block for Barkley. So bad Barkley turned to a lefty off the tee!! That's really got to make Haney feel bad. That's like hearing your exgirlfriend turned into a lesbian after she dumped you!
[/quote]

Was watching the GolfFix when Haney was on and they had Barkley call in. They talked about how Barkley will go to Haney for occasional help and that Haney was the one that suggested he go left handed. Haney did admit that Barkley's issues were mental and hoped eventually to get him turned back around right handed.

[Lefthook]

I was mildly shocked when I watched Hank telling Rush to NOT hit the board. To tell a student what not to do instead of telling him what to do is probably the worst pedagogical principle in the universe. To see the frustration on Rush's face when he tried to make sense of the teachers commands was painful. To me this looked like a rookie mistake by the teacher and not something you expect from someone who is highly experienced and recognized as one of the best.

Over to the next student:

When Hank behaved demonstrably uninterested in Ray's own assessment of his faults and fixes I was quite shocked. Ray handed him his mindset on a gold plate - a mindset with some rights and some wrongs obviously. But nevertheless something Hank could have connected to. But instead Hank just ditched Ray's concerns and told him to "do as I say and don't think so much". Ray called it Communism. I thought that was both fun and fitting. I haven't been teaching golf but I have been teaching difficult topics at university level. Most of the time you give the students facts and they rehearse the phrases so they can reproproduce them at their exams. But you basically try to get inside their brains and get them to really connect and relate to pensum. There are a few golden opportunities when they have big homework like a thesis where you can make them take full ownership of the problem they're going to solve and also their own learning process. And that's when they really learn something. That's when they start to understand what the teacher is talking about. What it REALLY means. The key is to create a connection between what they already know and beleve and the stuff that can give them new insight. Hank did the opposite, IMO.

All the three students so far, and Charles in particular has or had right arm issues that seem to go unnoticed by Hank. You need a pitch elbow and pp#3 rotation at the top to go with Hank's pattern. I think Barkley was a natural born hitter who has been trying to swing for quite some time and this was reinforced by Hank. He really struggle during transition to get his right hand in position to give the ball a whack with his right hand. I think Rush has some of the same. Ray was a bit of a switter. But bottom line is that all three of them had thoughts and feelings and anticipations of what a good golf stroke should feel like. And their swing errors are embedded in their feel system and their own personal golf swing theory. And if that system isn't change they will not get long lasting progress no matter how good they are at imitating Hanks drills. I never saw him address that.

It seems to me like Hank gives his students geometrical exercises. The pedagogoc method is learning by imitation. That works well for kids, And possibly for movie actors too. But hardly for middle aged men who play golf for fun, have a remote relationship to their body and a super active right brain.

I am not buying that these three guys are hopeless cases. They are perhaps more busy than most other middle aged men, but they hadn't reached their potential as golfers before Hank entered the picture. And all of them surely put a lot of extra effort into getting better while the series was taken - compared to what they normally do/did (who wouldn't). So, basically, they should improve by just signing on and focusing some more on golf.

I am not buying that Charles need a psychologist or a psychiatrist either. The game of golf is played between the ears and good golf teachers should be able to deal with it.

[ppjn348]

Haney with Burke, funniest thing I've heard in a while!

[Guia]

From observing Hank's show his approach is simplified practice, I expected some sage innovation from him in his instruction. I assume he saves his best for the Pro's he teaches, how else would Tiger stay with him so long.

His TV personality is lacking, but his Wife is a doll.

[Ping33]

[quote name='Sushiyoshi' timestamp='1297449057' post='2968735']
[quote name='Ping33' timestamp='1297440925' post='2968430']
I have watched the RR shows, Barkley was to painful, and have stayed up on Rush, and honestly I have yet to see Hank teach anything. The instruction part of the show has to be on the editing floor, because Rush has truly improved, so something is happening behind the scenes. I would not judge Haney's teaching ability by this show, as it is apparent that the editing team has removed it.
[/quote]

Could be that Rush is practicing more than he ever did.
[/quote]

Rush is practicing, he is taking this seriously as he has stated on his show. He said that since the NFL playoffs he has had the time to now practice where before his schedule would not allow it.

But anyways... I listened to Rush today, open line Friday, and Haney is always a topic. A good example of what we do not see... Rush addressed that sand shot he made on the Bahama show, when he, Haney and I forget his name, pro player, were playing a little three hole match. Rush hit an incredible sand shot from a bunker, 200+ yards, 35 mph cross wind, and put it twelve feet from the pin.

What we did not see after the initial shot... Haney was incredibly impressed and ran down there to the bunker with camera crew in tow and spent a fair amount of time explaining how Rush pulled that shot off. None of the explanation of that shot made it to that particular episode which kind of disappointed Rush, as that is the purpose of the show. Rush also stated that for a less than one minute shot, the Golf Channel film crew went through 14 hours of taping to get that one shot. And I forget how many hundreds of hours has so far been shot that no one will ever see, it is all on the cutting room floor according to Rush.

My thoughts on "The Haney Project" is that it is a fun show to watch, for entertainment purposes only, it is not a golf instruction show in the least.

And yes I am a Rush fan, been listening to him since his Sacramento days and it is fun to see him on TV again.

[jons1]

it just goes to show, it's easy to teach really good golfers, and it's frustrating and time consuming to teach the average hack. and to make it worse, the first two were complete mental cases. they needed a shrink, not HH. plus, hanks style is to make you swing the way he thinks you're suppose to swing a club. that's very different then some teachers that take what you have and make it better. his approach takes a long time to improve. and let's be honest, if it weren't for tiger, he wouldn't be doing this show and he wouldn't be ranked as high as a teacher in the minds of people as he is.

[frank gasaway]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1297522772' post='2970649']
it just goes to show, it's easy to teach really good golfers, and it's frustrating and time consuming to teach the average hack. and to make it worse, the first two were complete mental cases. they needed a shrink, not HH. plus, hanks style is to make you swing the way he thinks you're suppose to swing a club. that's very different then some teachers that take what you have and make it better. his approach takes a long time to approve. and let's be honest, if it weren't for tiger, he wouldn't be doing this show and he wouldn't be ranked as high as a teacher in the minds of people as he is.
[/quote]



You make a great point. There are plenty of teachers that teach A LOOK without knowing how the pieces work. It should be based off what the ball is doing. I would never try to get Dustin Johnson to look like Grant Waite ..... although I think Grant has the best swing in the BIZ. I teach all my mid to high handicappers to draw it but all my good players want to hit fades by choice.

[aliikane]

I'm sure he helps lots of people. He isnt all bad. I prefer the swing philosophies of Butch and Leadbetter. I think hank he made tiger's swing too loose with more movement. Butch made tiger's swing very compact and efficient.

[jons1]

basically butch took what he had and made it better for scoring. driving the ball straighter was one of his #1 things with tiger, and you know what, he drove the ball very well then. he went shorter and taught him all the ways to effect shots in their subtle nature, and tiger soaked it all up. haney tried an extreme makeover with his injuries as a justification, and tiger forced it to work because he's not only stubborn, but wanted to prove everyone wrong (including butch). one guys opinion.

[hbgpagolfpro]

Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

And for every Mark O'meara, there's a Sam Randolph (or maybe a dozen). Never heard of him? Exactly!

[hurricanes7]

[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

isnt it just possible that the 3 golfers just cant get any better because of their talent level, and nothing to do with the coach. very easy to blame the coach, why not blame who is hitting the ball? you cant make chicken salad out of chicken sh.....

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hurricanes7' timestamp='1297557371' post='2971754']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

isnt it just possible that the 3 golfers just cant get any better because of their talent level, and nothing to do with the coach. very easy to blame the coach, why not blame who is hitting the ball? you cant make chicken salad out of chicken sh.....
[/quote]

Hey, great strategy there! If the student fails, it's the student's fault, if the student is successful, take the credit! You can't lose!

[hurricanes7]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1297558034' post='2971779']
[quote name='hurricanes7' timestamp='1297557371' post='2971754']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

isnt it just possible that the 3 golfers just cant get any better because of their talent level, and nothing to do with the coach. very easy to blame the coach, why not blame who is hitting the ball? you cant make chicken salad out of chicken sh.....
[/quote]

Hey, great strategy there! If the student fails, it's the student's fault, if the student is successful, take the credit! You can't lose!
[/quote]

im a coach, thats my philosophy. but have you seen the 3 of them swing, they arent very good. tough to blame hank for that. its very easy to sit back and bash hank from behind your computer when you really dont know the entire story.

[thekru]

Guess I'll never take a driving lesson from Tiger then.

[thekru]

[quote name='ppjn348' timestamp='1297490631' post='2970316']
Haney with Burke, funniest thing I've heard in a while!
[/quote]

Burk is a bum. Lazy freakin' leach.

[hbgpagolfpro]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1297556232' post='2971700']
[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

And for every Mark O'meara, there's a Sam Randolph (or maybe a dozen). Never heard of him? Exactly!
[/quote]

Sure have heard of Sam Randolph...he was a great junior player around the same time Billy Andrade was the cream of the crop. Some guys make it, some don't, no matter who is teaching them. My point is that O'Meara felt strong enough about Hank's teaching to refer Tiger to him. Tiger did pretty well under Hank's guidance. Do we place all the blame for Sam Randolph's failure at the feet of Hank Haney? If we do, then one must place all of Tiger's success from 2005 to 2009 at his feet as well. In both cases, that is nonsense.

Has every professional student that has seen Leadbetter, Harmon, McLean, Foley, Plummer and Bennett, etc, achieved superstardom, or the level of success of O'Meara? No.

Ultimately, the level of success achieved or not achieved is up to the student. From my standpoint, most of the tour players lean too hard on instructors trying to find the holy grail. As a pretty good player turned instructor, Hank gave me a good idea of what I needed to do with my own swing. I've taken that knowledge, and continue to learn and improve from other instructors, and have taken my ballstriking to another level. That knowledge also helps my own students.

In the case of the first two Haney Project students, it was clear that both had a lot of issues that meeting once or twice a month for six months is not going to iron out. It is one thing to disagree with an instructor's method of teaching, but I would venture to guess that most of the instructor's on this forum would be quite proud to show off a body of work half as good as Hank's.

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1297449575' post='2968756']
[i]it seemed that people knowledgeable in the golf swing (from Lee Trevino to Slicefixer, dfw1500, iteach, etc) saw fundamental flaws in Tiger's swing that led to his inconsistency off the tee.[/i]

Well, your post was great to read and then I hit the comment above. I have watched Tiger his entire pro career...dude never hit the driver worth a darn. Swinging out of your shoes with that club tends to lead to problems, ya know?
[/quote]
Ill say he hit it better than all of us in the JR days.

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1297556232' post='2971700']
[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

And for every Mark O'meara, there's a Sam Randolph (or maybe a dozen). Never heard of him? Exactly!
[/quote]
Funny thing is Mark took a lesson from Andy two years ago, after TA3 asked him too. Then he went to Tommy's buddy Abbott, as of late he is still with Abbott.

[hbgpagolfpro]

[quote name='dana dahlquist' timestamp='1297574884' post='2972391']
[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1297449575' post='2968756']
[i]it seemed that people knowledgeable in the golf swing (from Lee Trevino to Slicefixer, dfw1500, iteach, etc) saw fundamental flaws in Tiger's swing that led to his inconsistency off the tee.[/i]

Well, your post was great to read and then I hit the comment above. I have watched Tiger his entire pro career...dude never hit the driver worth a darn. Swinging out of your shoes with that club tends to lead to problems, ya know?
[/quote]
Ill say he hit it better than all of us in the JR days.
[/quote]

I would say he hit it better than everyone on here in 2009 as well... the stats speak for themselves, 12th in total driving in 2009. Considering that he doesn't tee it up at most of the easy venues, that's pretty impressive.

[jons1]

people never accepted HH as his coach. that's the whole story, let the stats fall where they may. HH got sick of hearing about it too. Not one person on the planet, but tiger, understood how he could go from winning 4 majors in a row, to actually seeking someone to do an extreme makeover of his swing to something that wasn't even in the ballpark of his former coach for something like 8 years at that point (through all his success in amateur and pro golf). it ranks up there as one of the most confusing decisions in the game that i've seen in many years, or ever for that matter. the media focused on the publicity / popularity of butch as the root cause, but others speculate the permanent knee damage at that point. no one knows 100% for sure what all went into it, but either way, he very well could have, and likely did, alter the record books with that decision. HH got a lot of perks with the job, i'm sure his bank account was glad he did it, but that man got ran over by the bus almost every week, and even backed up over on the way out just to solidify it. I don't agree with his swing philosophy, but no golf swing instructor deserves the whooping he took. hope he just starts counting large stacks of bills and laughs every time he thinks about it.

[MacBooky]

[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

I really don't see how a student can be the problem if your job is to teach .... unless your not a very good teacher

[V-twin]

Most if not all of us have gone thru some teaching, it is difficult to let go of the past. If your swing is so screwed up than its very hard to trust what they are trying to teach you. The first time you get on the course or get under any pressure(camera on you in the case of the students) you panic and go right back to what you know and trust even if its incorrect. We have all been there until you totally trust the swing changes its going to be difficult. That only comes with correct practice and time. I have a lesson Monday afternoon and I know even though I have been playing well he is going to look at something that can be corrected its a life time of learning.

[hurricanes7]

[quote name='MacBooky' timestamp='1297589801' post='2972579']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

I really don't see how a student can be the problem if your job is to teach .... unless your not a very good teacher
[/quote]

the student can be the problem when it comes to golf because all golfers can only get so much better and then its over.

[tm22721]

This is about entertainment, not golf.

If it were really about golf they would have a solid instructor like iteach. And follow one student's progress for more than a year...

[hbgpagolfpro]

[quote name='golfpros1' timestamp='1297588051' post='2972567']
people never accepted HH as his coach. that's the whole story, let the stats fall where they may. HH got sick of hearing about it too. Not one person on the planet, but tiger, understood how he could go from winning 4 majors in a row, to actually seeking someone to do an extreme makeover of his swing to something that wasn't even in the ballpark of his former coach for something like 8 years at that point (through all his success in amateur and pro golf). it ranks up there as one of the most confusing decisions in the game that i've seen in many years, or ever for that matter. the media focused on the publicity / popularity of butch as the root cause, but others speculate the permanent knee damage at that point. no one knows 100% for sure what all went into it, but either way, he very well could have, and likely did, alter the record books with that decision. HH got a lot of perks with the job, i'm sure his bank account was glad he did it, but that man got ran over by the bus almost every week, and even backed up over on the way out just to solidify it. I don't agree with his swing philosophy, but no golf swing instructor deserves the whooping he took. hope he just starts counting large stacks of bills and laughs every time he thinks about it.
[/quote]

Well said.

[hbgpagolfpro]

[quote name='MacBooky' timestamp='1297589801' post='2972579']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

I really don't see how a student can be the problem if your job is to teach .... unless your not a very good teacher
[/quote]

Don't agree with that statement Mac. Romano is clearly a lousy student. I mean, how many people actually seek out instruction and convince themselves they have to play horribly after the lesson? After the first session with Hank, Romano shoots 61 for 9 holes. Immediately after my 30 minute session with Hank, I hit the ball better than I had in a decade.

Every student is different. With some, it simply takes time to get through. Romano was one of those cases, and his dad dies during the process to. At the end, he comes within a stroke of attaining his goal. If he would keep at it with Hank, and just accept the instruction, he'd reach his goal easily. What I noticed was that his swing didn't look any different at the end. That suggests to me that he didn't work at it.

As an instructor, we can only lead the student to the water, can't make them drink.

[larrybud]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1297459149' post='2969108']
Did you guys not see the shots Rush made this week? Nice little held off shot, punching a wedge in tight with lots of spin. HUGE difference from earlier. He came in hitting flippy sky balls, incapable of imagining the shots he made in episode 4.
[/quote]

I think Rush's improvements are mainly because, according to him, he rarely went to the range. Now all of a sudden he's going 200 reps per day. If you have any semblance of hand-eye coordination just doing that will improve your game. Add to that some setup instruction for the short game and he's put into a position to succeed.