Hard to believe Tiger had Hank Haney as a coach

[larrybud]

[quote name='MacBooky' timestamp='1297589801' post='2972579']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

I really don't see how a student can be the problem if your job is to teach .... unless your not a very good teacher
[/quote]

Well, when the student doesn't do his homework, there's only so much a teacher can do. I have a buddy who took ONE lesson, and just wanted ONE though to come out of it, and didn't want to "change his swing". What chance does any teacher have with that student? Waste of time for both of them.

I go to the range and work on my previous lesson 10 times before my next lesson, within a 3 week period or so. Makes a huge difference.

[Fort Worth Pro]

[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297574560' post='2972384']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1297556232' post='2971700']
[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

And for every Mark O'meara, there's a Sam Randolph (or maybe a dozen). Never heard of him? Exactly!
[/quote]

Sure have heard of Sam Randolph...he was a great junior player around the same time Billy Andrade was the cream of the crop. Some guys make it, some don't, no matter who is teaching them. My point is that O'Meara felt strong enough about Hank's teaching to refer Tiger to him. Tiger did pretty well under Hank's guidance. Do we place all the blame for Sam Randolph's failure at the feet of Hank Haney? If we do, then one must place all of Tiger's success from 2005 to 2009 at his feet as well. In both cases, that is nonsense.

Has every professional student that has seen Leadbetter, Harmon, McLean, Foley, Plummer and Bennett, etc, achieved superstardom, or the level of success of O'Meara? No.

Ultimately, the level of success achieved or not achieved is up to the student. From my standpoint, most of the tour players lean too hard on instructors trying to find the holy grail. As a pretty good player turned instructor, Hank gave me a good idea of what I needed to do with my own swing. I've taken that knowledge, and continue to learn and improve from other instructors, and have taken my ballstriking to another level. That knowledge also helps my own students.

In the case of the first two Haney Project students, it was clear that both had a lot of issues that meeting once or twice a month for six months is not going to iron out. It is one thing to disagree with an instructor's method of teaching, but I would venture to guess that most of the instructor's on this forum would be quite proud to show off a body of work half as good as Hank's.
[/quote]

I know Sam very well and getting him talking about HH is priceless. No love lost at all. You are talking about a guy who was an all american and US am champion who won quickly on tour and then got hooked with HH and I would be willing to bet that not many folks on here could tell you who he was. Its no secret I think most of HH success is the product of marketing and slim on good technique and the worst thing of it was the fact that he claimed Hogan as the inspiration for what he taught when he could not have been much further from Mr. Hogan IMO. Congratulations to him on a successful career and lord knows there are lots of ways to accomplish things in this game but I disagree with about 99% of the things i have heard come out of his mouth or read of his.

[mjen43]

[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]

No such thing as a bad student, only bad teachers

[mjen43]

[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

Taking the greatest player ever and teaching him to swing like mark o'meara sounds like a great idea to me. Yeah right!

[MacBooky]

[quote name='larrybud' timestamp='1297653878' post='2974814']
[quote name='MacBooky' timestamp='1297589801' post='2972579']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1297459425' post='2969117']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1297452346' post='2968857']
I have been taught by an instructor who has worked under Haney and his teaching work. The three stooges he is trying to teach is the problem.
[/quote]
haha....now that could be the root cause.
[/quote]

I really don't see how a student can be the problem if your job is to teach .... unless your not a very good teacher
[/quote]

Well, when the student doesn't do his homework, there's only so much a teacher can do. I have a buddy who took ONE lesson, and just wanted ONE though to come out of it, and didn't want to "change his swing". What chance does any teacher have with that student? Waste of time for both of them.

I go to the range and work on my previous lesson 10 times before my next lesson, within a 3 week period or so. Makes a huge difference.
[/quote]

I agree there's a lot of folks looking for a quick fix and a lot of 'teachers' complying .... $$

However for every quickfix there's probably a student busting his balls off and not improving despite the hard work and loads of lessons.

Explaining once vision and motivating the student to find and go after his or her goals should also be considered part of teaching ...

[jabrch]

[quote name='lkangsterl' timestamp='1297365548' post='2966232']
i wonder that too. he hasn't made any of his students better
[/quote]


I assume the base of his students you are evaluating is limited to Barkley, Romano and Limbaugh? And of them, both Limbaugh and Romano did improve.... That's a silly statement. Haney is a well respected golf instructor.

[V-twin]

If you look at Rush's swing you can see he has eliminated the flying elbow and he is taking the club back on a better plain. That alone is a huge improvement over the first show and swing. If he did this on his own than more power to him. I would suggest it was Hank's instruction.

[hbgpagolfpro]

[quote name='Fort Worth Pro' timestamp='1297659796' post='2975213']
[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297574560' post='2972384']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1297556232' post='2971700']
[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

And for every Mark O'meara, there's a Sam Randolph (or maybe a dozen). Never heard of him? Exactly!
[/quote]

Sure have heard of Sam Randolph...he was a great junior player around the same time Billy Andrade was the cream of the crop. Some guys make it, some don't, no matter who is teaching them. My point is that O'Meara felt strong enough about Hank's teaching to refer Tiger to him. Tiger did pretty well under Hank's guidance. Do we place all the blame for Sam Randolph's failure at the feet of Hank Haney? If we do, then one must place all of Tiger's success from 2005 to 2009 at his feet as well. In both cases, that is nonsense.

Has every professional student that has seen Leadbetter, Harmon, McLean, Foley, Plummer and Bennett, etc, achieved superstardom, or the level of success of O'Meara? No.

Ultimately, the level of success achieved or not achieved is up to the student. From my standpoint, most of the tour players lean too hard on instructors trying to find the holy grail. As a pretty good player turned instructor, Hank gave me a good idea of what I needed to do with my own swing. I've taken that knowledge, and continue to learn and improve from other instructors, and have taken my ballstriking to another level. That knowledge also helps my own students.

In the case of the first two Haney Project students, it was clear that both had a lot of issues that meeting once or twice a month for six months is not going to iron out. It is one thing to disagree with an instructor's method of teaching, but I would venture to guess that most of the instructor's on this forum would be quite proud to show off a body of work half as good as Hank's.
[/quote]

I know Sam very well and getting him talking about HH is priceless. No love lost at all. You are talking about a guy who was an all american and US am champion who won quickly on tour and then got hooked with HH and I would be willing to bet that not many folks on here could tell you who he was. Its no secret I think most of HH success is the product of marketing and slim on good technique and the worst thing of it was the fact that he claimed Hogan as the inspiration for what he taught when he could not have been much further from Mr. Hogan IMO. Congratulations to him on a successful career and lord knows there are lots of ways to accomplish things in this game but I disagree with about 99% of the things i have heard come out of his mouth or read of his.
[/quote]

Not every teacher is good for every student. That's unfortunate that it didn't work out for Sam when he worked with Hank. But, it sounds like he blames Hank for a career that fizzled out, and that doesn't make much sense to me. If he didn't feel comfortable with the information Hank was giving him, why didn't he move on and blossom under someone who may have been a better fit?

Hogan is but ONE inspiration to Hank, and the idea of returning the club to the original shaft plane is definitely inspired by Hogan. How to get there is a different story. Hank is also inspired by Hardy and John Jacobs, so there is definitely a mix of ideas in there.

What I find amazing is how quickly a player can blame an instructor for their failures. It's not as if he is asking you to stand on your head while you swing the club. I found his instruction to be simple and straight forward, and it only took one lesson and a few hours of his teaching seminar for me to grasp his concepts. Do I apply everything that he taught me? No. I take what works for me, and bits and pieces from other sources. I only wish I had a instructor like Hank in my college years to give me some guidance.

What I don't get about tour players. I think they use instructors as a crutch. They have access to the best instructors on the planet, but why do they need to spend so much time with them? Having a second pair of eyes to watch you occasionally I think is a good idea, but several times a week? These guys need to just go out and learn how to score and quit worrying about tinkering so much.

I presently teach at a facility here in Maryland where Jim Estes is the director of instruction. Jim played on tour for a year, and did ok, but realized he had to provide for a family, and without major sponsors, he became a teacher. He is still a phenomenal player. He basically plays once a week in section events, and then late in the summer will play some multi-day events. With that schedule, he regularly shoots under par, and wins alot. He doesn't lean on anyone but himself, because he has all the knowledge he needs to get better.

[hbgpagolfpro]

[quote name='mjen43' timestamp='1297663817' post='2975390']
[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

Taking the greatest player ever and teaching him to swing like mark o'meara sounds like a great idea to me. Yeah right!
[/quote]

Ummm, was there any implication that Hank tried to get Tiger to swing like O'Meara? When you put the two swings side by side, do they look at all alike? No. Yet, he coached them both to 8 majors. Hmmm...sounds like a success story to me.

[thekru]

[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297688936' post='2975646']
[quote name='mjen43' timestamp='1297663817' post='2975390']
[quote name='hbgpagolfpro' timestamp='1297554583' post='2971642']
Love the Monday morning quarterbacking from those with limited knowledge about teaching golf here.

Here is a guy who no one ever thinks about when criticizing Hank...Mark O'Meara. Didn't have a single professional win when he started with Hank, ended up with 34 wins worldwide, including 16 PGA Tour wins and 2 majors. Jim Furyk doesn't even have those numbers yet.

Hank's a great teacher...I know, because he helped me with one lesson, and I have watched him teach other golfers of all abilities and make quick improvements. Remember, most of what you see on TV is to make the show more interesting. You don't have a clue what is going on behind the scenes. Another thing I will point out about Hank is that teachers like you see at his facility, such as Sukki Jang, have been with him for decades. That should tell you something.

In regard to his track record with Tiger, his record speaks for itself, whether you like his methodologies or not.
[/quote]

Taking the greatest player ever and teaching him to swing like mark o'meara sounds like a great idea to me. Yeah right!
[/quote]

Ummm, was there any implication that Hank tried to get Tiger to swing like O'Meara? When you put the two swings side by side, do they look at all alike? No. Yet, he coached them both to 8 majors. Hmmm...sounds like a success story to me.
[/quote]

Well put hb. A lot of people who have complained about HH's method should check out a lot of tour players swings on youtube. You would be surprised how many have a lot of HH theory in them, especially concerning swing and shaft plane. They might not be students of Hanks, but you will be able to see where and why Hank developed some of the theories he teaches.

[Lefthook]

I really enjoyed todays lesson with Hank and Rush at TGC. That was good teaching and good learning, IMO. I particularly enjoyed how Hank tought Rush to diagnose his errors.


[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1297490179' post='2970303'][s]It seems to me like Hank gives his students geometrical exercises. The pedagogoc method is learning by imitation. That works well for kids, And possibly for movie actors too. But hardly for middle aged men who play golf for fun, have a remote relationship to their body and a super active right brain.[/s]
[/quote]

[hbgpagolfpro]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1297831250' post='2981497']
I really enjoyed todays lesson with Hank and Rush at TGC. That was good teaching and good learning, IMO. I particularly enjoyed how Hank tought Rush to diagnose his errors.


[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1297490179' post='2970303'][s]It seems to me like Hank gives his students geometrical exercises. The pedagogoc method is learning by imitation. That works well for kids, And possibly for movie actors too. But hardly for middle aged men who play golf for fun, have a remote relationship to their body and a super active right brain.[/s]
[/quote]
[/quote]

That's precisely why I only needed one lesson from him, along with attending his teaching seminar. His first book was devoted to diagnosing swing errors.