New and Improved Shaft Chart

[Howard_Jones]

Here is EI profiles of the shafts we talk about here - Modus 120 is kind of a "extreme" version of Project X LZ with even more feel of loading due to the weaker mid/upper tip.

 

Here is DG120 again, now with PX LZ and the regular Project X - LZ is simply "curves more" to make that "bending feel", so both LZ 6.0 120 grams and PX 5.5 115 grams is options you might try

I DONT find the EI profile for SHIMADA TOUR, but if im not mistaking, its the shaft now called OBAN CT after Shimada and Oban started to work together, but dont take my word for that, it could be a totally new model, but since weight is the same as the classic Shimada Tour who is very popular in Asia, i think they made a short cut and just renamed it to brand it as a OBAN product. This OBAN CT is kind of like the classic Project X as profile with a slight difference and more feel of butt bending since the weak butt section is longer than PX is.

[JJgolfwrx]

Nice post howard, @Deano802 Modus 120 X-Flex PX LZ 6.0 sound like a good option: They are almost exactly the same weight Modus 120 x (113.5g) and Project LZ 6.0 (114g). As well as their swing weights: Modus 120 X-Flex will swing weight a half swing weight less than the PX LZ 6.0 & Dynamic Gold 120s. When measured for butt frequency Modus 120x & Project LZ 6.0 both measure exactly 386cpm. Keep in mind that the shaft is only one part of the equation. I would recommend you test the shafts and get back to us. Otherwise you might go down the shaft theorectical rabbit-hole.
-JJ

[Deano802]

Thanks, Shimada Tour Mid 115 is actually different to the Oban, It is called the K's 115 in japan, there are a couple of threads on the forum somewhere regarding this. I actually used to use PX 5.5 but moved away for more feel, I the LZ doesn't do much for me.

 

 

[Deano802]

tried the lz and didn’t do much for me, I’ll try and find the modus or will go for dg 120!

[Howard_Jones]

Good, then even i learned something today (Oban vs Shimada), i was not sure but we have seen it before, so i was thinking in that direction, and found OBANs EI profile among Shimada options, but the only shafts with the Shimada name was a "lite" version of the Tour not the regular I only had one set of Shimada Tours on my desk, so i cant say its shafts i know well.The player described them a s better feeling DG and thats the other reason for why i thought the OBAN could be it, due to the long "weak" butt section.

What flex did you try as LZ? was it the 5.5 like your standard PX was?

At least you got some EI profiles to study to better understand what differences this shafts has to offer, i forgot KBS Tour the last time, but here it is.

Butt side is "weak" (even if its stronger than DG 120), then mid section is strong, ending in a weak tip, so its nothing like the others above.

 

 

[Deano802]

 

I tried 6.0, was ok but just noting noticeable in any direction.

[Guest]

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[cabinetboy]

Thanks for this

[Big Dozer]

Can this be re-pinned with the chart available to open? Seems the chart is gone as well...

[third-times-a-charm]

If you are tip trimming a parallel tip raw shaft for flex, but the shaft has a 'base' advertised flex of R/S/X - will it always be in the class of the original raw shaft no matter how much you tip trim? Or will the only thing that is constant be the weight class of each 'base' flex, and the tip trim will determine the flex across the board?

[Howard_Jones]

3 minutes ago, third-times-a-charm said:

If you are tip trimming a parallel tip raw shaft for flex, but the shaft has a 'base' advertised flex of R/S/X - will it always be in the class of the original raw shaft no matter how much you tip trim? Or will the only thing that is constant be the weight class of each 'base' flex, and the tip trim will determine the flex across the board?

If the actual shaft is a multiflex model, we can tip trim to alter flex and flight, but weight remains the same as "grams pr inch", so the net cut wgt will be the same no matter tip trim/flex target
 

[third-times-a-charm]

3 minutes ago, Howard_Jones said:

If the actual shaft is a multiflex model, we can tip trim to alter flex and flight, but weight remains the same as "grams pr inch", so the net cut wgt will be the same no matter tip trim/flex target
 

 

So using the C-Taper .370 Parallel 130g (raw weight) S-flex model as an example. As per KBS it can be tip trimmed from 4.5-6.0 flex. Regardless of how you use their instructions to tip - to any of those flexes for the S 'base' model - it will ALWAYS be an 'S flex' shaft correct? But if you do a 4.5 or 5.0 tip trim it will be a 'soft' S-flex basically soft stepped once or twice? So like an R+? Or can it never be considered an R+ due to the weight always being ~120g after trim, and not much lower like the actual R model.

Edited October 30, 2020 by third-times-a-charm

[Howard_Jones]

2 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

So using the C-Taper .370 Parallel 130g (raw weight) S-flex model as an example. As per KBS it can be tip trimmed from 4.5-6.0 flex. Regardless of how you use their instructions to tip - to any of those flexes for the S 'base' model - it will ALWAYS be an 'S flex' shaft correct? But if you do a 4.5 or 5.0 tip trim it will be a 'soft' S-flex basically soft stepped once or twice? So like an R+? Or can it never be considered an R+ due to the weight always being ~120g after trim, and not much lower like the actual R model.

NO , NOT AT ALL
First of all, there is no standard what so ever to tell whats S, R or X, they are ONLY a label reference in THAT model series AND weight.

Example True Temper XP 95 S is softer that its brother TT XP 115 R
So the "S" label simply means "stronger than XP 95R, but softer than 95 X"...as soon as we move into another weight range...all bets are off.

KBS is a variable thickness design, so if we look at the TAPER version, we CANT identify the flex by looking at stepp patterns, they are all the same, the difference is progressive thicker shaft walls who make them stronger, and for KBS and most other STEEL shafts on the marked, we can count 1 grams as 1 CPM, and we say that 10 CPM is one flex class, with a reference to the FCM system.

As a general guide line, KBS Tour R 110 grams is FCM 4.8, and R+ who is 5 grams up and 115 grams become 5 CPM stronger = FCM 5.3, and its another 5 grams from R+ to S at 120 grams who makes them FCM 5.8....

This Flex letters comes from the TT/RP conversion charts, but is USELESS for all other conversions, so if you buy a KBS S flex blank, TIP TRIM decide what flex it will play to, while weight remains the same.

If you absolutely NEED a flex letter, here is how TT/RP conversion chart looks like

4.0 A+
4.5 R
5.0 = Firm / Uniflex / R+
5.5 = S
6.0 = S+
6.5 = X
7.0 = TX

BUT, this DONT mean a shaft with the label R, S, X have to fit that to "deserve" that flex letter, since the letter is nothing but a reference in its own model series and weight, and CANT and never could be use for compare of flex outside of its own model and weight.

PS! my own arsenal of drivers and other equipment i play my self has flex labels like R, S, X and 5,5...looks like a mess, but they are all the same actual flex. Some shafts comes from models that was rather weak on flex vs label (my X flex shafts) , others from models "strong to flex" (my R flex models), and some is quite normal (my S flex models). AS FCM or butt CPM, they are all FCM 4.8 to FCM 5.2 who is Firm / uniflex / R+ on the TT/RP conversion chart ...but NON of them has a label that say R+, Uniflex or Firm....because the letter has NO reference to that chart, but is a relative reference to its stronger or softer brothers of the same model and weight

Edited October 30, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[third-times-a-charm]

1 hour ago, Howard_Jones said:

NO , NOT AT ALL
First of all, there is no standard what so ever to tell whats S, R or X, they are ONLY a label reference in THAT model series AND weight.

Example True Temper XP 95 S is softer that its brother TT XP 115 R
So the "S" label simply means "stronger than XP 95R, but softer than 95 X"...as soon as we move into another weight range...all bets are off.

KBS is a variable thickness design, so if we look at the TAPER version, we CANT identify the flex by looking at stepp patterns, they are all the same, the difference is progressive thicker shaft walls who make them stronger, and for KBS and most other STEEL shafts on the marked, we can count 1 grams as 1 CPM, and we say that 10 CPM is one flex class, with a reference to the FCM system.

As a general guide line, KBS Tour R 110 grams is FCM 4.8, and R+ who is 5 grams up and 115 grams become 5 CPM stronger = FCM 5.3, and its another 5 grams from R+ to S at 120 grams who makes them FCM 5.8....

This Flex letters comes from the TT/RP conversion charts, but is USELESS for all other conversions, so if you buy a KBS S flex blank, TIP TRIM decide what flex it will play to, while weight remains the same.

If you absolutely NEED a flex letter, here is how TT/RP conversion chart looks like

4.0 A+
4.5 R
5.0 = Firm / Uniflex / R+
5.5 = S
6.0 = S+
6.5 = X
7.0 = TX

BUT, this DONT mean a shaft with the label R, S, X have to fit that to "deserve" that flex letter, since the letter is nothing but a reference in its own model series and weight, and CANT and never could be use for compare of flex outside of its own model and weight.

PS! my own arsenal of drivers and other equipment i play my self has flex labels like R, S, X and 5,5...looks like a mess, but they are all the same actual flex. Some shafts comes from models that was rather weak on flex vs label (my X flex shafts) , others from models "strong to flex" (my R flex models), and some is quite normal (my S flex models). AS FCM or butt CPM, they are all FCM 4.8 to FCM 5.2 who is Firm / uniflex / R+ on the TT/RP conversion chart ...but NON of them has a label that say R+, Uniflex or Firm....because the letter has NO reference to that chart, but is a relative reference to its stronger or softer brothers of the same model and weight

 

Very nice explanation.

 

So in short - a KBS 'stiff' C-Taper parallel shaft tip trimmed to 5.0 is a de-facto R+/firm/uniflex shaft regardless of if it has the 'stiff' label on it. It just happens to be a R+/firm/uniflex shaft that weights 120g rather then the normal 110/115g class. 

[Stuart_G]

13 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

 

Very nice explanation.

 

So in short - a KBS 'stiff' C-Taper parallel shaft tip trimmed to 5.0 is a de-facto R+/firm/uniflex shaft regardless of if it has the 'stiff' label on it. It just happens to be a R+/firm/uniflex shaft that weights 120g rather then the normal 110/115g class. 

 

Sorry but I think you are still missing one of the points Howard is trying to make.   I may be mistaken but you seem to be fixated at trying to assign a flex label to the shaft to force it into some category that can be used to evaluate or judge the stiffness of the shaft relative to other shafts.  The whole point is that all those flex designations are  arbitrary.   They are meaningless in the context of trying to compare the end result (stiffness feel or performance of the shaft) to any other model/weight shaft.

 

A KBS stiff (120gm) c-taper trimmed to 5.0 is going to be softer than a KBS c-taper stiff trimmed to 5.5 or 6.0.   That's the ONLY thing that it really means so don't try to read anything more into it.    e.g.  it's still likely going to feel/play stiffer than a C-taper reg flex (110gm) trimmed to that same 5.0.   It might even feel stiffer than that reg flex trimmed to 5.5 - hard to say since it's so subjective and swing dependent.  The FCM is just a butt frequency measurement.  It's not a complete representation of the stiffness so doesn't tell the whole story.  Actually it's just a pretty small part of the story.   Yes many companies do assign flex labels based on butt frequency but that's part of the reason why they are arbitrary and meaningless.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Stuart_G

[third-times-a-charm]

5 hours ago, Stuart_G said:

 

Sorry but I think you are still missing one of the points Howard is trying to make.   I may be mistaken but you seem to be fixated at trying to assign a flex label to the shaft to force it into some category that can be used to evaluate or judge the stiffness of the shaft relative to other shafts.  The whole point is that all those flex designations are  arbitrary.   They are meaningless in the context of trying to compare the end result (stiffness feel or performance of the shaft) to any other model/weight shaft.

 

A KBS stiff (120gm) c-taper trimmed to 5.0 is going to be softer than a KBS c-taper stiff trimmed to 5.5 or 6.0.   That's the ONLY thing that it really means so don't try to read anything more into it.    e.g.  it's still likely going to feel/play stiffer than a C-taper reg flex (110gm) trimmed to that same 5.0.   It might even feel stiffer than that reg flex trimmed to 5.5 - hard to say since it's so subjective and swing dependent.  The FCM is just a butt frequency measurement.  It's not a complete representation of the stiffness so doesn't tell the whole story.  Actually it's just a pretty small part of the story.   Yes many companies do assign flex labels based on butt frequency but that's part of the reason why they are arbitrary and meaningless.

no I got that 

 

I was trying to simplify it but I guess you can’t really do that 

[Howard_Jones]

21 hours ago, third-times-a-charm said:

no I got that 

 

I was trying to simplify it but I guess you can’t really do that 

Here is a good example of that we cant use flex letters for anything else than i alredy explained. Look at CPM numbers for Modus 130 R, and compare it to what ever flex label in the 125, 120 or 105 series. 130 R is stronger than X flex in all the other weight series.

 

Edited November 1, 2020 by Howard_Jones

[Wardonation]

9 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

Here is a good example of that we cant use flex letters for anything else than i alredy explained. Look at CPM numbers for Modus 130 R, and compare it to what ever flex label in the 125, 120 or 105 series. 130 R is stronger than X flex in all the other weight series.

 

Howard I personally want to thank you for ALL of your contributions to this forum over the years, it is much appreciated.... I have played most shafts and have keep coming back to the PX 6.0... KBS Tour 120 spin too much, any DG seem to spin too much, Modus 120 did not spin enough etc.... All the other shafts feel much better to me than PX but the PX just performs. The problem is I have tennis elbow pretty bad and the PX seems to be the worst (even with vibration inserts). I wonder if you have any idea what graphite options might play the same/ close  to the PX 6.0? I have been waiting for the Mitsubishi MMT 120 stiffs but the more I read about them the more they are built to mimic DG? Thank you for any advice you might have?

[Howard_Jones]

9 hours ago, Wardonation said:

Howard I personally want to thank you for ALL of your contributions to this forum over the years, it is much appreciated.... I have played most shafts and have keep coming back to the PX 6.0... KBS Tour 120 spin too much, any DG seem to spin too much, Modus 120 did not spin enough etc.... All the other shafts feel much better to me than PX but the PX just performs. The problem is I have tennis elbow pretty bad and the PX seems to be the worst (even with vibration inserts). I wonder if you have any idea what graphite options might play the same/ close  to the PX 6.0? I have been waiting for the Mitsubishi MMT 120 stiffs but the more I read about them the more they are built to mimic DG? Thank you for any advice you might have?

It has become 5 years now since i closed my shop, so im not even close to be "up to date" with the options we have now. Weight is always the most important, so i would look in direction of UST and a weight plus minus 120 grams.

@Stuart_G knows the UST program way better than i do, but i expect there to be other PX steel players who have gone graphite who can fill in here.



 

[Stuart_G]

3 hours ago, Howard_Jones said:

It has become 5 years now since i closed my shop, so im not even close to be "up to date" with the options we have now. Weight is always the most important, so i would look in direction of UST and a weight plus minus 120 grams.

@Stuart_G knows the UST program way better than i do, but i expect there to be other PX steel players who have gone graphite who can fill in here.

 

I don't know if there is any exact match but I think the steelfiber i-series would be a closer match than the UST recoils.   Try both the stiff and x-stiff flexes for the 125 or 110 gm version.     The UST recoils would be more like the PXi or PX LZ

[booty4]

Does anybody have the original chart?  I meant to save it years ago but I don't see it on the original pages

[Howard_Jones]

9 hours ago, booty4 said:

Does anybody have the original chart?  I meant to save it years ago but I don't see it on the original pages

You dont need it for anything, its really useless for other than club makers, and limited to the shafts butt CPM, so it should never been published in the first place, it caused more problems than it solved.