Am I in the wrong here...

[PhilsFanDrew]

Shot/Club suggestion etiquette during a casual round

Let me just preface this story by saying that I am a relatively new golfer. I played a couple times in scrambles during college when a buddy needed someone on short notice but I didn't really start playing regularly until this season.

Ok so me and a buddy were playing 9 holes yesterday evening and there were two situations where I questioned his club and shot selection. On a 149 yard par 3 that carries water he played an approach wedge. I said why don't you play a soft 9 or PW because you need to carry the ball to the middle of the green. The pin was to the front of the green but if you don't get the ball on the upper ridge of the green your ball will roll off the green into the water. He hit the AW and rolled into the water. On the 7th hole of this particular course he was set up 20 yards in front of the green (no obstructions, sand, etc) and about 20-25 ft to carry the pin. We help get each others clubs and I asked him "What club do you want?" He responds "60 degree wedge I am going to flop it." I responded "Why? You have nothing but green in front of you the correct play is a bump and run." Needless to say he takes his shot and flops its about 5 yards in front of the green. He was trying a flop shot on an uphill lie and the bounce of hit wedge hit and caused the ball to go straight in the air with no carry at all. I didn't say anything to him like "I told you so."

When we play he generally shoots about 5 or 6 strokes under what I shoot and he has been playing for about 12 years. My question is was I in the wrong to try to talk him out of obvious low percentage shot selections? Mind you I have no problem receiving advice and hearing about alternative approaches or shot selections. I figure the game is hard enough as it is, we are weekend hackers, and any help/constructive criticism can only help our games. We kinda stopped talking to each other after the 7th hole. Was this poor etiquette on my part as a novice trying to offer advice to someone with more experience? Or was he just being stubborn and cranky? If I am in the wrong I will apologize to him but if I am not I may start to consider playing less with him or at all if I can find better playing partners.

[ethanlculver]

To me it sounds like you may have gone a little too far, but I wasn't there and didn't hear the exact way you said those things to him, so I can't say for sure.

I do think his shot and club selections on those particular shots were pretty dumb, and I don't blame you for questioning him. If I was playing with a buddy, I maybe would have asked him why he wanted to do that (nicely) but if he insisted I would have just let him do whatever he wanted. The fact that you two stopped talking to each other after the 7th hole suggests you may have went just a little too far, or weren't nice enough about it--but like I said, I wasn't there so I can't make an accurate judgement. But I also see the stubborn side of him. He went ahead and tried to hit his (pretty dumb) shots and he ended up being incorrect, and maybe he was mad that you were right and got pissed off.

I would apologize to him anyway just to make sure you guys are okay with each other. Just tell him you thought his shot choice wasn't great on those holes and you thought you would suggest something else to him nicely, but tell him you won't try to change his mind anymore and he can play however he wants to.

[1969EType]

When playing with strangers, NEVER say anything about what club they are playing, should play, etc. even if they ask. Just avoid the topic altogether. If you play competitively, this is a violation of the rules for accepting outside assistance and there are penalty strokes involved.


When playing socially, discuss it at the first tee before the first shot. "Hey, I'm new to the game...you're new to the game...what are your thoughts on shot advice, club selection, etc...."

[PhilsFanDrew]

[quote name='MrElculver2424' timestamp='1314489006' post='3524081']
To me it sounds like you may have gone a little too far, but I wasn't there and didn't hear the exact way you said those things to him, so I can't say for sure.

I do think his shot and club selections on those particular shots were pretty dumb, and I don't blame you for questioning him. If I was playing with a buddy, I maybe would have asked him why he wanted to do that (nicely) but if he insisted I would have just let him do whatever he wanted. The fact that you two stopped talking to each other after the 7th hole suggests you may have went just a little too far, or weren't nice enough about it--but like I said, I wasn't there so I can't make an accurate judgement. But I also see the stubborn side of him. He went ahead and tried to hit his (pretty dumb) shots and he ended up being incorrect, and maybe he was mad that you were right and got pissed off.

I would apologize to him anyway just to make sure you guys are okay with each other. Just tell him you thought his shot choice wasn't great on those holes and you thought you would suggest something else to him nicely, but tell him you won't try to change his mind anymore and he can play however he wants to.
[/quote]

Fair enough. I think my tone with him was similar to the tone he uses when he questions a shot I take. I stopped talking to him because he was pissed off. I wasn't sure if it was at me or the outcome of his shot so when someone gets mad I keep my mouth shut and let them talk when they want to. Maybe it was a combination of embarrassment and anger over his shots that he didn't talk to me. I just kind of get the feeling that he doesn't appreciate or respect any of my advice because I am relatively new to playing the game and he's not. I will explain to him that my intentions were to help him make an easier play/higher percentage play and not to throw his game under the bus. Thanks.

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='PhilsFanDrew' timestamp='1314488276' post='3524055']
Let me just preface this story by saying that I am a relatively new golfer. I played a couple times in scrambles during college when a buddy needed someone on short notice but I didn't really start playing regularly until this season.

Ok so me and a buddy were playing 9 holes yesterday evening and there were two situations where I questioned his club and shot selection. On a 149 degree par 3 that carries water he played an approach wedge. I said why don't you play a soft 9 or PW because you need to carry the ball to the middle of the green. The pin was to the front of the green but if you don't get the ball on the upper ridge of the green your ball will roll off the green into the water. He hit the AW and rolled into the water. On the 7th hole of this particular course he was set up 20 yards in front of the green (no obstructions, sand, etc) and about 20-25 ft to carry the pin. We help get each others clubs and I asked him "What club do you want?" He responds "60 degree wedge I am going to flop it." I responded "Why? You have nothing but green in front of you the correct play is a bump and run." Needless to say he takes his shot and flops its about 5 yards in front of the green. He was trying a flop shot on an uphill lie and the bounce of hit wedge hit and caused the ball to go straight in the air with no carry at all. I didn't say anything to him like "I told you so."

When we play he generally shoots about 5 or 6 strokes under what I shoot and he has been playing for about 12 years. My question is was I in the wrong to try to talk him out of obvious low percentage shot selections? Mind you I have no problem receiving advice and hearing about alternative approaches or shot selections. I figure the game is hard enough as it is, we are weekend hackers, and any help/constructive criticism can only help our games. We kinda stopped talking to each other after the 7th hole. Was this poor etiquette on my part as a novice trying to offer advice to someone with more experience? Or was he just being stubborn and cranky? If I am in the wrong I will apologize to him but if I am not I may start to consider playing less with him or at all if I can find better playing partners.
[/quote]

For me, the key is questioning shot choice before the shot is played. That would get under my skin.

How would you feel if you stepped up to a tee box on a straight-away par 4, asked for your driver, and he says: "you know, you actually are probably better off hitting a hybrid here than slicing another one into the woods"...

If you want to have that discussion, the time to do it is after the hole. Phrase it as a question: "why did you try the flop when it seemed like the bump-and-run was an easier play?"

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='PhilsFanDrew' timestamp='1314489552' post='3524096']
I will explain to him that my intentions were to help him make an easier play/higher percentage play.
[/quote]

Unsolicited advice from somebody who doesn't play as well as he does is probably not something he wants to hear.

[PhilsFanDrew]

[quote name='1969EType' timestamp='1314489484' post='3524093']
When playing with strangers, NEVER say anything about what club they are playing, should play, etc. even if they ask. Just avoid the topic altogether. If you play competitively, this is a violation of the rules for accepting outside assistance and there are penalty strokes involved.


When playing socially, discuss it at the first tee before the first shot. "Hey, I'm new to the game...you're new to the game...what are your thoughts on shot advice, club selection, etc...."
[/quote]

I know etiquette when playing with strangers. Outside of introducing myself before playing or saying, "nice shot/putt" I don't really talk much to strangers unless they ask me something.

I never play competitively and don't intend to because a) I am not that good and b) I think it will make me stress over the game and not relax.

This wasn't the first time that we played together. We played about 3 or 4 other times prior yesterday without any problems. Up until yesterday I never was presented with a situation to question his selection. I guess I assumed, perhaps wrongly, that we were both on equal footing and neither of us were immune from criticism/help.

[ethanlculver]

I just thought of this and thought I'd share it:

The better-skilled player isn't always the smarter player. He may be a [i]better golfer[/i] than you, but you may be a [i][b]smarter[/b][/i] golfer than him.

I score in the low 90s, maybe high 80s, I'm not that good of a golfer, but sometimes I swear I can make better decisions than some pros.

[PhilsFanDrew]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1314489750' post='3524105']
[quote name='PhilsFanDrew' timestamp='1314488276' post='3524055']
Let me just preface this story by saying that I am a relatively new golfer. I played a couple times in scrambles during college when a buddy needed someone on short notice but I didn't really start playing regularly until this season.

Ok so me and a buddy were playing 9 holes yesterday evening and there were two situations where I questioned his club and shot selection. On a 149 degree par 3 that carries water he played an approach wedge. I said why don't you play a soft 9 or PW because you need to carry the ball to the middle of the green. The pin was to the front of the green but if you don't get the ball on the upper ridge of the green your ball will roll off the green into the water. He hit the AW and rolled into the water. On the 7th hole of this particular course he was set up 20 yards in front of the green (no obstructions, sand, etc) and about 20-25 ft to carry the pin. We help get each others clubs and I asked him "What club do you want?" He responds "60 degree wedge I am going to flop it." I responded "Why? You have nothing but green in front of you the correct play is a bump and run." Needless to say he takes his shot and flops its about 5 yards in front of the green. He was trying a flop shot on an uphill lie and the bounce of hit wedge hit and caused the ball to go straight in the air with no carry at all. I didn't say anything to him like "I told you so."

When we play he generally shoots about 5 or 6 strokes under what I shoot and he has been playing for about 12 years. My question is was I in the wrong to try to talk him out of obvious low percentage shot selections? Mind you I have no problem receiving advice and hearing about alternative approaches or shot selections. I figure the game is hard enough as it is, we are weekend hackers, and any help/constructive criticism can only help our games. We kinda stopped talking to each other after the 7th hole. Was this poor etiquette on my part as a novice trying to offer advice to someone with more experience? Or was he just being stubborn and cranky? If I am in the wrong I will apologize to him but if I am not I may start to consider playing less with him or at all if I can find better playing partners.
[/quote]

For me, the key is questioning shot choice before the shot is played. That would get under my skin.

How would you feel if you stepped up to a tee box on a straight-away par 4, asked for your driver, and he says: "you know, you actually are probably better off hitting a hybrid here than slicing another one into the woods"...

If you want to have that discussion, the time to do it is after the hole. Phrase it as a question: "why did you try the flop when it seemed like the bump-and-run was an easier play?"
[/quote]

Honestly I would welcome advice before hitting my shot because it could potentially help me that day.

I don't think your example is very fair either. There is a big difference between offering shot advice and downright mockery of someones game. I don't think anything I said would be construed by most people as mockery. It was simply offering an alternative, higher percentage play.

[stone71]

Put simply, you're getting into the guys head before he plays his shot. Leave him be. talk about it after the hole, if you must.

[mliebs]

I never comment on club selections made by anyone, I do my own thing and let the other guys play their own game. If I'm with friends we throw a couple of jabs but everyone seems to know where to draw the line.

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='PhilsFanDrew' timestamp='1314490212' post='3524129']
It was simply offering an alternative, higher percentage play.
[/quote]

Higher percentage [i]for you[/i]. How do you know that he hasn't been practicing flops all summer, and been fighting off a major streak of bladed chips?

You've essentially called him out and told him that you don't think he can execute the shot. At least, that's how I would feel if I were in his shoes.

And I'd be really unhappy if you convinced me to change, and I bladed the chip across the green.

[seoulbrother]

As others have said, unsolicited advice from others is kind of frowned upon. But, I'm willing to bet he was trying to show off with hitting some of those risky/long shots.

[PhilsFanDrew]

[quote name='MrElculver2424' timestamp='1314490007' post='3524118']
I just thought of this and thought I'd share it:

The better-skilled player isn't always the smarter player. He may be a [i]better golfer[/i] than you, but you may be a [i][b]smarter[/b][/i] golfer than him.

I score in the low 90s, maybe high 80s, I'm not that good of a golfer, but sometimes I swear I can make better decisions than some pros.
[/quote]

I agree with this. I am new to playing the game but I have followed the game for awhile. Another buddy I play with who shoots high 70s, low 80s says I am not losing many strokes on poor shot selection, but poor execution of my shots because of inconsistent ball striking and distance control.

[lander215]

Yeah...you were out of line. Unless he asks you or pays you to be his instructor, keep your opinion of his game to yourself or the 19th hole.


Nothing wrong with asking a partner what he just hit as a comparison to your decision of club choice.

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='lander215' timestamp='1314490680' post='3524153']
Nothing wrong with asking a partner what he just hit as a comparison to your decision of club choice.
[/quote]

Except that it is actually against the rules (unless you've already hit)...

[596]

I play alot with a guy that hits in the mid 80's, I'm a 6 hdc. We play enough that we are actually helping each other. I SUCK out of the sand, he;s actually pretty darn good at it. He SUCKS at chipping so I'm helping him with that. We help each other and most of the time it's after we have hit the shot. Though sometimes if we are just practicing we will discuss options before the shot.

You need to speak with your friend about the advise. We find that even if we are helping each other we have to keep comments and instruction/comments to a minium of 1 maybe 2 things per round.

We have discussed this a number of times and we make sure we both agree so we don't piss each other off.

BTW - I've never seen a 149 degree hole, is that uphill or down

[PhilsFanDrew]

[quote name='lander215' timestamp='1314490680' post='3524153']
Yeah...you were out of line. Unless he asks you or pays you to be his instructor, keep your opinion of his game to yourself or the 19th hole.


Nothing wrong with asking a partner what he just hit as a comparison to your decision of club choice.
[/quote]

But it is ok for him to offer unsolicited advice to me because he knows I am a novice? The only reason I made the suggestion was because he made suggestions to me in the past. Am I just more welcomed to advice because I am new and want to hear every possible option to potentially improve my game?

[raynorfan1]

[quote name='PhilsFanDrew' timestamp='1314491982' post='3524199']
But it is ok for him to offer unsolicited advice to me because he knows I am a novice? The only reason I made the suggestion was because he made suggestions to me in the past. Am I just more welcomed to advice because I am new and want to hear every possible option to potentially improve my game?
[/quote]

Nope. Etiquette applies regardless of handicap. He shouldn't offer unsolicited advice to you either.

[PhilsFanDrew]

[quote name='596' timestamp='1314491826' post='3524193']
I play alot with a guy that hits in the mid 80's, I'm a 6 hdc. We play enough that we are actually helping each other. I SUCK out of the sand, he;s actually pretty darn good at it. He SUCKS at chipping so I'm helping him with that. We help each other and most of the time it's after we have hit the shot. Though sometimes if we are just practicing we will discuss options before the shot.

You need to speak with your friend about the advise. We find that even if we are helping each other we have to keep comments and instruction/comments to a minium of 1 maybe 2 things per round.

We have discussed this a number of times and we make sure we both agree so we don't piss each other off.

BTW - I've never seen a 149 degree hole, is that uphill or down
[/quote]

Thanks for your advice and catching my typo. Yeah like I said both of us aren't good. He shoots low 90s. I shoot mid to high 90's. A lot of times we talk to each other about the shots we are going to take because basically when we play it is very relaxed and we are not competing against each other but trying to have fun. I guess I kinda looked at it like we prior to yesterday that we were like caddies for each other and were helping each other out. But after that 7th hole I am now questioning if that is the approach going forward and from the majority of the responses on here it sounds like we should stop that practice now before we can't stand each other and lose our friendship over ego and bravado.

[lander215]

[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1314491395' post='3524179']<br />[quote name='lander215' timestamp='1314490680' post='3524153']<br />Nothing wrong with asking a partner what he just hit as a comparison to your decision of club choice.<br />[/quote]<br /><br />Except that it is actually against the rules (unless you've already hit)...<br />[/quote]<br /><br /><br />

No...because I said "partner", not "competitor". There is a difference per the RoG.

[cmac8]

[quote name='PhilsFanDrew' timestamp='1314490212' post='3524129']
[quote name='raynorfan1' timestamp='1314489750' post='3524105']


For me, the key is questioning shot choice before the shot is played. That would get under my skin.

How would you feel if you stepped up to a tee box on a straight-away par 4, asked for your driver, and he says: "you know, you actually are probably better off hitting a hybrid here than slicing another one into the woods"...

If you want to have that discussion, the time to do it is after the hole. Phrase it as a question: "why did you try the flop when it seemed like the bump-and-run was an easier play?"
[/quote]

Honestly I would welcome advice before hitting my shot because it could potentially help me that day.

I don't think your example is very fair either. There is a big difference between offering shot advice and downright mockery of someones game. I don't think anything I said would be construed by most people as mockery. It was simply offering an alternative, higher percentage play.
[/quote]



I would recommend worrying about your your own game. Unless someone asks for your opinion, I would keep it to yourself.

[Hawkeye77]

Totally in the wrong. You say you have gotten advice from him but you welcome it. Seems he does not, and I get the sense you may have been looking for the opportunity without knowing whether he was okay with it.

Unless you know for sure someone you are playing with wants your strategic input, you should never be commenting on any other player's shot selection before the shot is played, and with serious reservations after if you are going to be critical.

[boriqua'72]

Definitely in the wrong... Golf is a personal game. If he wants to flop it up there for no apparent reason he has every right to and you or anyone else shouldn't say anything about it.. Furthermore when you questioned his decision making he probably felt even stronger about hitting the shot he wanted to hit. It's up to him to learn and figure out what to do next time... not anyone else. What would you have done if he would've taken your advice and the results ended up the same? Just play your game and don't worry about anyone elses is my advice to you.

[RRFireblade]

I think you know who wants advice and who doesnt. If you dont know then assume they dont want it till they do ask.

I never tell anyone what i think they should do anyway, if i really want to help, at most i might see their shot and say something like "hmm, Id probably just bump and run that one huh?

[jabrch]

I have a friend who gets really huffy when his shot selection is criticized. I have stopped discussing it with him - just not worth it. People do what they do for a reason...and unless he is your partner in an event, it's really up to him and he is a big boy who doesn't need to be second guessed...even if you are right.

[mozgolf]

yeah just let him be. I think this is about the most irksome thing I can imagine on a course. A higher capper telling you how to play a shot, particularly before you play it and already have a club in hand. Even if he is right, its not the time to load his head with doubt. With a good mate discuss it afterwards if at all

[StarFleetGolfer]

Yes sorry but that would annoy me too. Do it on the range or after the round. My partner does this sometimes even though I am three clubs longer than him, he thinks everyone hits their clubs the same distance. No advice right before someone plays their shot, it is one of the more annoying things a person can do.

[puttingmatt]

The Best Advice When Playing !!!! Is None !!!

[larrybud]

Definitely not cool to question club selection before the shot is made. Only time I ever do that is playing with a partner and discussing a shot that has a lot of options (for either of us).

However, with friends, we'll talk about shots that we made after the round.