How hard is it to hit a blade?

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='goldenwave77' timestamp='1322004722' post='3838233']
Game Improvement clubs are for players who are already good--say what?!


I learned to play with garbage-picked old, mismatched set of irons--blades from the early '60's...different wts.--lengths--some steel shafts, an old aluminum shafted club, etc. Could hit the ball pretty good distance but wildly inconsistent --but knew I had decent athletic ability. When I got tired of hitting 9-irons with my tmt. tennis player's swing that never rose more than 10' feet off of the ground I went to get some instruction. A pro just looked at me, shook his head..."Boy we got a lot of work." Spent next 2 mos. on practice range every day completely tearing down old, handsy, flippy rt-hand and rt.-side dominated swing. (This was between summers of college & worked nights, graveyard shift, to pay for the golf lessons and balls.) Learned to hit left-hand only, rt-hand off at impact, cured inside out swing path with 2 by 4 (ouch when u missed) but eventually learned to control the ball and learned to hit a nice high controlled fade---would score in 80's with lousy short game, and used to play the Black Course about 3 times/week. About 2 weeks before the end of summer, the pro said "OK, now u can consider buying a set of worthwhile clubs---before it was a waste of time." He got me a great deal on a set of (almost new) Hogan Apex Cameos with persimmon woods that were gorgeous and precision instruments. The stiff shafts and matched weighting helped consistency. Went out for college team, and did not make it, but played respectably and had a lot of fun playing the TPC--Hartford CT course which was our home college course.


Fast forward 5 or six yrs. after law school and work kept me off the golf course...Had my Apexes ripped off when my car was broken into in Bronx one day. By this time, playing less golf....tried a set of Ping knockoffs---stiff shaft Pinseeker brand clubs...thinking that I'm playing less now, maybe not in as good a shape, etc. but was curious to revive my old swing/game/etc. Short story long---never could recover the feel of my old swing, or any swing, for that matter---could not tell where the ball was going--lost distance and hit ball exccessively high...maybe the clubs were mismatched but my Hogan blades could easily have been adjusted (bent) using a loft/lie machine, but the new sticks were not...or so I was told. No feel--could not tell where ball was going, etc. Eventually sold the Pinseekers for 25% on the dollar (reason enough to buy real Pings), went and bought myself a set of '88 Hogan redline Apexes with Taylor Made metal woods which WERE more consistent and easier to hit than the persimmons, though not really longer. Started to learn more Hogan-based swing which is flatter and easier on the back than older upright swing I'd been taught. Game started to approach my older efforts but not quite as good but I'm a weekend player now so I'm somewhat OK with that. Put down the sticks for another 10+ yrs. while 3 kids are growing up.

4 months ago, my kid is at camp and wants to try golf because its 95 degrees plus and soccer/tennis/basketball is a labor. I get interested in golf again, pick up the Hogan Apexes, and am back playing again...again trying to work on some swing issues but hitting the ball really well at times. Picked up a set of Ping Eye 2's for $25 at a garage sale, and next day at range AFTER being warmed up, and hitting already for a while, pick up the Pings....WOW...I'm smoking the ball--about 10-15 yds. longer with irons and tighter dispersion pattern---the ball is readily workable---these are GREAT...still less feedback than the blades but results are consistent. Next day, come back, leave the Hogans in the trunk, replace them with the Pings, and take them out....really psyched for these new irons....twenty minutes later I'm pushing the ball, pulling the ball, even snap hooking a few...obviously the clubs are not the problem---but for the life of me I can't tell what the ball is doing---to me this is the real issue with "game improvement" clubs.

Back to trusty old Hogans--when u hit them flush, they are like crack...just so sweet. If u can't compress the ball, then these are not for you, but if you can't and want to learn to do that, blades, IMHO, will help u to do that more easily...GOLF is hard enough without feedback---why remove that element which is, after all, why practice and being sensitive to feel (and touch) is important.: If your practice sessions are not focused, and u are not "tuned in" to the feel of what u are doing---then how are you going to change/alter/develop the body movements that you're trying to achieve...when I find the "slot" perfectly, and am on plane, in the downswing u know it before u hit it---the club sort of feels lighter on the downswing....but when u hear that "soft melon" sound of the ball compressing u really know you're doing something right--don't get that sound or feel with cavity backs, or even forged cavity backs (have tried Mizune 60's which are in between, in feel, a blade and a pure Ping-type club)

.....SO...if ur on the Tour, and mishitting a 5-iron maybe costs u money (or your card) by leaving the ball short in the bunker instead of maybe a 20 footer which u can sometimes make, then yes, the more forgiving club maybe makes more sense....BUT--those guys (and gals) understand their swing, and are able to repeat it at a different level than someone playing occasionally or someone trying to be better....I've had rounds of golf with game improvement clubsthat made me just want to walk off the course---no clue as to what I was doing....with blades--u can dial back the swing, hit 3/4 irons, punch the ball on an approach and still play somewhat reasonably...and i find that the feel comes back a lot more quickly than swinging flat out (or even partially) with the game improvement, "Frankenstein" clubs... where u better watch the ball closely because u can't tell where it went from the feel...

Just my 2 cents....
[/quote]

Very good points. I've played with many golfers who play SGI irons and NEVER compress the ball.
SGI irons will allow those players to play reasonably well just spooning the ball around the course.
Nothing wrong with that. Those guys would probably not play otherwise.

I've also played with very good players with SGIs who do compress the ball. I'm of the opinion
these players could play with virtually any iron but simply prefer the added forgiveness the SGIs
provide.

I believe the trend is toward more forgiveness, especially judging by what the tour players are
bagging these days. No one is playing irons of the like Hogan or Nicklaus was playing and I
don't think any are looking back with longing, except maybe Mr. Woods.

[MtlJeff]

As someone who loves GI and SGI, i'll be the first to admit blades look awesome in the bag. I bought a used set last year just to mess around with. A lot of people will post that anyone can play with blades and that's true, it's not like they are impossible to hit. But even as a 1 handicap right now i would never play in a qualifier or tournament with them, and i'm a pretty good iron player. You can easily lose a shot here and there because the forgiveness is just not the same. Golf to me is about the score only. If i was just playing for fun all the time maybe i'd own a set and play them more

[Geohans]

[quote name='Jimbud' timestamp='1321898145' post='3831487']
Hitting blades (and I don't mean just hitting the 9 iron on the range) is sort of like sitting on a park bench in New York's Central Park and having a Victoria's Secret model jog by and she stops to tie her running shoe on your park bench. You can ask her out on a date but it's probably not going to work out.
[/quote]


Speak for yourself.

[lee36328]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1321977988' post='3836187']
[quote name='rkangrah' timestamp='1321878094' post='3830203']
If you play with any kind of Blade irons, how hard is it to hit a blade? Why do you play with blade irons?

Also Does a blade go shorter than a cavity back if being hit by a golfer with average swing speed (around 80 Mph with a 5 iron)?
[/quote]


1. A blade isn't harder to hit than a GI improvement iron...it just doesn't do very much to help you if you MIS-Hit it. The COG is higher so there is less help getting the ball into the air at lower swing speeds....and there is little perimeter weighting so you lose a lot more distance if you miss the sweetspot versus a cavity-back iron. Also blades put out a LOT of vibration if you miss the sweetspot by more than a fraction of an inch...and that doesn't really feel very good. Especially if it is cold out.

2. People play blades because the characteristics of a blade that are a disadvantage to the high-handicap/low swingspeed player, are an advantage to the skilled player. The lack of offset gives the skilled player greater ability to control the trajectory of the ball, and makes him less likely to hook it. The higher COG makes it easier to launch the ball on a lower, more penetrating trajectory. The softer metals that forged blades are made out of, and the lack of perimeter weighting puts more spin on the golf ball, which makes it easier to shape shots and get them to stop quickly. The skilled player hits the sweetspot with enough consistency that the relative lack of forgiveness is not much of an issue. Lastly, the consistent face thickness of a blade versus a thin-faced cavity back makes controlling distance easier because there are no "hot spots" on the clubface.

3. Distance depends on what kind of club you are comparing it too. Blades generally tend to be made of softer metals than are game-improvement clubs; their design puts more spin on the ball; and generally have weaker lofts than do game-improvement clubs. So yes. compared to a strong-lofted, stainless steel, perimeter weighted iron...a shot from a blade will not go as far. While the distance loss compared to a forged, carbon-steel cavity-back of similar loft will be neglible. An 80 mph 5 iron is more than enough clubhead speed to flight a bladed iron properly....But people who play blades are looking to maximize control over their irons shots...not maximize distance. So the question is how much distance (up to a full club compared to some GI irons) are you willing to sacrifice for that increased level of control.
[/quote]

I like this post, informative and well-explained. This is why I read these blade vs game improvement threads; I like what I learn from them.

[gir2]

I read a lot of information out there about how hard blades were to hit, that when I finally hit some, I was surprised at how easy they were to hit.

I really don't find blades any harder to hit than anything else. Ask yourself, how does a cavity on the back of the club, that you don't even see at address, make a club easier to hit? It doesn't, at least for me. As far as distance, what a cavity does is take away mass from the sweetspot where you want it.

Not too mention the ability to bend a blade and adjust the lie angles and lofts. That's a big reason why I currently play blades, because I can bend them down nice and flat.

[edwinr70]

I actually hit blades better than cavity backs. I don't like perimeter weighting and thick soles. Plus forged just feels better.

[jaskanski]

Of course, you could always buy a set of high-end JDM blades and put them in a display rack over your fireplace. That way, you won't have to worry about how hard they are to hit at all.

[RRFireblade]

I think the better question is how much easier is it to hit a GI or SGI?

I hear people post things like "stupid easy", point and shoot or whatever and of course the fact of touring pros who play GI or SGIs always get tossed out there but if they were soooo silly easy to hit and offer sooooo much more forgiveness you'd think people would be destroying statistical and scoring records left and right. If I'm not mistaken, most all tour stats have hovered in the same ranges acrossed the board for the last 10-20 years even including average US tracked handicaps which I believe have not changed more than a decimal point or so in the same 20 or so years.

I think blades are no harder to hit than a GI is easy to hit. The level of miss that creates the majority of lost strokes in either case is not caused or cured by the size of the club head. The assumption seems always to be that the range of miss is limited to fairway or deep rough/lost in woods. If your miss is 30+ yards left or right no amount of forgiveness will forgive that or be reflected in a score card. Its more realistic that the amount of "forgiveness" is considerably less than what's needed to effect scoring dramatically which is why there has been no change in scores since the days when GIs and SGIs didn't even exist as an option.

IMO.

(<----------- Doesn't drink the cool aid. )

[Geohans]

[quote name='edwinr70' timestamp='1322033831' post='3840105']
I actually hit blades better than cavity backs. I don't like perimeter weighting and thick soles. Plus forged just feels better.
[/quote]

A surprising number of people hit blades better. . . . including me.

Moving weight back from the "center line axis" of the shaft changes the dynamics at impact. For lots of folks, it's not good.

There's no question that a blade can help MANY people learn how to get into the right position at impact. A hugely successful swing aid, "Tourstriker," is doing the same thing in an exaggerated way.

Size of sweetspot is overrated in terms of forgiveness-- the real forgiveness is in finding the right shaft.

And if you haven't hit an MP68/69, you have no idea how forgiving a blade can be.

[bfrey64]

[quote name='hittindagreens' timestamp='1321899931' post='3831625']
Isn't there more mass behind the sweet spot of a blade? I recently switched from vr split cavity to vr blades (same lofts) and the blades fly a half club longer. The strike feels more solid too. The blades do have s300 high launch and the splits had s300 so I don't know how much this effects distance. Since the debate has begun again, I had to throw this in.
To the OP, play what suits your eye and decide what your goals are.
My first year I played full cavity irons. This year switched to players CB which made the full cavs look like shovels to me. Switching from players CB to blades recently makes the split cavs look clunky now.
Hitting the blades makes the game more fun for me now. But I also play 4-5 rounds per week and I worked very hard improving my swing.
I also suggest trying some out on the course before you make the switch.
[/quote]
I have to agree with the notion about the vr splits and vr tw blades. I found the blades much easier to compress and more forgiving then the splits. I was rather disappointed with them and really wished I held on to the vr tw blades. I just had too much trouble playing the 3 iron of the blades, but they offered a much better feel and playability compared to other sgi irons. I have to say after jumping around several sets, I ended up playing several sets this year. I thought playing a set of callaway x20 tours were just the best blend of playability and forgiveness, but I found my ball striking would tend to get a little sloppy. I also found that they were a little too flat and I found that my swing would loose timing and I really suffered in the short irons. Two weeks ago I found a set of i10's which are very small compared to the x20 tours and gamed them. I found that it was much easier to play them. There was a swing weight issue and I sent them back to ping to get corrected. So I decided to pull my old set of titleist 762's out. I think I forgot how good it felt to hit the ball that well. Shots were going we're I intended and the clubs did not look like a shovel from over the ball. I think sgi are great if you grew up playing then and learned how to live them. Its funny how things come around full circle in the end. I learned how to play the game with a set of Wilson blades and loved the feel and control, but I think I will stick with the i10's and the titleist iron for awhile. It's pure preference in the end, you have to play what looks good and feels good to you. If its a shovel, then play it, if it's a blade, play it. In the end that all of our right. Good luck!!!

[Guia]

Off center hits with blades will not be as forgiving as with a cavity back. If you are a consistent ball striker you will not notice a huge difference, generally cavity backs are a little longer because of the metal used, but some notice no difference. You can effectively work the ball with any type of iron, cavity or blade.

Many people buy blades and don't hit them well/consistently because they get macho and get them with shafts that are too stiff for their swing. I see many sets of irons for sale that are fairly new with 6.0 or stiffer shafts. Most golfers can't effectively use these stiffer shafts. ill fitted shafts attribute greatly to the belief that blades are for elite golfers.

[mantan]

[quote name='ClarkGrswld4' timestamp='1321932375' post='3834613']
[quote name='major123' timestamp='1321880354' post='3830277']
The blade is definitely harder to hit. But the feel of the blade is unmistakeable, anybody that has played blades will tell u that. A blade can sometes go a little shorter because they are so soft but it's a minimal amount of distance that is lost. If u have a wear mark on your irons now u can hit blades. [b]Plus it makes u a better player because it teaches u to hit more in the center[/b]. Also the control u get to work the ball is excellent u can play with trajectory all day and move the ball like no other
[/quote]

I've always found this to be a comical statement...a blade does not teach you to hit the center of the clubface more often...a better swing does.

i play blades fwiw
[/quote]

I completely agree. 99% of golfers don't understand their own swing faults. A blade isn't going to magically whisper what their swing faults are. They are just going to get worse results from the mishits they would have with any other club. If someone was getting lessons, I could see where blades me give them a better idea of how well they are striking the ball. But I don't buy the idea that somebody can take a blade, a bucket of ball and magically improve their swing.

[Polo-D]

[quote name='mantan' timestamp='1322066935' post='3841277']
[quote name='ClarkGrswld4' timestamp='1321932375' post='3834613']
[quote name='major123' timestamp='1321880354' post='3830277']
The blade is definitely harder to hit. But the feel of the blade is unmistakeable, anybody that has played blades will tell u that. A blade can sometes go a little shorter because they are so soft but it's a minimal amount of distance that is lost. If u have a wear mark on your irons now u can hit blades. [b]Plus it makes u a better player because it teaches u to hit more in the center[/b]. Also the control u get to work the ball is excellent u can play with trajectory all day and move the ball like no other
[/quote]

I've always found this to be a comical statement...a blade does not teach you to hit the center of the clubface more often...a better swing does.

i play blades fwiw
[/quote]

I completely agree. 99% of golfers don't understand their own swing faults. A blade isn't going to magically whisper what their swing faults are. They are just going to get worse results from the mishits they would have with any other club. If someone was getting lessons, I could see where blades me give them a better idea of how well they are striking the ball. But I don't buy the idea that somebody can take a blade, a bucket of ball and magically improve their swing.
[/quote]

+1

[Geohans]

Sorry. . . . but WHAT? A blade certain does help identify swing faults. It doesn't magically whisper them--- that is what's known as a straw man argument. It is meaningless, counterproductive, and shows the person making such a statement to have no argument.

A blade gives you FEEDBACK. You feel it, you see it in the ball flight. An SGI is like the modern math teacher who lets his student think that 2 plus 2 equals 5-- as long as the student has high self esteem.

Bobby Clampett summed it up nicely in his book, The Impact Zone: BLADES ARE THE TRUE GAME IMPROVEMENT IRONS. Notice he did not say "score improvement." I am not disputing the fact that many people will score better with GI irons.

A mediocre swing with an SGI will still give acceptable results. That is not the case with blades. If you are not the type to get frustrated easily, learning with a blade will indeed force you to find a way to get a satisfactory trajectory. The only way to do that will be with a downward strike, hands in front of the ball. These are two of the four "imperatives" which are present in any good golf swing.

SGIs let you have fun, without developing certain fundamentals. Nothing wrong with that! Some people develop great swings with SGIs. But for many others, blades will help them more. Some people learn best from a teacher who is precise in his criticism, fair, and even harsh sometimes; other people need their self esteem stroked.

We all learn differently. This is NOT to say there aren't advantages to PLAYING with GIs, possibly even for most people.

And please, let's ban the phrase "You've got no business playing blades." This is one of the most ignorant statements ever made on this board or any other.

[Polo-D]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322068627' post='3841405']
Sorry. . . . but WHAT? A blade certain does help identify swing faults. It doesn't magically whisper them--- that is what's known as a straw man argument. It is meaningless, counterproductive, and shows the person making such a statement to have no argument.

A blade gives you FEEDBACK. You feel it, you see it in the ball flight. An SGI is like the modern math teacher who lets his student think that 2 plus 2 equals 5-- as long as the student has high self esteem.

Bobby Clampett summed it up nicely in his book, The Impact Zone: BLADES ARE THE TRUE GAME IMPROVEMENT IRONS. Notice he did not say "score improvement." I am not disputing the fact that many people will score better with GI irons.

A mediocre swing with an SGI will still give acceptable results. That is not the case with blades. If you are not the type to get frustrated easily, learning with a blade will indeed force you to find a way to get a satisfactory trajectory. The only way to do that will be with a downward strike, hands in front of the ball. These are two of the four "imperatives" which are present in any good golf swing.

SGIs let you have fun, without developing certain fundamentals. Nothing wrong with that! Some people develop great swings with SGIs. But for many others, blades will help them more. Some people learn best from a teacher who is precise in his criticism, fair, and even harsh sometimes; other people need their self esteem stroked.

We all learn differently. This is NOT to say there aren't advantages to PLAYING with GIs, possibly even for most people.

And please, let's ban the phrase "You've got no business playing blades." This is one of the most ignorant statements ever made on this board or any other.
[/quote]

So.......in order to develop a tour caliber swing, i just need blades, go to to the driving range, practice by myself, and judging the ball flight, get some feedback, and BY MYSELF, with out proper instruction I will correct swing flaws.
And no matter if I get proper instruction by a pro, and practice with GI or SGI irons I will develop a crappy swing?

Sorry but I don't agree.

[glauser]

I find playing blades or forged player CBs with thinner toplines and soles help me keep my ball flight realistic. Anytime I've hit GI or SGI irons they just balloon like crazy on me, regardless of what shaft they play host to. I think GI/SGI irons are great for people who have trouble getting the ball in the air.

[HoldTheLag]

Not sure yet but I know now that switching to steel shafts after having played graphite all this time really sucks!

[Geohans]

[quote name='Polo-D' timestamp='1322085769' post='3842751']
[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322068627' post='3841405']
Sorry. . . . but WHAT? A blade certain does help identify swing faults. It doesn't magically whisper them--- that is what's known as a straw man argument. It is meaningless, counterproductive, and shows the person making such a statement to have no argument.

A blade gives you FEEDBACK. You feel it, you see it in the ball flight. An SGI is like the modern math teacher who lets his student think that 2 plus 2 equals 5-- as long as the student has high self esteem.

Bobby Clampett summed it up nicely in his book, The Impact Zone: BLADES ARE THE TRUE GAME IMPROVEMENT IRONS. Notice he did not say "score improvement." I am not disputing the fact that many people will score better with GI irons.

A mediocre swing with an SGI will still give acceptable results. That is not the case with blades. If you are not the type to get frustrated easily, learning with a blade will indeed force you to find a way to get a satisfactory trajectory. The only way to do that will be with a downward strike, hands in front of the ball. These are two of the four "imperatives" which are present in any good golf swing.

SGIs let you have fun, without developing certain fundamentals. Nothing wrong with that! Some people develop great swings with SGIs. But for many others, blades will help them more. Some people learn best from a teacher who is precise in his criticism, fair, and even harsh sometimes; other people need their self esteem stroked.

We all learn differently. This is NOT to say there aren't advantages to PLAYING with GIs, possibly even for most people.

And please, let's ban the phrase "You've got no business playing blades." This is one of the most ignorant statements ever made on this board or any other.
[/quote]

So.......in order to develop a tour caliber swing, i just need blades, go to to the driving range, practice by myself, and judging the ball flight, get some feedback, and BY MYSELF, with out proper instruction I will correct swing flaws.
And no matter if I get proper instruction by a pro, and practice with GI or SGI irons I will develop a crappy swing?

Sorry but I don't agree.
[/quote]


Wow. Sorry. Reading comprehension is clearly not a requirement for posting on this board. Good luck to you sir..

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322068627' post='3841405']
Sorry. . . . but WHAT? A blade certain does help identify swing faults. It doesn't magically whisper them--- that is what's known as a straw man argument. It is meaningless, counterproductive, and shows the person making such a statement to have no argument.

A blade gives you FEEDBACK. You feel it, you see it in the ball flight. An SGI is like the modern math teacher who lets his student think that 2 plus 2 equals 5-- as long as the student has high self esteem.

Bobby Clampett summed it up nicely in his book, The Impact Zone: BLADES ARE THE TRUE GAME IMPROVEMENT IRONS. Notice he did not say "score improvement." I am not disputing the fact that many people will score better with GI irons.

A mediocre swing with an SGI will still give acceptable results. That is not the case with blades. If you are not the type to get frustrated easily, learning with a blade will indeed force you to find a way to get a satisfactory trajectory. The only way to do that will be with a downward strike, hands in front of the ball. These are two of the four "imperatives" which are present in any good golf swing.

SGIs let you have fun, without developing certain fundamentals. Nothing wrong with that! Some people develop great swings with SGIs. But for many others, blades will help them more. Some people learn best from a teacher who is precise in his criticism, fair, and even harsh sometimes; other people need their self esteem stroked.

We all learn differently. This is NOT to say there aren't advantages to PLAYING with GIs, possibly even for most people.

And please, let's ban the phrase "You've got no business playing blades." This is one of the most ignorant statements ever made on this board or any other.
[/quote]

have you played SGI's? I really found the "no feedback" thing to be a myth. You can tell exactly where on the face you hit them, the ball just goes further and straighter. It's not like a poor swing with an SGI feels like a good swing. I don't really take exception to your post but the feedback comment is an often exaggerated difference.

I would just say blades provide harsher feedback. To use the math teacher argument, SGI' s tell you that you are wrong. Blades scream at you that you are wrong

[mantan]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322068627' post='3841405']
Sorry. . . . but WHAT? A blade certain does help identify swing faults. It doesn't magically whisper them--- that is what's known as a straw man argument. It is meaningless, counterproductive, and shows the person making such a statement to have no argument.

A blade gives you FEEDBACK. You feel it, you see it in the ball flight. An SGI is like the modern math teacher who lets his student think that 2 plus 2 equals 5-- as long as the student has high self esteem.

Bobby Clampett summed it up nicely in his book, The Impact Zone: BLADES ARE THE TRUE GAME IMPROVEMENT IRONS. Notice he did not say "score improvement." I am not disputing the fact that many people will score better with GI irons.

A mediocre swing with an SGI will still give acceptable results. That is not the case with blades. If you are not the type to get frustrated easily, learning with a blade will indeed force you to find a way to get a satisfactory trajectory. The only way to do that will be with a downward strike, hands in front of the ball. These are two of the four "imperatives" which are present in any good golf swing.

SGIs let you have fun, without developing certain fundamentals. Nothing wrong with that! Some people develop great swings with SGIs. But for many others, blades will help them more. Some people learn best from a teacher who is precise in his criticism, fair, and even harsh sometimes; other people need their self esteem stroked.

We all learn differently. This is NOT to say there aren't advantages to PLAYING with GIs, possibly even for most people.

And please, let's ban the phrase "You've got no business playing blades." This is one of the most ignorant statements ever made on this board or any other.
[/quote]

In that same book Bobby Clampett talks about how few golfers truly understand the imperatives/dynamics of proper impact. I think Clampett would agree that blades make sense as a game improvement iron IF the golfer understand what he or she is doing wrong.

How many times have you seen someone at the range with a fatal golf flaw bang through a bucket of balls with no clue why all his shots are inconsistent? ( Let's say there is Joe Golfer out there who has a common fault like a very inside takeaway that leads to an over the top cast or a super weak grip. If you put a blade in that guys hand without the knowledge, the only way he's going to figure it out is by trial and error and maybe a lucky guess. But the odds of them figuring out all of the imperatives and how they work together are pretty long. Most golfers are clueless what their swing actually looks like. (How many of us were shocked the first time we saw our swings on tape and it wasn't the textbook swing we visualized in our heads.)

Making the leap to understand a proper pivot, loading the club and delivering a lagged clubhead via the pivot is a LOT to expect someone to do on their own. Especially when they are fighting the frustration of hitting a club that's a lot harder to hit than their SGI.

Like I said in my original post, I can buy it being a tool to enhance lessons or with someone who truly understand what they are trying to fix. But the idea mostgolfers can just pick up a blade and figure it all out with a little sweat equity is a bit naive.

[Geohans]

I have made several forays into the SGI world; each time I went back to players' clubs.

My worse experience was with Ping. I would groove a nice 120yd pitching wedge; then with the same swing and same feel/feedback, I'd look up to see the ball dropping 8 yards short into a bunker, or 10 yards long flying the green. I had no sense of how/why it happened, no info to tell me if I had hit it on the heel, toe, or whatever.

That was just MY experience. I know lots of great golfers do great stuff with Pings. But we are all different.

And yes I will acknowledge that most people need some guidance in order to improve with any type of clubs. Your goals and your learning style will determine whether blades or shovels will be most helpful. But if a shovel is covering for your mini-flip at impact, you are unaware of how close you are to turning it into a maxi-flip that ruins your day. That was my case anyway.

[nbg352]

[quote name='pivot driven' timestamp='1322013813' post='3839063']
[quote name='goldenwave77' timestamp='1322004722' post='3838233']
Game Improvement clubs are for players who are already good--say what?!


I learned to play with garbage-picked old, mismatched set of irons--blades from the early '60's...different wts.--lengths--some steel shafts, an old aluminum shafted club, etc. Could hit the ball pretty good distance but wildly inconsistent --but knew I had decent athletic ability. When I got tired of hitting 9-irons with my tmt. tennis player's swing that never rose more than 10' feet off of the ground I went to get some instruction. A pro just looked at me, shook his head..."Boy we got a lot of work." Spent next 2 mos. on practice range every day completely tearing down old, handsy, flippy rt-hand and rt.-side dominated swing. (This was between summers of college & worked nights, graveyard shift, to pay for the golf lessons and balls.) Learned to hit left-hand only, rt-hand off at impact, cured inside out swing path with 2 by 4 (ouch when u missed) but eventually learned to control the ball and learned to hit a nice high controlled fade---would score in 80's with lousy short game, and used to play the Black Course about 3 times/week. About 2 weeks before the end of summer, the pro said "OK, now u can consider buying a set of worthwhile clubs---before it was a waste of time." He got me a great deal on a set of (almost new) Hogan Apex Cameos with persimmon woods that were gorgeous and precision instruments. The stiff shafts and matched weighting helped consistency. Went out for college team, and did not make it, but played respectably and had a lot of fun playing the TPC--Hartford CT course which was our home college course.


Fast forward 5 or six yrs. after law school and work kept me off the golf course...Had my Apexes ripped off when my car was broken into in Bronx one day. By this time, playing less golf....tried a set of Ping knockoffs---stiff shaft Pinseeker brand clubs...thinking that I'm playing less now, maybe not in as good a shape, etc. but was curious to revive my old swing/game/etc. Short story long---never could recover the feel of my old swing, or any swing, for that matter---could not tell where the ball was going--lost distance and hit ball exccessively high...maybe the clubs were mismatched but my Hogan blades could easily have been adjusted (bent) using a loft/lie machine, but the new sticks were not...or so I was told. No feel--could not tell where ball was going, etc. Eventually sold the Pinseekers for 25% on the dollar (reason enough to buy real Pings), went and bought myself a set of '88 Hogan redline Apexes with Taylor Made metal woods which WERE more consistent and easier to hit than the persimmons, though not really longer. Started to learn more Hogan-based swing which is flatter and easier on the back than older upright swing I'd been taught. Game started to approach my older efforts but not quite as good but I'm a weekend player now so I'm somewhat OK with that. Put down the sticks for another 10+ yrs. while 3 kids are growing up.

4 months ago, my kid is at camp and wants to try golf because its 95 degrees plus and soccer/tennis/basketball is a labor. I get interested in golf again, pick up the Hogan Apexes, and am back playing again...again trying to work on some swing issues but hitting the ball really well at times. Picked up a set of Ping Eye 2's for $25 at a garage sale, and next day at range AFTER being warmed up, and hitting already for a while, pick up the Pings....WOW...I'm smoking the ball--about 10-15 yds. longer with irons and tighter dispersion pattern---the ball is readily workable---these are GREAT...still less feedback than the blades but results are consistent. Next day, come back, leave the Hogans in the trunk, replace them with the Pings, and take them out....really psyched for these new irons....twenty minutes later I'm pushing the ball, pulling the ball, even snap hooking a few...obviously the clubs are not the problem---but for the life of me I can't tell what the ball is doing---to me this is the real issue with "game improvement" clubs.

Back to trusty old Hogans--when u hit them flush, they are like crack...just so sweet. If u can't compress the ball, then these are not for you, but if you can't and want to learn to do that, blades, IMHO, will help u to do that more easily...GOLF is hard enough without feedback---why remove that element which is, after all, why practice and being sensitive to feel (and touch) is important.: If your practice sessions are not focused, and u are not "tuned in" to the feel of what u are doing---then how are you going to change/alter/develop the body movements that you're trying to achieve...when I find the "slot" perfectly, and am on plane, in the downswing u know it before u hit it---the club sort of feels lighter on the downswing....but when u hear that "soft melon" sound of the ball compressing u really know you're doing something right--don't get that sound or feel with cavity backs, or even forged cavity backs (have tried Mizune 60's which are in between, in feel, a blade and a pure Ping-type club)

.....SO...if ur on the Tour, and mishitting a 5-iron maybe costs u money (or your card) by leaving the ball short in the bunker instead of maybe a 20 footer which u can sometimes make, then yes, the more forgiving club maybe makes more sense....BUT--those guys (and gals) understand their swing, and are able to repeat it at a different level than someone playing occasionally or someone trying to be better....I've had rounds of golf with game improvement clubsthat made me just want to walk off the course---no clue as to what I was doing....with blades--u can dial back the swing, hit 3/4 irons, punch the ball on an approach and still play somewhat reasonably...and i find that the feel comes back a lot more quickly than swinging flat out (or even partially) with the game improvement, "Frankenstein" clubs... where u better watch the ball closely because u can't tell where it went from the feel...

Just my 2 cents....
[/quote]

Very good points. I've played with many golfers who play SGI irons and NEVER compress the ball.
SGI irons will allow those players to play reasonably well just spooning the ball around the course.
Nothing wrong with that. Those guys would probably not play otherwise.

I've also played with very good players with SGIs who do compress the ball. I'm of the opinion
these players could play with virtually any iron but simply prefer the added forgiveness the SGIs
provide.

I believe the trend is toward more forgiveness, especially judging by what the tour players are
bagging these days. No one is playing irons of the like Hogan or Nicklaus was playing and I
don't think any are looking back with longing, except maybe Mr. Woods.
[/quote]


I play with Callaway Razr X graphite. I practice with '86? Hogan Apex PC . Just so I know when my swing is getting into trouble. Not when it's too late to do something about it. I love the forgiveness of the Razr's. It's just that I don't always trust what I see when I'm hitting them. The Hogans never lie.

[avrag]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1322110811' post='3845309']
[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322068627' post='3841405']
Sorry. . . . but WHAT? A blade certain does help identify swing faults. It doesn't magically whisper them--- that is what's known as a straw man argument. It is meaningless, counterproductive, and shows the person making such a statement to have no argument.

A blade gives you FEEDBACK. You feel it, you see it in the ball flight. An SGI is like the modern math teacher who lets his student think that 2 plus 2 equals 5-- as long as the student has high self esteem.

Bobby Clampett summed it up nicely in his book, The Impact Zone: BLADES ARE THE TRUE GAME IMPROVEMENT IRONS. Notice he did not say "score improvement." I am not disputing the fact that many people will score better with GI irons.

A mediocre swing with an SGI will still give acceptable results. That is not the case with blades. If you are not the type to get frustrated easily, learning with a blade will indeed force you to find a way to get a satisfactory trajectory. The only way to do that will be with a downward strike, hands in front of the ball. These are two of the four "imperatives" which are present in any good golf swing.

SGIs let you have fun, without developing certain fundamentals. Nothing wrong with that! Some people develop great swings with SGIs. But for many others, blades will help them more. Some people learn best from a teacher who is precise in his criticism, fair, and even harsh sometimes; other people need their self esteem stroked.

We all learn differently. This is NOT to say there aren't advantages to PLAYING with GIs, possibly even for most people.

And please, let's ban the phrase "You've got no business playing blades." This is one of the most ignorant statements ever made on this board or any other.
[/quote]

have you played SGI's? I really found the "no feedback" thing to be a myth. You can tell exactly where on the face you hit them, the ball just goes further and straighter. It's not like a poor swing with an SGI feels like a good swing. I don't really take exception to your post but the feedback comment is an often exaggerated difference.

I would just say blades provide harsher feedback. To use the math teacher argument, SGI' s tell you that you are wrong. Blades scream at you that you are wrong
[/quote]

Myths:
SGI irons provide no feedback.
You cannot work SGI irons.
You "grow out of SGI irons".
You have to "upgrade to players' irons" once you reach a certain hcp.

Truths (for [u][b]me[/b][/u], whose US index would be 14.6):
I enjoy playing golf more when playing my MP-32s than when playing my X-22s.
I do not see a difference in my scores playing either type of iron (which might be due to the fact that I usually hit the center of the club face most of the time in the heel-toe dimension, while my misses are more in the fat-thin dimension).
I enjoy playing golf more when playing my MP-32s than when playing my X-22s.
I do not see a difference in my GIR numbers playing either type of iron (which may be due to the fact that I play golf courses with tiny greens most of the time).
I enjoy playing golf more when playing my MP-32s than when playing my X-22s.
My misses with the MP-32s tend to be in less trouble than my misses with the X-22s (which might be due to the fact that the golf courses I play most of the time are links style and do not have many forced carries).
I find it easier to hit MP-32s out of the semi rough than X-22s.
Did I already mention that I enjoy playing golf more when playing my MP-32s than when playing my X-22s?

Edit:
MP-32s are [u][b]no blades[/b][/u]. Titleist 710 MBs would be no fun to play for me. Tried them, found them extremely difficult to hit. Same is true for Wilson Staff FG 62s.
Edit 2:
For some reason, MP-68s are also fun to hit and [u][b]to me[/b][/u] not that difficult to play. Same is true for Callaway Protos, and their successors.

[iGolfism]

I just wanted to offer my humble opinion...

i love blades. up till recently i played honma and miura blades... i love the feel.
but i've just received my set of Miura Forged PP9003. yes i hit it further but thats cause the lofts are jacked up... but on the upside, instead of 9 irons to go from 3iron to my gap wedge, i only need 8 irons, so it allows for one more wedge (if i so choose to), but i digress...

for feel, the Miuras really do give it up, and while i scored well with muscle back blades, the forgiveness of the PPs do help my score even more (3-4 strokes avg). my swing speed is high, and normally GI clubs do balloon on me, but with my C-tapers in my PPs, i can control the ball flight and its much lower. i feel this combination works well for a little forgiveness without losing either feel, or control (shot shaping is still quite fun and easy).

i have not compared like for like as the shafts are differing, but the feel really aren't all that differen between the two. also i like thin grips with one layer under (i'm 6ft but wear size M footjoy gloves) which regardless of shaft or head if i do not flush it out the centre of the face, there will always be sting and bad vibes through my hands regardless of SGI/ GI or Player (muscle back blades) heads.

oh just one caveat, with my blades, when i thin the ball, it goes low and straight but 10 yards short... with the Miura PP9003s and the Gi/ forgiveness built in, when i thin the ball, it flies 10-15yards off the back of the green, which actually screws up my score on most of my local courses as the back is usually a harsh dense of crap. so instead of a simple chip on or bunker shot, i may have to drop or bash the ball out wasting a stroke.

so perhaps if you want the feel and forgiveness, this is a reasonable compromise. also the top line of the PP9003 is quite thin and pleasing to blade players. hope this helps.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1322056196' post='3840425']
I think the better question is how much easier is it to hit a GI or SGI?

I hear people post things like "stupid easy", point and shoot or whatever and of course the fact of touring pros who play GI or SGIs always get tossed out there but if they were soooo silly easy to hit and offer sooooo much more forgiveness you'd think people would be destroying statistical and scoring records left and right. If I'm not mistaken, most all tour stats have hovered in the same ranges acrossed the board for the last 10-20 years even including average US tracked handicaps which I believe have not changed more than a decimal point or so in the same 20 or so years.

I think blades are no harder to hit than a GI is easy to hit. The level of miss that creates the majority of lost strokes in either case is not caused or cured by the size of the club head. The assumption seems always to be that the range of miss is limited to fairway or deep rough/lost in woods. If your miss is 30+ yards left or right no amount of forgiveness will forgive that or be reflected in a score card. Its more realistic that the amount of "forgiveness" is considerably less than what's needed to effect scoring dramatically which is why there has been no change in scores since the days when GIs and SGIs didn't even exist as an option.

IMO.

(<----------- Doesn't drink the cool aid. )
[/quote]


Depends on the club in question. The difference in forgiveness between a blade short iron and a GI/SGI short iron are pretty small. You get a bad result typically because you put a horrendous swing on the ball. However the difference in forgiveness between a blade LONG iron and a GI/SGI long iron are pretty substantial. You are only going to get a quality shot with a blade long iron if you put a VERY good swing on the ball that results in near-perfect impact conditions. Anything else will lose significant distance, direction or both. Where as some GI (or even players-cavity) long irons can be as easy to hit, and forgiving as a blade mid-iron is.

The reason why scoring hasn't changed---at the amateur level---is because the technology doesn't really address what it takes to score well. That is: sensible course management, and a solid short game. Many practice ranges don't even have a short game practice area...and even on those that do, most high handicap players don't even take advantage of it.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322485125' post='3860919']Where as some GI (or even players-cavity) long irons can be as easy to hit, and forgiving as a blade mid-iron is.
[/quote]

This is exactly my point of the kind of things people say. If there ever existed a long iron that was easy to hit, hybrids would not be taking over the world as they are today. In fact half the long irons don't even really exist anymore in most sets. So now...if you miss with a 3i blade or a 3i shovel, the result in either case is "effectively" the same. To that point, sets starting irons at the #5 are becoming the norm more and mkre each day. And if we agree that into the short irons there's virtually no difference either then well, that's my point precisely.

[BMC]

Looking down at a blade, I know any shot is possible.


5 hdcp. using 99 Hogan Apex.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='Woodridge' timestamp='1321906199' post='3832237']
Blades only make you better with practice and proper lessons. They don't make you better on the golf course because you can tell that wounded duck you hit was a heel/ thin job.

That said, nothing feels better than a pured blade. Just don't expect them to make you a better player without putting in the hard work.
[/quote]

Absolutely true on all accounts! Over the holiday I played in some beautiful AZ courses, including a few unknowns with blind carries and target yardages, and one day, ugly 30-40 mph gusty winds which required ball striking or else.

People talk about the demands of ball striking when hitting into the wind, and overlook the consequences of poor ball striking and club selection with 30-40 mph gusting winds at your back. I faced a 595 yard Par 5 with 3-4 club gusting winds at my back; plus ugly OB left and right off the tee. I choked down on driver and nutting a low wind cheater 290 down right side short of fairway bunker; then a solid 4wd hoping to clear fairway ctr tree top, but clipped it, dropping straight down. My leave was full carry - 175yds to cover pond 2' from green edge; a front pin and long narrow right to left green. All three shots on a hole like that requires ball striking, but the 3rd shot demands ball striking, or else.

People talk about added distance with nutting the ball - true - but overlook the importance of NO side spin from properly nutting the ball, so conditions have minimal influence. I nutted it; it was not only a shot that was perfectly straight and looked voodabar, it felt gooooood, and my ball landed in the middle back, and due to proper spin stopped, leaving easy par.

Miss hits over four days of golf this weekend cost me about 12 strokes. I can happily live with that given conditions, and what my playing partners faced with their club choices. The best part of those misses, least IMO, facing the challenge of the next shot to save.... Then again, I am about the challenge of golf, not how easy it is. The reality - whether someone plays CB's or blades, misses happen. The question is how many and how bad and do you have control over your misses. Learning with blades, least for me, has helped me to keep misses at a minimum. PS - I am thankful I learned with blades because I make shots with long irons that others miss using replacement clubs. I attribute that to blades forcing me to improve my swing plane so I regularly find the sweet spot.

[NPVWhiz]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322236113' post='3850239']
I have made several forays into the SGI world; each time I went back to players' clubs.

My worse experience was with Ping. I would groove a nice 120yd pitching wedge; then with the same swing and same feel/feedback, I'd look up to see the ball dropping 8 yards short into a bunker, or 10 yards long flying the green. I had no sense of how/why it happened, no info to tell me if I had hit it on the heel, toe, or whatever.

That was just MY experience. I know lots of great golfers do great stuff with Pings. But we are all different.

And yes I will acknowledge that most people need some guidance in order to improve with any type of clubs. Your goals and your learning style will determine whether blades or shovels will be most helpful. But if a shovel is covering for your mini-flip at impact, you are unaware of how close you are to turning it into a maxi-flip that ruins your day. That was my case anyway.
[/quote]


Same here. I've tried several times over the last 10 years to act my age and switch to GI or SGI irons, and every time I've gone back to the old Mizunos for one simple reason. I can't tell where I'm hitting the ball on the face of GI or SGI irons unless it's a range ball that leaves a mark. I enjoy grooving the precise ball striking that blades require, and they work fine for me if I'm putting in the range time.


My view is that my ball striking and scoring go south anyway if I'm not putting in the range time, and they go south in a way that SGI irons wouldn't really help recover from. I really wanted to keep the Ping i5 irons I bought a couple of years ago in the bag, but they just didn't tell me what I needed to feel out on the course. There have been so many shots I've hit with blades short irons where I've just known from the feel that I flushed it.


I remember playing a round with a set of X14 Pros years ago where I scored just fine, but honestly had no idea where on the face I was hitting the ball. I had distance control problems with the i5s as well. The 125 yard PW from nowhere is not my idea of fun. My MS203 PW goes 112 yards when I hit it full and flush.

I have gotten to the point where the I need to go GI or SGI in the long irons, partly due to less range time and mostly due to age and fitness. I'm trolling the Bay for an old CompEZ 3 and 4. I didn't hit too many long irons this year that made me proud. But every time I try to go toward something "forgiving", my scoring starts to climb, and I'm not patient enough to wait it out. If a set really was more forgiving, shouldn't it show up in GIR over a few rounds?

[dunn]

adams mb2 arent very hard at all.........but i am sure they are others that can be extremely difficult