How hard is it to hit a blade?

[dunn]

[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322236113' post='3850239']
I have made several forays into the SGI world; each time I went back to players' clubs.

My worse experience was with Ping. I would groove a nice 120yd pitching wedge; then with the same swing and same feel/feedback, I'd look up to see the ball dropping 8 yards short into a bunker, or 10 yards long flying the green. I had no sense of how/why it happened, no info to tell me if I had hit it on the heel, toe, or whatever.

That was just MY experience. I know lots of great golfers do great stuff with Pings. But we are all different.

And yes I will acknowledge that most people need some guidance in order to improve with any type of clubs. Your goals and your learning style will determine whether blades or shovels will be most helpful. But if a shovel is covering for your mini-flip at impact, you are unaware of how close you are to turning it into a maxi-flip that ruins your day. That was my case anyway.
[/quote]


i agree.........sgi irons want to go straight..........swing with a draw biased or fade biased and they still go staight.........dont hit down on the ball doesnt matter they still go in the air, for a really poor poor swing sure there is some feedback but they cover up a lot of flaws....stand too far away and catch it on the toe but you will feel like you striped it dead center..............sure people need to either take lessons, or have common sense to understand ball flight and causes.......research the proper mechanics and so forth to progress

no where did i hear you say buy blades and your cured........but if itd the only tool you have a players/blade will sure tell you something is wrong............it is the persons responsibility not the CLUBS

i got what you were saying and just felt like that is a given that the person needs to get help if he or she needed it.........but i guess you have to spell it out for some

[dunn]

[quote name='Polo-D' timestamp='1322085769' post='3842751']
[quote name='Geohans' timestamp='1322068627' post='3841405']
Sorry. . . . but WHAT? A blade certain does help identify swing faults. It doesn't magically whisper them--- that is what's known as a straw man argument. It is meaningless, counterproductive, and shows the person making such a statement to have no argument.

A blade gives you FEEDBACK. You feel it, you see it in the ball flight. An SGI is like the modern math teacher who lets his student think that 2 plus 2 equals 5-- as long as the student has high self esteem.

Bobby Clampett summed it up nicely in his book, The Impact Zone: BLADES ARE THE TRUE GAME IMPROVEMENT IRONS. Notice he did not say "score improvement." I am not disputing the fact that many people will score better with GI irons.

A mediocre swing with an SGI will still give acceptable results. That is not the case with blades. If you are not the type to get frustrated easily, learning with a blade will indeed force you to find a way to get a satisfactory trajectory. The only way to do that will be with a downward strike, hands in front of the ball. These are two of the four "imperatives" which are present in any good golf swing.

SGIs let you have fun, without developing certain fundamentals. Nothing wrong with that! Some people develop great swings with SGIs. But for many others, blades will help them more. Some people learn best from a teacher who is precise in his criticism, fair, and even harsh sometimes; other people need their self esteem stroked.

We all learn differently. This is NOT to say there aren't advantages to PLAYING with GIs, possibly even for most people.

And please, let's ban the phrase "You've got no business playing blades." This is one of the most ignorant statements ever made on this board or any other.
[/quote]

So.......in order to develop a tour caliber swing, i just need blades, go to to the driving range, practice by myself, and judging the ball flight, get some feedback, and BY MYSELF, with out proper instruction I will correct swing flaws.
And no matter if I get proper instruction by a pro, and practice with GI or SGI irons I will develop a crappy swing?

Sorry but I don't agree.
[/quote]

he didnt say that, still your responsibility but the best tool is available for learning that was the message i got..........people need to be a little pro-activ and take responsibility for their swing...i assumed 99% of golfers knew this but maybe not..........lessons, research practice etc is a given

[kellygreen]

[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1322485964' post='3860931']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322485125' post='3860919']Where as some GI (or even players-cavity) long irons can be as easy to hit, and forgiving as a blade mid-iron is.
[/quote]

This is exactly my point of the kind of things people say. If there ever existed a long iron that was easy to hit, hybrids would not be taking over the world as they are today. In fact half the long irons don't even really exist anymore in most sets. So now...if you miss with a 3i blade or a 3i shovel, the result in either case is "effectively" the same. To that point, sets starting irons at the #5 are becoming the norm more and mkre each day. And if we agree that into the short irons there's virtually no difference either then well, that's my point precisely.
[/quote]

The "disappearing long iron" is more complicated than that, imo.

1. They are disappearing from amateur bags for two reasons: a.) many recreational players simply do not have the clubhead speed (or consistent enough contact) to flight a long iron correctly...no matter how many GI features you put into it; b) the-race-for-distance in the short and mid-irons have result in clubs that are labelled "3" and "4" irons that are in reality 1-, 2-, or 3- irons.

2. They are disappearing from skilled player's bags because of the way that course designers and tournament officials are trying to reduce scoring. Heavy rough. Forced carries. Pins tucked tightly behind bunkers and at the edges of greens. Few pros have the clubhead speed necessary hit the sort of high, cut shots necessary to get a long iron to stop fast enough under those conditions to allow birdie putts.

So hybrids are replacing long irons in amateur bags because they are simply easier to get in the air, and are more forgiving of mis-hits than are long irons. They are replacing long irons in skilled players bags because they are easier to get up in the air, and stop quickly than are long irons. But take those scoring conditions out of play----like at the British Open----and long irons start quickly start going back in player's bags.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322579192' post='3866035']
[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1322485964' post='3860931']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322485125' post='3860919']Where as some GI (or even players-cavity) long irons can be as easy to hit, and forgiving as a blade mid-iron is.
[/quote]

This is exactly my point of the kind of things people say. If there ever existed a long iron that was easy to hit, hybrids would not be taking over the world as they are today. In fact half the long irons don't even really exist anymore in most sets. So now...if you miss with a 3i blade or a 3i shovel, the result in either case is "effectively" the same. To that point, sets starting irons at the #5 are becoming the norm more and mkre each day. And if we agree that into the short irons there's virtually no difference either then well, that's my point precisely.
[/quote]

The "disappearing long iron" is more complicated than that, imo.

1. They are disappearing from amateur bags for two reasons: a.) many recreational players simply do not have the clubhead speed (or consistent enough contact) to flight a long iron correctly...no matter how many GI features you put into it; b) the-race-for-distance in the short and mid-irons have result in clubs that are labelled "3" and "4" irons that are in reality 1-, 2-, or 3- irons.

2. They are disappearing from skilled player's bags because of the way that course designers and tournament officials are trying to reduce scoring. Heavy rough. Forced carries. Pins tucked tightly behind bunkers and at the edges of greens. Few pros have the clubhead speed necessary hit the sort of high, cut shots necessary to get a long iron to stop fast enough under those conditions to allow birdie putts.

So hybrids are replacing long irons in amateur bags because they are simply easier to get in the air, and are more forgiving of miss-hits than are long irons. They are replacing long irons in skilled players bags because they are easier to get up in the air, and stop quickly than are long irons. But take those scoring conditions out of play----like at the British Open----and long irons start quickly start going back in player's bags.
[/quote]

Not to argue, and IMO, there's two sides to every coin. Two reasons long irons seem to be disappearing - heavy OEM Adv/Mkt in hopes of controlling consumer club-ho buying patterns, and lazy, "I want it now", give me forgiveness because I don't have time to practice, among other thoughts. The sad part is those I watch, for the most part, using hybrids, still regularly miss hit the ball.

I agree, most recreational players don't have SS, yet using hybrids still miss the same shots they missed using irons, except the ball might travel farther. IMO it's a joke. As for skilled players - least those I know - it has to do with "time" to practice and the influences of age and/or growing lazy and forgiveness. NO way are most users working the ball as effectively with hybrids as with long irons. But, working the ball is a matter of judgment and degrees of outcome. As for stopping the ball on the green, before the advent of hybrids touring pros were use long irons and still stopped shots on the green. I (60+) still carry long irons because I am still physically fit, able to get the ball airborne, and to cut or draw the ball to those pins that "most", not all, hybrid uses can't access, by head design.

Hybrids show up = more sponsor money shows up. I am no one special when it comes to golf, yet over the last week played a number of long holes where I stopped my ball on the green using long irons, including one shot where I used 2i in. I'll give you, hybrids work better in the hands of someone that can't spin the ball or get the ball up with long iron. I played with a guy (similar index as mine) that out drove me by 20yds on a par 5. He pulls hybrid for his 2nd shot and I pulled 2 iron. Did either of us really care what the other person was using... only him, when I pulled a long iron. He suggested I hit wood. I then proceeded to hit a sweet line drive past his hybrid result, and my ideal leave of 110yds. I saw his result as not capitalizing on his own tools; hence no hybrid superiority, just choice. Like choosing standard putter over long putter. Oh, I beat him by 6 strokes, and on his home course too.

As for "pros" - that's categorically incorrect. They have two motivations to carry hybrids - sponsor MONEY (same sponsors that want buyer control) induces change, plus they need to make cuts, and face holes and shots that are decidedly different then what 99% of the amateurs face. Also there's a pro player segment that gets lazy with time. I personally know a three PGA pros that seldom practice, except when out on tour before tournaments; that translates to needing forgiveness out of career necessity. In those cases, hybrid suggests good judgment. One last point that suggests too many on this board seem unaware of what touring pros do when not on tour. The guys I play with regularly leave their tour irons in the garage, in favor of a completely different set of clubs... blades, and one still uses 2 iron; that's how they learned the game. Claiming they do this or that - without knowing what their habits are off tour is not only misleading to those with no expereince; it's an error in judgment. MY 2cents, have a good day.

[Frank_Dux]

Not hard if you don't try to hit them hard. I play PW-6 in a blade and 5 iron in a CB. The blades just feel so good and I like to shape my balls from right to left and left to right.

Regarding blades, "you can't learn how to ride a bike without taking off the training wheels." In my humble opinion, I like blades also because it lets me know when I'm hitting a bad shot. My goal is eventually remove my 4 hybrid out of my bag.

[dunn]

well for FWIW, i have always gamed some sort of gi club..recently got the adams mb2

first round went surprisingly good....4 birdies but a triple and 3 doubles cost me, wasnt the irons fault a stray tee shot, short sided myself and 3 putts...........still managed to pop an 82 which is decent.....then yest i shot the lowest round of my life by 5 shots.... a blistering 74!..............i was all over the pin from 150 and in, hit at least 7 shots inside 10 feet and 2 birds were tap ins

i would have never thought i would do that with a blade, i was prepared to suck it up for a while and only expected a few good shots, coming from mp53...........they just set up to my eye, i focused a bit harder and did not try to kill the ball........ sure things will go astray at times but i feel good setting up and really enjoy the small face instead of not focusing because the size of the club is so big i feel like i can hit it anywhere......also the sole grinds on blades suits my swing........really feel like i can attack and cut through the turf easier..........so well see

so i guess everyone is different but like most i stayed away for fear of not being able to hit them or get any confidence and the reverse has happened, plus i hit 4-5 of the most beautiful shots that i have ever hit..........i pured half a dozen shots that left me with the most amazing feeling i ever had......the way it cut turf the perfect balance of weight, trajectory...ahh just f'en heaven........remember those the rest of my life!

like a new sport.....dont know if others have felt that way but anyway, give it a go you can always change back and i have a feeling todays mb/blades are quite easier to hit than ones of 10+ years ago

who knows in 2 months i may be posting something like ahh the first few rounds went great but then i fell apart and now i am back to GI but a weird feeling says prolly not

[gken]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1321896332' post='3831341']
[quote name='rkangrah' timestamp='1321878094' post='3830203']
If you play with any kind of Blade irons, how hard is it to hit a blade? Why do you play with blade irons?

Also Does a blade go shorter than a cavity back if being hit by a golfer with average swing speed (around 80 Mph with a 5 iron)?
[/quote]

They are more difficult to hit compared to game improvement heads, but not nearly as difficult as "real" butter knife blades from years back. Newer blade designs are somewhat forgiving compared to what I learned with. My current irons are just blade like, still difficult for most uses. However, my other irons are custom MacGregor 1025M butter knives that take a good swing. When it comes to distance, and nutted, they fly a tad longer; but miss hits are approx 10yds shorter then my club norm.

Swing mechanics need to be grooved to realize results. That said, IMO from a learning perspective, blades are great instructional tools, but require patience, as they give immediate feed back as to whether or not what you hoped for at impact, was actually accomplished. There's nothing in golf like the feel of a properly nutted ball off a forged blade either. My 70+ FIL still plays with forged blades, and he has much less SS. Its not about SS as much as hitting the ball with the sweet spot. Do that and you're realize your expected distances. PS - whether some one chooses blades or not has everything to do with how they approach the game and what they see as important. Ball striking, least to me, is #1. Playing with game Improvement irons doesn't make the user a better ball striker, all it does is saves a few strokes. So, if score is what your about - go with CB's, if developing ball striking skill and swing mechanics is #1, then maybe blades with make the golfer. CB's will save some strokes, but as the users swing mechanics improve, scoring results equal out. I

Honestly, if I use game improvement heads, my score will be pretty much the same. The variable over scoring any given day is what swing shows up on the 1st tee. Take it from someone that likes fast "driver" oriented cars and road race bikes... a Toyota or Kia will get you to the destination as well as a Turbo P-car - I prefer the latter, as I like to experience the drive on the way to my destination, as well as the destination.
[/quote]

+100 on this one. I was going to type a huge response but then I saw your awesome post. Since I'm better now (eg. ballstriking) they provide me with immediate feedback if I'm not setting up correctly or have my back straightened out. IMO helps me to be a better golfer, but hey that's just me.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322594940' post='3867151']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322579192' post='3866035']
[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1322485964' post='3860931']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322485125' post='3860919']Where as some GI (or even players-cavity) long irons can be as easy to hit, and forgiving as a blade mid-iron is.
[/quote]

This is exactly my point of the kind of things people say. If there ever existed a long iron that was easy to hit, hybrids would not be taking over the world as they are today. In fact half the long irons don't even really exist anymore in most sets. So now...if you miss with a 3i blade or a 3i shovel, the result in either case is "effectively" the same. To that point, sets starting irons at the #5 are becoming the norm more and mkre each day. And if we agree that into the short irons there's virtually no difference either then well, that's my point precisely.
[/quote]

The "disappearing long iron" is more complicated than that, imo.

1. They are disappearing from amateur bags for two reasons: a.) many recreational players simply do not have the clubhead speed (or consistent enough contact) to flight a long iron correctly...no matter how many GI features you put into it; b) the-race-for-distance in the short and mid-irons have result in clubs that are labelled "3" and "4" irons that are in reality 1-, 2-, or 3- irons.

2. They are disappearing from skilled player's bags because of the way that course designers and tournament officials are trying to reduce scoring. Heavy rough. Forced carries. Pins tucked tightly behind bunkers and at the edges of greens. Few pros have the clubhead speed necessary hit the sort of high, cut shots necessary to get a long iron to stop fast enough under those conditions to allow birdie putts.

So hybrids are replacing long irons in amateur bags because they are simply easier to get in the air, and are more forgiving of miss-hits than are long irons. They are replacing long irons in skilled players bags because they are easier to get up in the air, and stop quickly than are long irons. But take those scoring conditions out of play----like at the British Open----and long irons start quickly start going back in player's bags.
[/quote]

Not to argue, and IMO, there's two sides to every coin. Two reasons long irons seem to be disappearing - heavy OEM Adv/Mkt in hopes of controlling consumer club-ho buying patterns, and lazy, "I want it now", give me forgiveness because I don't have time to practice, among other thoughts. The sad part is those I watch, for the most part, using hybrids, still regularly miss hit the ball.

I agree, most recreational players don't have SS, yet using hybrids still miss the same shots they missed using irons, except the ball might travel farther. IMO it's a joke. As for skilled players - least those I know - it has to do with "time" to practice and the influences of age and/or growing lazy and forgiveness. NO way are most users working the ball as effectively with hybrids as with long irons. But, working the ball is a matter of judgment and degrees of outcome. As for stopping the ball on the green, before the advent of hybrids touring pros were use long irons and still stopped shots on the green. I (60+) still carry long irons because I am still physically fit, able to get the ball airborne, and to cut or draw the ball to those pins that "most", not all, hybrid uses can't access, by head design.

Hybrids show up = more sponsor money shows up. I am no one special when it comes to golf, yet over the last week played a number of long holes where I stopped my ball on the green using long irons, including one shot where I used 2i in. I'll give you, hybrids work better in the hands of someone that can't spin the ball or get the ball up with long iron. I played with a guy (similar index as mine) that out drove me by 20yds on a par 5. He pulls hybrid for his 2nd shot and I pulled 2 iron. Did either of us really care what the other person was using... only him, when I pulled a long iron. He suggested I hit wood. I then proceeded to hit a sweet line drive past his hybrid result, and my ideal leave of 110yds. I saw his result as not capitalizing on his own tools; hence no hybrid superiority, just choice. Like choosing standard putter over long putter. Oh, I beat him by 6 strokes, and on his home course too.

As for "pros" - that's categorically incorrect. They have two motivations to carry hybrids - sponsor MONEY (same sponsors that want buyer control) induces change, plus they need to make cuts, and face holes and shots that are decidedly different then what 99% of the amateurs face. Also there's a pro player segment that gets lazy with time. I personally know a three PGA pros that seldom practice, except when out on tour before tournaments; that translates to needing forgiveness out of career necessity. In those cases, hybrid suggests good judgment. One last point that suggests too many on this board seem unaware of what touring pros do when not on tour. The guys I play with regularly leave their tour irons in the garage, in favor of a completely different set of clubs... blades, and one still uses 2 iron; that's how they learned the game. Claiming they do this or that - without knowing what their habits are off tour is not only misleading to those with no expereince; it's an error in judgment. MY 2cents, have a good day.
[/quote]

In reverse order.

1. When tour pros are not on tour, I doubt they are playing the same course or the same type of set-ups that they play when they are on tour. IOW, they are not playing course with greens as hard and pins as tucked....trying to shoot as low as score as possible against 140 other guys pushing them hard to make as many birdies as possible.

2. I believe I said that pros play a different kind of course than amateurs do, because tournament directors are trying to suppress the scoring of the best players in the world.

3. At the end of the day, golf is a game. A game that (unless you're a tour pro) that is played for fun...and is scored in terms of "how many", not "how." So if seeing the game as a test of character, and how much their hardwork has paid off is fun for some people....God Love 'em. In my case, I play the clubs that allow me to get the most out of my game. I don't play hybrids for a very simple reason. I hit them poorly and inconsistently compared to fairway woods and long irons. But I have a swing that produces a lot of clubhead speed, and has a very shallow angle of attack. Which is ideally suited for playing fairway woods and long irons well. IMO, hybrids are also popular with players who tend to be "diggers" and have a steeper angle of attack.

At any rate, when there is no wind...or forced carries...or I need to stop 230 yd shots on the greens of par 5s. I put a 5-wood in my bag...simply because the results are better than trying to finesse a 2-iron...and since I work for a living, I don't have the time to practice enough to get that consistent hitting a high-cut with a 2 iron. But when its windy, and I'm only need a 220 yd control shot to find the fairway...I put in the 2-iron, because I get better results than trying to keep the trajectory of a 5-wood down out of the wind.

Other people's mileage may vary.....

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322672870' post='3871363']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322594940' post='3867151']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322579192' post='3866035']
[quote name='RRFireblade' timestamp='1322485964' post='3860931']
[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1322485125' post='3860919']Where as some GI (or even players-cavity) long irons can be as easy to hit, and forgiving as a blade mid-iron is.
[/quote]

This is exactly my point of the kind of things people say. If there ever existed a long iron that was easy to hit, hybrids would not be taking over the world as they are today. In fact half the long irons don't even really exist anymore in most sets. So now...if you miss with a 3i blade or a 3i shovel, the result in either case is "effectively" the same. To that point, sets starting irons at the #5 are becoming the norm more and mkre each day. And if we agree that into the short irons there's virtually no difference either then well, that's my point precisely.
[/quote]

The "disappearing long iron" is more complicated than that, imo.

1. They are disappearing from amateur bags for two reasons: a.) many recreational players simply do not have the clubhead speed (or consistent enough contact) to flight a long iron correctly...no matter how many GI features you put into it; b) the-race-for-distance in the short and mid-irons have result in clubs that are labelled "3" and "4" irons that are in reality 1-, 2-, or 3- irons.

2. They are disappearing from skilled player's bags because of the way that course designers and tournament officials are trying to reduce scoring. Heavy rough. Forced carries. Pins tucked tightly behind bunkers and at the edges of greens. Few pros have the clubhead speed necessary hit the sort of high, cut shots necessary to get a long iron to stop fast enough under those conditions to allow birdie putts.

So hybrids are replacing long irons in amateur bags because they are simply easier to get in the air, and are more forgiving of miss-hits than are long irons. They are replacing long irons in skilled players bags because they are easier to get up in the air, and stop quickly than are long irons. But take those scoring conditions out of play----like at the British Open----and long irons start quickly start going back in player's bags.
[/quote]

Not to argue, and IMO, there's two sides to every coin. Two reasons long irons seem to be disappearing - heavy OEM Adv/Mkt in hopes of controlling consumer club-ho buying patterns, and lazy, "I want it now", give me forgiveness because I don't have time to practice, among other thoughts. The sad part is those I watch, for the most part, using hybrids, still regularly miss hit the ball.

I agree, most recreational players don't have SS, yet using hybrids still miss the same shots they missed using irons, except the ball might travel farther. IMO it's a joke. As for skilled players - least those I know - it has to do with "time" to practice and the influences of age and/or growing lazy and forgiveness. NO way are most users working the ball as effectively with hybrids as with long irons. But, working the ball is a matter of judgment and degrees of outcome. As for stopping the ball on the green, before the advent of hybrids touring pros were use long irons and still stopped shots on the green. I (60+) still carry long irons because I am still physically fit, able to get the ball airborne, and to cut or draw the ball to those pins that "most", not all, hybrid uses can't access, by head design.

Hybrids show up = more sponsor money shows up. I am no one special when it comes to golf, yet over the last week played a number of long holes where I stopped my ball on the green using long irons, including one shot where I used 2i in. I'll give you, hybrids work better in the hands of someone that can't spin the ball or get the ball up with long iron. I played with a guy (similar index as mine) that out drove me by 20yds on a par 5. He pulls hybrid for his 2nd shot and I pulled 2 iron. Did either of us really care what the other person was using... only him, when I pulled a long iron. He suggested I hit wood. I then proceeded to hit a sweet line drive past his hybrid result, and my ideal leave of 110yds. I saw his result as not capitalizing on his own tools; hence no hybrid superiority, just choice. Like choosing standard putter over long putter. Oh, I beat him by 6 strokes, and on his home course too.

As for "pros" - that's categorically incorrect. They have two motivations to carry hybrids - sponsor MONEY (same sponsors that want buyer control) induces change, plus they need to make cuts, and face holes and shots that are decidedly different then what 99% of the amateurs face. Also there's a pro player segment that gets lazy with time. I personally know a three PGA pros that seldom practice, except when out on tour before tournaments; that translates to needing forgiveness out of career necessity. In those cases, hybrid suggests good judgment. One last point that suggests too many on this board seem unaware of what touring pros do when not on tour. The guys I play with regularly leave their tour irons in the garage, in favor of a completely different set of clubs... blades, and one still uses 2 iron; that's how they learned the game. Claiming they do this or that - without knowing what their habits are off tour is not only misleading to those with no expereince; it's an error in judgment. MY 2cents, have a good day.
[/quote]

In reverse order.

1. When tour pros are not on tour, I doubt they are playing the same course or the same type of set-ups that they play when they are on tour. IOW, they are not playing course with greens as hard and pins as tucked....trying to shoot as low as score as possible against 140 other guys pushing them hard to make as many birdies as possible.

2. I believe I said that pros play a different kind of course than amateurs do, because tournament directors are trying to suppress the scoring of the best players in the world.

3. At the end of the day, golf is a game. A game that (unless you're a tour pro) that is played for fun...and is scored in terms of "how many", not "how." So if seeing the game as a test of character, and how much their hardwork has paid off is fun for some people....God Love 'em. In my case, I play the clubs that allow me to get the most out of my game. I don't play hybrids for a very simple reason. I hit them poorly and inconsistently compared to fairway woods and long irons. But I have a swing that produces a lot of clubhead speed, and has a very shallow angle of attack. Which is ideally suited for playing fairway woods and long irons well. IMO, hybrids are also popular with players who tend to be "diggers" and have a steeper angle of attack.

At any rate, when there is no wind...or forced carries...or I need to stop 230 yd shots on the greens of par 5s. I put a 5-wood in my bag...simply because the results are better than trying to finesse a 2-iron...and since I work for a living, I don't have the time to practice enough to get that consistent hitting a high-cut with a 2 iron. But when its windy, and I'm only need a 220 yd control shot to find the fairway...I put in the 2-iron, because I get better results than trying to keep the trajectory of a 5-wood down out of the wind.

Other people's mileage may vary.....
[/quote]

#1 Is proven false just by looking at Travistock Cup's alternating course conditions; they are comparable to tour standards, even during off months. That's only two examples too. Look at the courses where Phil Michelson has his homes, both are in impeccable condition, difficult and fast with outstanding facilities; yet Phil does most of his short game practice in his backyard. Most Tour players live in golf course communities, where their home course/practice facility eventually align somewhat with tour play conditions. Whether or not they use the practice facilities is one thing, but they do play golf when home; conditions need to be close to what they face on tour. My past pvt club has multiple PGA touring members, and on any given day is not all that far from US Open / PGA qualifying conditions, (11-12 greens, fast undulated fairways & difficult 3-4" rough) as its stage qualifying for both events. One of the public courses I frequent has similar conditions and was stage qualifying for Champions tour.

From my experience, and generally speaking - the average tour event conditions, although more difficult that what the average Joe plays, are not setup like US Open, BO, Masters or PGA conditions. Typically they are setup to give tour players the chance to go really low - shine - in other words, mostly birdie fests... My mileage does vary, as I always carry 2i and like difficult and fast undulated fairways and greens. I am a gluten for challenging punishment because it pushes me to overcome what often debilitates others. Have a good day.

[rkangrah]

BTW IF you compare blades and cavity back, on center hits, which one will go farther?

[Pepperturbo]

Purely struck muscle back will go farther, least for me. But, there are occasions where game improvement CB flies farther, thanks to the trampoline effect of perimeter weighting, and in many hands, direction is up for grabs... An friend plays CB's... He swings his back out to hit each club as far as he can. Result = ugly dispersion and variable distances. We're the same age, and he'd hit his 7i as far as my 5i at times, but can't do it consistently. He does enjoy lots of forgiveness, and never comes up short;.but fly's too many greens.. I don't think there's an absolute answer ... it depends on swing mechanics and the size of the sweet spot.

Older blades had higher and smaller, dime like sweet spots, closer to the face and heal. Contemporary blade sweet spots are lower, away from the face, about nickel in size; reason they are easier to hit. CB's have a bit larger, but somewhat defused sweet spot because of perimeter weighting forgiveness. Reason someone can miss half the sweet spot and still realize close to their standard distance. I've been playing original X-Forged since 07, intermingled with blades. X-Forged are blade like with minimal forgiveness... They feel like my original 670MB's when struck on the screw, because of heavy sole weighting, and sweet spot size is similar to a blade. My 2cents.

[rkangrah]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322699618' post='3873359']
Purely struck muscle back will go farther, least for me. But, there are occasions where game improvement CB flies farther, thanks to the trampoline effect of perimeter weighting, and in many hands, direction is up for grabs... An friend plays CB's... He swings his back out to hit each club as far as he can. Result = ugly dispersion and variable distances. We're the same age, and he'd hit his 7i as far as my 5i at times, but can't do it consistently. He does enjoy lots of forgiveness, and never comes up short;.but fly's too many greens.. I don't think there's an absolute answer ... it depends on swing mechanics and the size of the sweet spot.

Older blades had higher and smaller, dime like sweet spots, closer to the face and heal. Contemporary blade sweet spots are lower, away from the face, about nickel in size; reason they are easier to hit. CB's have a bit larger, but somewhat defused sweet spot because of perimeter weighting forgiveness. Reason someone can miss half the sweet spot and still realize close to their standard distance. I've been playing original X-Forged since 07, intermingled with blades. X-Forged are blade like with minimal forgiveness... They feel like my original 670MB's when struck on the screw, because of heavy sole weighting, and sweet spot size is similar to a blade. My 2cents.
[/quote]

Muscle back are the forged iron with a cavity. Is it? Like the old Nike Pro Combo....?

[dunn]

[quote name='rkangrah' timestamp='1322695260' post='3873013']
BTW IF you compare blades and cavity back, on center hits, which one will go farther?
[/quote]


no doubt a blade given the lofts are equal........i have hit a few over the years from playing partners or friends and half a dozen times when i did nut the blade it went farther, but also lost more if i missed......

it was 1/2 to 1 club longer, nowadays pretty hard to compare as blad/mb have traditional lofts and most gi cb have strong lofts

[spoonhead]

How hard is it to hit a blade? Pretty hard if you cant repeat your swing precisely.

I have some older sets and as someone already mentioned hitting the 7 iron to PW with blades is not overly challenging for me, at my level, but with the lower clubs I am in over my head.

So, someone with a sub 10 handicap should be able to hit a blade 5 iron consistently.

My problem is that if it ends up costing me 3 strokes a round trying play blades, thats too high of a cost at my level. I have been to the range many times comparing strikes between GI irons and blades and the loss on a miss hit blade is huge compared to a GI iron. And it hurts.
I hope to play a split set one day, but the cost is just too high for now.

[BigOgolfer]

[quote name='Jimbud' timestamp='1321898145' post='3831487']
Hitting blades (and I don't mean just hitting the 9 iron on the range) is sort of like sitting on a park bench in New York's Central Park and having a Victoria's Secret model jog by and she stops to tie her running shoe on your park bench. You can ask her out on a date but it's probably not going to work out.
[/quote]
Yeah, but if he could find himself in that position 500 times and ask them out each time, you never know - he could get better at it, or he might get lucky - and that's more like golf.


OP, I doubt descriptions are going to satisfy your curiosity on this. Blade it up, check it out. As long as you're respecting the pace, it doesn't irk me whatever you wanna use.

[dunn]

if nothing else you will get the truth on where your swing is!..........

i feel the same game whatever, dont care what hcp.....remember back in " the day" every one hit em.you didnt have a choice, and of course the big co who sell their GI/SGI clubs are going to tell you need them, but it simply isnt true..some will hit them better than GI and some wont

[78blades]

Blades are as easy or as hard to hit as YOU make them. Its comical to me that all the OEM's and sales people have the golfing public believing that if they aren't a pro level golfer they are not able to hit blades. Having learned the game back in the early 60's this thinking just crack me up. Now with all of that said, I have switched to cb's in my long irons b/c I can step on them a bit more and get away with it.

[Jayhawkrx93]

[quote name='Jimbud' timestamp='1321898145' post='3831487']
Hitting blades (and I don't mean just hitting the 9 iron on the range) is sort of like sitting on a park bench in New York's Central Park and having a Victoria's Secret model jog by and she stops to tie her running shoe on your park bench. You can ask her out on a date but it's probably not going to work out.
[/quote]

But I've never been maced by my 9 iron.

[Conrad1953]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1321896332' post='3831341']
[quote name='rkangrah' timestamp='1321878094' post='3830203']
If you play with any kind of Blade irons, how hard is it to hit a blade? Why do you play with blade irons?

Also Does a blade go shorter than a cavity back if being hit by a golfer with average swing speed (around 80 Mph with a 5 iron)?
[/quote]

They are more difficult to hit compared to game improvement heads, but not nearly as difficult as "real" butter knife blades from years back. Newer blade designs are somewhat forgiving compared to what I learned with. My current irons are just blade like, still difficult for most uses. However, my other irons are custom MacGregor 1025M butter knives that take a good swing. When it comes to distance, and nutted, they fly a tad longer; but miss hits are approx 10yds shorter then my club norm.

Swing mechanics need to be grooved to realize results. That said, IMO from a learning perspective, blades are great instructional tools, but require patience, as they give immediate feed back as to whether or not what you hoped for at impact, was actually accomplished. There's nothing in golf like the feel of a properly nutted ball off a forged blade either. My 70+ FIL still plays with forged blades, and he has much less SS. Its not about SS as much as hitting the ball with the sweet spot. Do that and you're realize your expected distances. PS - whether some one chooses blades or not has everything to do with how they approach the game and what they see as important. Ball striking, least to me, is #1. Playing with game Improvement irons doesn't make the user a better ball striker, all it does is saves a few strokes. So, if score is what your about - go with CB's, if developing ball striking skill and swing mechanics is #1, then maybe blades with make the golfer. CB's will save some strokes, but as the users swing mechanics improve, scoring results equal out. I

Honestly, if I use game improvement heads, my score will be pretty much the same. The variable over scoring any given day is what swing shows up on the 1st tee. Take it from someone that likes fast "driver" oriented cars and road race bikes... a Toyota or Kia will get you to the destination as well as a Turbo P-car - I prefer the latter, as I like to experience the drive on the way to my destination, as well as the destination.
[/quote]

Really, ball striking is #1 for me as well. Good ball striking is the #1 confidence builder.
It's the foundation on which you build your game. It's what I notice in other players when
I'm on the course.

There are very good players who play SGI irons and are good ball strikers and then there
are not so good players with SGI irons who get better results than they deserve and think
they are better ball strikers than they really are.

For those of us who have been around this game for awhile we can quickly and easily
tell the difference. We know what good impact dynamics looks like and the resultant
ball flight.

You take the good ball striking SGI player and put a players club in his hands and
after an adjustment period he will be hitting good shots. You take the other player
and put a players club in his hands and he will not be able to adjust to it.

More so, blades demand good impact dynamics. If you have them you can hit a
blade. If you don't, you will struggle.

So, as many have said, blades are harder to hit, but not so much for the player
who already has good impact dynamics. For the player whose bad impact
dynamics had been masked by the SGI irons, blades will be very hard to hit
well. That is why so many say blades are hard to hit, because the vast
majority of weekend golfers have a swing only an SGI iron would love.

[V-twin]

On the weekend going out as a single I have seen all kinds of mis hits but the best ones are the high handicapper with a set of blades. They are swinging out of their shoes and trying to scoop the ball in air. The one thing with blades you must hit down on the ball take a diviot be aggressive in the hitting zone.

[SurfinTurf]

I used to play Ping i5's
I also used to wear condoms
It's a solid analogy
Think about it

Now I trust my woman and I trust my game
Blades just feel good, and you'll probably know when you're ready for them

[Ripken08]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322699618' post='3873359']
Purely struck muscle back will go farther, least for me. But, there are occasions where game improvement CB flies farther, thanks to the trampoline effect of perimeter weighting, and in many hands, direction is up for grabs... An friend plays CB's... He swings his back out to hit each club as far as he can. Result = ugly dispersion and variable distances. We're the same age, and he'd hit his 7i as far as my 5i at times, but can't do it consistently. He does enjoy lots of forgiveness, and never comes up short;.but fly's too many greens.. I don't think there's an absolute answer ... it depends on swing mechanics and the size of the sweet spot.

Older blades had higher and smaller, dime like sweet spots, closer to the face and heal. Contemporary blade sweet spots are lower, away from the face, about nickel in size; reason they are easier to hit. CB's have a bit larger, but somewhat defused sweet spot because of perimeter weighting forgiveness. Reason someone can miss half the sweet spot and still realize close to their standard distance. I've been playing original X-Forged since 07, intermingled with blades. X-Forged are blade like with minimal forgiveness... They feel like my original 670MB's when struck on the screw, because of heavy sole weighting, and sweet spot size is similar to a blade. My 2cents.
[/quote]


Dude, you're not even playing blades. 07 X Forged are hardly blades....

[Geohans]

Maybe my latex allergy is the reason I didn't play well with Pings?

[kellygreen]

To each his own.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1322731059' post='3875029']
On the weekend going out as a single I have seen all kinds of mis hits but the best ones are the high handicapper with a set of blades. They are swinging out of their shoes and trying to scoop the ball in air. The one thing with blades you must hit down on the ball take a diviot be aggressive in the hitting zone.
[/quote]

During all my travels to TX, AZ, and CA desert courses, playing 2-3 times a week and some weeks more, I don't recall that last time I encountered anyone with a high index playing blades. I know they exist, but IMO these days they are few and far between. The number of times it's mentioned on this board far exceeds reality. AS for swing out of their shoes, that's inherent with high index folks.

As for your last statement, hitting down on the ball is one thing, having to take a divot is not necessary to be a good ball striker and golfer. I tend to sweep the ball, yet hit down on the back of the ball first. Only time I typically take divots is with 9i, PW & SW. I typically sweep/pick with 2-7, and others including LW, scrape the turf, and still spin the ball plenty... Reason I scrap with LW is its seldom used over 60yds.

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='SHORTBUTSTR8' timestamp='1322741179' post='3875151']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322699618' post='3873359']
Purely struck muscle back will go farther, least for me. But, there are occasions where game improvement CB flies farther, thanks to the trampoline effect of perimeter weighting, and in many hands, direction is up for grabs... An friend plays CB's... He swings his back out to hit each club as far as he can. Result = ugly dispersion and variable distances. We're the same age, and he'd hit his 7i as far as my 5i at times, but can't do it consistently. He does enjoy lots of forgiveness, and never comes up short;.but fly's too many greens.. I don't think there's an absolute answer ... it depends on swing mechanics and the size of the sweet spot.

Older blades had higher and smaller, dime like sweet spots, closer to the face and heal. Contemporary blade sweet spots are lower, away from the face, about nickel in size; reason they are easier to hit. CB's have a bit larger, but somewhat defused sweet spot because of perimeter weighting forgiveness. Reason someone can miss half the sweet spot and still realize close to their standard distance. I've been playing original X-Forged since 07, intermingled with blades. X-Forged are blade like with minimal forgiveness... They feel like my original 670MB's when struck on the screw, because of heavy sole weighting, and sweet spot size is similar to a blade. My 2cents.
[/quote]


Dude, you're not even playing blades. 07 X Forged are hardly blades....
[/quote]

You obviously didn't read all the words in my post - or probably do not understand design characteristics of original X-Forged heads. Its for that reason I won't bother to explain further, except to say their spec are why, after 6/8 months, Callaway redesigned X-Forged to make them easier to hit, and made them even easier with 09 version. That said, I played Titleist original 670MB's for years, still play them now and again. They were considered by Titliest and tour guys very diffucult to properly strike. Els played the original and updated versions, and only 19 others because they were difficult. I also have custom made "for me", MacGregor 1025M blades and use 2 iron in each set.. so, dude...

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322761536' post='3876379']
[quote name='SHORTBUTSTR8' timestamp='1322741179' post='3875151']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322699618' post='3873359']
Purely struck muscle back will go farther, least for me. But, there are occasions where game improvement CB flies farther, thanks to the trampoline effect of perimeter weighting, and in many hands, direction is up for grabs... An friend plays CB's... He swings his back out to hit each club as far as he can. Result = ugly dispersion and variable distances. We're the same age, and he'd hit his 7i as far as my 5i at times, but can't do it consistently. He does enjoy lots of forgiveness, and never comes up short;.but fly's too many greens.. I don't think there's an absolute answer ... it depends on swing mechanics and the size of the sweet spot.

Older blades had higher and smaller, dime like sweet spots, closer to the face and heal. Contemporary blade sweet spots are lower, away from the face, about nickel in size; reason they are easier to hit. CB's have a bit larger, but somewhat defused sweet spot because of perimeter weighting forgiveness. Reason someone can miss half the sweet spot and still realize close to their standard distance. I've been playing original X-Forged since 07, intermingled with blades. X-Forged are blade like with minimal forgiveness... They feel like my original 670MB's when struck on the screw, because of heavy sole weighting, and sweet spot size is similar to a blade. My 2cents.
[/quote]


Dude, you're not even playing blades. 07 X Forged are hardly blades....
[/quote]

You obviously didn't read all the words in my post - or probably do not understand design characteristics of original X-Forged heads. Its for that reason I won't bother to explain further, except to say their spec are why, after 6/8 months, Callaway redesigned X-Forged to make them easier to hit, and made them even easier with 09 version. That said, I played Titleist original 670MB's for years, still play them now and again. They were considered by Titliest and tour guys very diffucult to properly strike. Els played the original and updated versions, and only 19 others because they were difficult. I also have custom made "for me", MacGregor 1025M blades. So, dude...
[/quote]

*gasp* Pepper I thought you used a real blade. Either it's a flatback or it's not a blade!

[Pepperturbo]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1322761810' post='3876405']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322761536' post='3876379']
[quote name='SHORTBUTSTR8' timestamp='1322741179' post='3875151']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322699618' post='3873359']
Purely struck muscle back will go farther, least for me. But, there are occasions where game improvement CB flies farther, thanks to the trampoline effect of perimeter weighting, and in many hands, direction is up for grabs... An friend plays CB's... He swings his back out to hit each club as far as he can. Result = ugly dispersion and variable distances. We're the same age, and he'd hit his 7i as far as my 5i at times, but can't do it consistently. He does enjoy lots of forgiveness, and never comes up short;.but fly's too many greens.. I don't think there's an absolute answer ... it depends on swing mechanics and the size of the sweet spot.

Older blades had higher and smaller, dime like sweet spots, closer to the face and heal. Contemporary blade sweet spots are lower, away from the face, about nickel in size; reason they are easier to hit. CB's have a bit larger, but somewhat defused sweet spot because of perimeter weighting forgiveness. Reason someone can miss half the sweet spot and still realize close to their standard distance. I've been playing original X-Forged since 07, intermingled with blades. X-Forged are blade like with minimal forgiveness... They feel like my original 670MB's when struck on the screw, because of heavy sole weighting, and sweet spot size is similar to a blade. My 2cents.
[/quote]

Dude, you're not even playing blades. 07 X Forged are hardly blades....
[/quote]

You obviously didn't read all the words in my post - or probably do not understand design characteristics of original X-Forged heads. Its for that reason I won't bother to explain further, except to say their spec are why, after 6/8 months, Callaway redesigned X-Forged to make them easier to hit, and made them even easier with 09 version. That said, I played Titleist original 670MB's for years, [u]still play them now and again[/u]. They were considered by Titliest and tour guys very diffucult to properly strike. Els played the original and updated versions, and only 19 others because they were difficult. I also have custom made "for me", MacGregor 1025M blades. So, dude...
[/quote]

*gasp* Pepper I thought you used a real blade. Either it's a flatback or it's not a blade!
[/quote]


black or white... fine... but, don't gasp too long, blotting causes gas.

You know what's between a Toyota Camery and Porsche 911 Turbo S... a 911 S - difference about 130hp.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322760713' post='3876321']
[quote name='V-twin' timestamp='1322731059' post='3875029']
On the weekend going out as a single I have seen all kinds of mis hits but the best ones are the high handicapper with a set of blades. They are swinging out of their shoes and trying to scoop the ball in air. The one thing with blades you must hit down on the ball take a diviot be aggressive in the hitting zone.
[/quote]

During all my travels to TX, AZ, and CA desert courses, playing 2-3 times a week and some weeks more, I don't recall that last time I encountered anyone with a high index playing blades. I know they exist, but IMO these days they are few and far between. The number of times it's mentioned on this board far exceeds reality. AS for swing out of their shoes, that's inherent with high index folks.

As for your last statement, hitting down on the ball is one thing, having to take a divot is not necessary to be a good ball striker and golfer. I tend to sweep the ball, yet hit down on the back of the ball first. Only time I typically take divots is with 9i, PW & SW. I typically sweep/pick with 2-7, and others including LW, scrape the turf, and still spin the ball plenty... Reason I scrap with LW is its seldom used over 60yds.
[/quote]

Having played true blades for 30 yrs...Hogan Apex PC's and having become a sweeper after digging to China one day just after I got those Hogans and broke my right hand in the process, I totally agree with your post. A divot is not necessary with blades, in order to get either distance or spin. In fact, I always chose a ball just below the one that spun the most, beacause I got too much spin with balata in the old days and balls such as PROV1 or 1X today. I get all the spin I need in the NXT Tour ball. And I'm still sweeping it.

[Skaffa77]

[quote name='rkangrah' timestamp='1322701093' post='3873445']
[quote name='Pepperturbo' timestamp='1322699618' post='3873359']
Purely struck muscle back will go farther, least for me. But, there are occasions where game improvement CB flies farther, thanks to the trampoline effect of perimeter weighting, and in many hands, direction is up for grabs... An friend plays CB's... He swings his back out to hit each club as far as he can. Result = ugly dispersion and variable distances. We're the same age, and he'd hit his 7i as far as my 5i at times, but can't do it consistently. He does enjoy lots of forgiveness, and never comes up short;.but fly's too many greens.. I don't think there's an absolute answer ... it depends on swing mechanics and the size of the sweet spot.

Older blades had higher and smaller, dime like sweet spots, closer to the face and heal. Contemporary blade sweet spots are lower, away from the face, about nickel in size; reason they are easier to hit. CB's have a bit larger, but somewhat defused sweet spot because of perimeter weighting forgiveness. Reason someone can miss half the sweet spot and still realize close to their standard distance. I've been playing original X-Forged since 07, intermingled with blades. X-Forged are blade like with minimal forgiveness... They feel like my original 670MB's when struck on the screw, because of heavy sole weighting, and sweet spot size is similar to a blade. My 2cents.
[/quote]

Muscle back are the forged iron with a cavity. Is it? Like the old Nike Pro Combo....?
[/quote]

No one answered this poor guy's question.

Musclebacks are your modern day blade (Titleist 710/712 MB, Mizuno MP33/67/68/69, Cobra Pro MB, etc.). They have a full back (no major cavity), but have a pronounced "muscle" or bulge on the back that helps position some of the weight on the iron in specific places. Some will say calling a muscleback a blade is heresy as the old school blades have a pure flat back.

The old Nike Pro Combo would be a forged cavity back much like the Titleist 710/712 CB.