What makes a shaft worth $1,000

[Tyler Harris]

Simple question. I see shafts on eBay for $1,000 (matrix) and I think "who the hell pays that much for a shaft and what makes it better than a $300 dollar shaft" I had a really hard time shelling out the money for my Oban and that wasn't even close to a thousand bucks

[TigerStrong]

Companies...

Then the people who pay for them.

[KDMullins]

The Matrix TP HDs are about the only shafts I know of that command that kind of price tag at retail. I've hear the TP6HD is one of the best shafts made for the player it fits. That said, it's not "worth" a thousand bucks. You really can't justify what I'll classify as a luxury purchase in terms of whether or not it's worth it. First of all, it's just way too subjective, and second (really just a component of the same point), it all depends on your discretionary income. For some guys, the difference between spending a grand and $300 bucks is a non-issue.

It's kind of like buying a Mercedes S Class. Is it really worth it when you can get a loaded up Maxima, Avalon, etc. for $40,000? Most would say probably not, and yet, people still want the S Class, and the S Class is an outstanding automobile.

[Nessism]

The Mercedes analogy is pretty good. I used to work for a Japanese OEM and they would take a regular model, spend $1000 more upgrading trim pieces, then jack the price $8000 and sell it under the premium brand name. Marketing at it's finest.

[EaglesGolf99]

Ironic this topic has been created, myself and fellow board member, mbeyel, had this EXACT conversation a week ago yesterday. After 3 holes of discussing it, we were still left without a clean answer. I use 300 dollar shafts, hell, I think the most expensive shaft I ever got was like 350, but for the performance I got from it, I couldn't imagine spending 1000 would make me a consistant 320 yard bomber!

[EaglesGolf99]

... to add, at some point its gotta be the Indian and not the arrow!

[Tyler Harris]

[quote name='Raidersgolf99' timestamp='1323622071' post='3923987']
... to add, at some point its gotta be the Indian and not the arrow!
[/quote]
+infinity

[KDMullins]

[quote name='Tyler Harris' timestamp='1323622601' post='3924007']
[quote name='Raidersgolf99' timestamp='1323622071' post='3923987']
... to add, at some point its gotta be the Indian and not the arrow!
[/quote]
+infinity
[/quote]
It's always the Indian. A better shaft will make the Indian better, but a better shaft will not make an Indian the Chief.

[EaglesGolf99]

[quote name='KDMullins' timestamp='1323622921' post='3924027']
[quote name='Tyler Harris' timestamp='1323622601' post='3924007']
[quote name='Raidersgolf99' timestamp='1323622071' post='3923987']
... to add, at some point its gotta be the Indian and not the arrow!
[/quote]
+infinity
[/quote]
It's always the Indian. A better shaft will make the Indian better, but a better shaft will not make an Indian the Chief.
[/quote]

I like that!

[MtlJeff]

the car analogy is a great one. What makes it better is in the eye of the beholder...and if the beholder is rolling PHAT then spending 1000$ is no big deal. I mean why not?

But i've used 40$ shafts up to 350$ shafts and some of my best drives were hit with GD pershings i got for 39$ and Graffaloy Blue's i got for even less. I've also used Whiteboards and Blueboards, and Fubuki's and i don't know what makes them better, they feel different. But "better" to me means in the fairway more and/or longer

There may be research out there that shows dispersion is better with a TP7HD over an Aldila NV....but unless you notice it in real terms....

[jaskanski]

The car analogy is somewhat accurate. A Mercedes is an awesome car with plenty of toys, but cheaper models with similar levels of equipment are available. What the cheaper models can't match however is the level of design and innovation that has gone into producing that marque. Just about every gizmo that has been conceived in a car probably started life in a Mercedes S Class. They're ahead of the game in terms of what a car is capable of.
That's where the shaft parallel could be considered. It's not just the cost of tooling and the raw materials that go into making a shaft, but it's the design and innovation behind it. When you buy a made-to-measure suit, you're not buying into the cost of the material behind it, you're buying into the skill and craftsmanship of the guy that makes it.
This is probably where the $1000 shaft scores. It uses quality materials and technology, it has ages of design and testing input time behind it and it will perform at the upper limit of what any human can put into it.
Rather similar to the S Class.
But also, if we're really honest, 98% of the cost of the S Class goes into that little badge on the front grille. Without it, you wouldn't be able to demand the high cost and it wouldn't sell anyway. The brand logo alone is good enough for some. That's how Matrix also sell shafts. Reputation, yes - but perhaps a little bit of "Emperors Clothes" syndrome too.

[MKSmith]

I don't think anyone is paying $1,000 just because it has a matrix logo, plenty of matrix to be had for that of normal prices. I picked up a TP-7 for $250 and bought it on a whim...Great move on my part, because I truely love this shaft in my drivers, 1st the supertri and now the R11...it has gone up against just about everything and always comes out on top. Everyone I let test it has a weird look on their face when done, because at times you can actually feel the ball compress on the face of the club. Do I recommend people buying one-no....would I buy another one if this one was stolden-no...would I be heart sick if something happened to it-yes

[KDMullins]

[quote name='jaskanski' timestamp='1323625221' post='3924139']
The car analogy is somewhat accurate. A Mercedes is an awesome car with plenty of toys, but cheaper models with similar levels of equipment are available. What the cheaper models can't match however is the level of design and innovation that has gone into producing that marque. Just about every gizmo that has been conceived in a car probably started life in a Mercedes S Class. They're ahead of the game in terms of what a car is capable of.
That's where the shaft parallel could be considered. It's not just the cost of tooling and the raw materials that go into making a shaft, but it's the design and innovation behind it. When you buy a made-to-measure suit, you're not buying into the cost of the material behind it, you're buying into the skill and craftsmanship of the guy that makes it.
This is probably where the $1000 shaft scores. It uses quality materials and technology, it has ages of design and testing input time behind it and it will perform at the upper limit of what any human can put into it.
Rather similar to the S Class.
But also, if we're really honest, 98% of the cost of the S Class goes into that little badge on the front grille. Without it, you wouldn't be able to demand the high cost and it wouldn't sell anyway. The brand logo alone is good enough for some. That's how Matrix also sell shafts. Reputation, yes - but perhaps a little bit of "Emperors Clothes" syndrome too.
[/quote]

No question. Name brands associated with quality and craftsmanship can sell their goods exponentially higher than a similar offering from a competitor brand. It's why Ralph Lauren is on the Forbes 400 list. Whether you think it's "worth it" to buy an $80 golf shirt can be debated. What can't be debated (reasonably) IMO is the quality of the shirt.

[topr]

Golf equipment, cars, high end A/V equipment...it's all same, everybody has their own point of diminishing returns. The question isn't, " what's it's worth"..the question is, "what's it worth to you"?

[JCAG]

Along these lines. Some years back Callaway decided to sell their shafts as components via Golfsmith. When Callaway was deciding on pricing one thing they said they wanted to do was keep the price artifically high enough to eliminate it showing up in clone/copy/cheap club market. Their belief was that if they priced it high enough then only "serious" people would buy and use it.

Sometimes pricing is simply whatever the market will bear pricing. It can set a very high (sometimes artifically so) standard for your product eliminate the riffraff buyers.

[SPY ZINGER]

[quote name='accufitgolf' timestamp='1323637266' post='3924725']
Along these lines. Some years back Callaway decided to sell their shafts as components via Golfsmith. When Callaway was deciding on pricing one thing they said they wanted to do was keep the price artifically high enough to eliminate it showing up in clone/copy/cheap club market. Their belief was that if they priced it high enough then only "serious" people would buy and use it.

Sometimes pricing is simply whatever the market will bear pricing. It can set a very high (sometimes artifically so) standard for your product eliminate the riffraff buyers.
[/quote]
What? The I mix?

[williamo]

A friend of mine who is on tour is gaming a TP6HD in his R11. He didn't even know what he had in his driver and when I looked at it I got quite shocked! I tried the driver and it felt pretty nice but not like a Kai'li... I really love diamanas but still this was a nice shaft. Felt smooth even though it was in X flex. I think it was pretty cool that it had the R11 graphics.

/W

[nitram]

someone willing to pay it.

[RookieBlue7]

1. They give away more than they sell, jacking the price up.
2. Lifetime warranty.


Are they worth it? No, but that's what you're paying for.

[EaglesGolf99]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1323640536' post='3924893']
1. They give away more than they sell, jacking the price up.
2. Lifetime warranty.


Are they worth it? No, but that's what you're paying for.
[/quote]

Lifetime warranty? Is that on all Matrix shafts?

[Awalkspoiled]

[quote name='Raidersgolf99' timestamp='1323649182' post='3925435']
[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1323640536' post='3924893']
1. They give away more than they sell, jacking the price up.
2. Lifetime warranty.


Are they worth it? No, but that's what you're paying for.
[/quote]

Lifetime warranty? Is that on all Matrix shafts?
[/quote]

Yes, to the original purchaser, against damage in normal play, if installed by an authorized dealer. True of most shaft companies, actually, if you know whom to ask.

Mostly they'll want to inspect the shaft for signs of abuse, but if I or another long-time dealer calls and says it broke in normal play and was being used by a regular customer, they'll usually just ship a replacement. Oddly enough the most common break for the high-end shafts is about halfway up, and comes from the shaft hitting the player's back in the followthrough.

To answer the original question, the $1K shafts have extraordinarily smooth feel, excellent stability giving them a wide fitting range especially for stronger players wanting to play a relatively soft flex, low spin and very high ballspeed. They're not worth $1,000 except in the sense that one such shaft MIGHT make it unneccessary to buy two or three new $400 drivers. However, the guy who pays retail for a TP7HD is probably also going to buy one or more new drivers every year anyway, so... The Mercedes analogy is a good one in a sense - both products will do things which are nice but not strictly speaking necessary. Both are likely never to be pressed to the limits of their performance or durability by the owner, so the high limits aren't really all that relevant.

Matrix doesn't make any money on them directly, because by far the majority are given away to tour players, and they're incredibly labor-intensive to build. Indirectly, they're a real money maker because having a $1k shaft in the line makes the $300 XCons look like a relative bargain, and it also put the brand in people's awareness. Tour Edge reaped similar advantages from the Exotics $349 pricetag.

If you want a biased opinion, the best value in the Matrix line is very expensive but actually the step below - $450 - because the Altus, Altus Pro, F6M2 and F7M2 all have one or another feature not found in any other shafts, notwithstanding Tom Wishon's assertion that any midweight shaft can be performance matched at a $60 pricepoint or whatever. I've seen no $60 shaft, or even $150 shaft, from TWGT or anyone else, which does what an Altus does, or an XCon 5. Obviously those M2 shafts aren't worth the money either, for most people.

However, I've sold a LOT of them, and most are still in play. Never heard one player say they weren't a good purchase, and since a shaft like that comes with a performance guarantee from any good builder I would have heard, I think. Sometimes I'll get a note from a customer asking if I can replicate a setup he unwisely sold in favor of the next great thing, or asking for a backup, and these shafts are so consistent that it's usually not difficult to do something like that. The $450 shafts are still not worth the money, unless they are.

I played a TP7x for a while, before selling it as a well-used demo, and still have a TP7HD in the rotation for when I'm feeling burly. FWIW I've sold NO 1K shafts at full retail - none at all.

A well-fitted shaft in a driver is absolutely essential for scoring, but the scoring difference between a well-fitted $80 shaft and a well-fitted $450 shaft is probably not even a shot per round. Honestly the only practical way to improve scoring once the tee ball is in play is putting and chipping. However, in terms of the satisfaction one takes from the game, smooth powerful feel, an arching trajectory which lands hot, the confidence that the club will do what it's done before - tough to put a pricetag on those.

[SoCalTitleist]

This is like the high dollar shirt thread going on.

[whatshannenin]

[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1323652538' post='3925641']
[quote name='Raidersgolf99' timestamp='1323649182' post='3925435']
[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1323640536' post='3924893']
1. They give away more than they sell, jacking the price up.
2. Lifetime warranty.


Are they worth it? No, but that's what you're paying for.
[/quote]

Lifetime warranty? Is that on all Matrix shafts?
[/quote]

Yes, to the original purchaser, against damage in normal play, if installed by an authorized dealer. True of most shaft companies, actually, if you know whom to ask.

Mostly they'll want to inspect the shaft for signs of abuse, but if I or another long-time dealer calls and says it broke in normal play and was being used by a regular customer, they'll usually just ship a replacement. Oddly enough the most common break for the high-end shafts is about halfway up, and comes from the shaft hitting the player's back in the followthrough.

To answer the original question, the $1K shafts have extraordinarily smooth feel, excellent stability giving them a wide fitting range especially for stronger players wanting to play a relatively soft flex, low spin and very high ballspeed. They're not worth $1,000 except in the sense that one such shaft MIGHT make it unneccessary to buy two or three new $400 drivers. However, the guy who pays retail for a TP7HD is probably also going to buy one or more new drivers every year anyway, so... The Mercedes analogy is a good one in a sense - both products will do things which are nice but not strictly speaking necessary. Both are likely never to be pressed to the limits of their performance or durability by the owner, so the high limits aren't really all that relevant.

Matrix doesn't make any money on them directly, because by far the majority are given away to tour players, and they're incredibly labor-intensive to build. Indirectly, they're a real money maker because having a $1k shaft in the line makes the $300 XCons look like a relative bargain, and it also put the brand in people's awareness. Tour Edge reaped similar advantages from the Exotics $349 pricetag.

If you want a biased opinion, the best value in the Matrix line is very expensive but actually the step below - $450 - because the Altus, Altus Pro, F6M2 and F7M2 all have one or another feature not found in any other shafts, notwithstanding Tom Wishon's assertion that any midweight shaft can be performance matched at a $60 pricepoint or whatever. I've seen no $60 shaft, or even $150 shaft, from TWGT or anyone else, which does what an Altus does, or an XCon 5. Obviously those M2 shafts aren't worth the money either, for most people.

However, I've sold a LOT of them, and most are still in play. Never heard one player say they weren't a good purchase, and since a shaft like that comes with a performance guarantee from any good builder I would have heard, I think. Sometimes I'll get a note from a customer asking if I can replicate a setup he unwisely sold in favor of the next great thing, or asking for a backup, and these shafts are so consistent that it's usually not difficult to do something like that. The $450 shafts are still not worth the money, unless they are.

I played a TP7x for a while, before selling it as a well-used demo, and still have a TP7HD in the rotation for when I'm feeling burly. FWIW I've sold NO 1K shafts at full retail - none at all.

A well-fitted shaft in a driver is absolutely essential for scoring, but the scoring difference between a well-fitted $80 shaft and a well-fitted $450 shaft is probably not even a shot per round. Honestly the only practical way to improve scoring once the tee ball is in play is putting and chipping. However, in terms of the satisfaction one takes from the game, smooth powerful feel, an arching trajectory which lands hot, the confidence that the club will do what it's done before - tough to put a pricetag on those.
[/quote]

Great post! Couldn't agree more, TPHD's are even hard to sell for their wholesale price. I never thought about Matrix pricing them high to make the other lines seem like a bargain, but if so, it's a smart scheme as people debate and complain about the price.....therefore Matrix gets brand recognition. Also, yes, they give away TONS of TPHD's on Tour and contrary to what people think, it's a shaft used by a LOT of players, but they are usually in TM graphics, so you wouldn't be able to tell anyway. I hate the shaft personally, doesn't fit me....even though I'd like it to because the white graphics are cool looking. Love their Code 8 for fairway though.

[EaglesGolf99]

[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1323652538' post='3925641']
[quote name='Raidersgolf99' timestamp='1323649182' post='3925435']
[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1323640536' post='3924893']
1. They give away more than they sell, jacking the price up.
2. Lifetime warranty.


Are they worth it? No, but that's what you're paying for.
[/quote]

Lifetime warranty? Is that on all Matrix shafts?
[/quote]

Yes, to the original purchaser, against damage in normal play, if installed by an authorized dealer. True of most shaft companies, actually, if you know whom to ask.

Mostly they'll want to inspect the shaft for signs of abuse, but if I or another long-time dealer calls and says it broke in normal play and was being used by a regular customer, they'll usually just ship a replacement. Oddly enough the most common break for the high-end shafts is about halfway up, and comes from the shaft hitting the player's back in the followthrough.

To answer the original question, the $1K shafts have extraordinarily smooth feel, excellent stability giving them a wide fitting range especially for stronger players wanting to play a relatively soft flex, low spin and very high ballspeed. They're not worth $1,000 except in the sense that one such shaft MIGHT make it unneccessary to buy two or three new $400 drivers. However, the guy who pays retail for a TP7HD is probably also going to buy one or more new drivers every year anyway, so... The Mercedes analogy is a good one in a sense - both products will do things which are nice but not strictly speaking necessary. Both are likely never to be pressed to the limits of their performance or durability by the owner, so the high limits aren't really all that relevant.

[b]Matrix doesn't make any money on them directly, because by far the majority are given away to tour players, and they're incredibly labor-intensive to build. Indirectly, they're a real money maker because having a $1k shaft in the line makes the $300 XCons look like a relative bargain, and it also put the brand in people's awareness. Tour Edge reaped similar advantages from the Exotics $349 pricetag.

[/b]If you want a biased opinion, the best value in the Matrix line is very expensive but actually the step below - $450 - because the Altus, Altus Pro, F6M2 and F7M2 all have one or another feature not found in any other shafts, notwithstanding Tom Wishon's assertion that any midweight shaft can be performance matched at a $60 pricepoint or whatever. I've seen no $60 shaft, or even $150 shaft, from TWGT or anyone else, which does what an Altus does, or an XCon 5. Obviously those M2 shafts aren't worth the money either, for most people.

However, I've sold a LOT of them, and most are still in play. Never heard one player say they weren't a good purchase, and since a shaft like that comes with a performance guarantee from any good builder I would have heard, I think. Sometimes I'll get a note from a customer asking if I can replicate a setup he unwisely sold in favor of the next great thing, or asking for a backup, and these shafts are so consistent that it's usually not difficult to do something like that. The $450 shafts are still not worth the money, unless they are.

I played a TP7x for a while, before selling it as a well-used demo, and still have a TP7HD in the rotation for when I'm feeling burly. FWIW I've sold NO 1K shafts at full retail - none at all.

A well-fitted shaft in a driver is absolutely essential for scoring, but the scoring difference between a well-fitted $80 shaft and a well-fitted $450 shaft is probably not even a shot per round. Honestly the only practical way to improve scoring once the tee ball is in play is putting and chipping. However, in terms of the satisfaction one takes from the game, smooth powerful feel, an arching trajectory which lands hot, the confidence that the club will do what it's done before - tough to put a pricetag on those.
[/quote]

Not to change subjects toooooo much, can you explain that Exotics reference a bit more. That confused me.

PS - Great post about Matrix. I own 4 (AltusLT, Code8, 2 X-Con8h).

[MadGolfer76]

If I ever get to the point where I could consider spending 1K on a GOLF SHAFT (people)...I think I might just give the money to a food bank or other good cause. Fine, I will be the lone holdout on this one:

NO SHAFT IS WORTH $1K.

[EaglesGolf99]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1323721119' post='3929087']
If I ever get to the point where I could consider spending 1K on a GOLF SHAFT (people)...I think I might just give the money to a food bank or other good cause. Fine, I will be the lone holdout on this one:

NO SHAFT IS WORTH $1K.
[/quote]

I'll stand alongside of you!

[fore_life]

Agreed that no way is it worth 1000. I'd probably say too that 300 or even 150 seems like too much haha

[smoky25]

Better be a naked woman holding on to one end of it.

[pingman1]

read Tom Wishon's post "10 Myths about Shafts" posted on Dec. 10th

[MtlJeff]

[quote name='Raidersgolf99' timestamp='1323725922' post='3929531']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1323721119' post='3929087']
If I ever get to the point where I could consider spending 1K on a GOLF SHAFT (people)...I think I might just give the money to a food bank or other good cause. Fine, I will be the lone holdout on this one:

NO SHAFT IS WORTH $1K.
[/quote]

I'll stand alongside of you!
[/quote]

yeah i'm with you too man, i just understand why people who are rolling in it will buy one. I mean it's the same reason someone buys a Bugatti Veyron instead of a Porsche 911 turbo. A Porsche 911 Turbo can do anything you really need your car to do and more, but if you're making 25M a year why not get one. I mean why not? (well, excluding that maybe you should give it to charity)