How much does talent matter for older players?

[Yuck]

I was thinking about players who stay competitive until they are on the champions tour, and then still stack up well against the old dudes in competition. Using Calcaveccia as an example, why is he still competitve? I am assuming his longevity as a competitor is not tied to fitness, technique, mental toughness, or brilliant course managment or work ethic. So what is left? Talent? Does talent really make up for all the other deficiencies? Would Calc have been a world class player with better fitness, technique, work ethic, and a better head on his shoulders? There are just so many players who had better swings, practiced hard, good head on their shoulders, and they could not stay competitive into their late 40's. What causes many players to lose "it", and some to keep it?

[Thrillhouse]

Thats really interesting, I think one of the problems we will run into when talking about champions tour players is that they are all talented individuals, but I guess the easiest way to get this thing going is to use the calc example.

1. Why is calc still competitive?

I would say lack of injury is big for a champions tour player and calc has been fortunate in that regard as far as I know (no major surgeries I believe, I think some wrist bumps and bruises is it, correct me if im wrong), I think something else that is relevant is that the way he plays the game is relatively simple, he hits that fade with every club and has a fairly simple move without too many extra moving parts, I think that makes it easier to stay competitive than someone like say, Sandy Lyle who has a few extra moves that make timing more critical.

2. I am assuming his longevity as a competitor is not tied to fitness, technique, mental toughness, or brilliant course managment or work ethic

Well, not fitness in the traditional sense, but like I said I don't think he has suffered major injuries so the ability to avoid injury is sort of a kind of fitness isnt it? But yes, he is a little overweight and doesnt look like he spends a lot of time on the treadmill but the fitness thing is a whole other debate. I would say that his course management as far as his ability to manage his own game around a course is pretty good, i mean, I really like watching him play and how he works his way around the golf course. The other stuff you kind of have a point on.

3. [color=#1C2837][size=2]Would Calc have been a world class player with better fitness, technique, work ethic, and a better head on his shoulders? [/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]Personally I don't think so, I don't think those other things matter as much as some others will argue. He might have been as good, but I really don't think anything else would have made him better. I think the reason he was a world class player is because he had a repeating swing, a consistent ball flight, a good wedge and short game, and at times was and is a very good putter. Like most tour players the reason he is on the PGA (or champions) tour is because he is good at golf, so I guess to answer your question I personally believe that talent matters a lot. [/size][/color]

[Hambone1]

There is also the flip side to it. There have been players who got in better shape and their play suffered. Most recent and obvious example, David Duval. Played some amazing golf as a slightly pudgy, average built guy. Got in great shape, looked pretty cut, and the game goes south, Granted, I know he had some vertigo issues and some other things going on, but I believe there is a direct connection.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='Hambone1' timestamp='1325484432' post='4016355']
There is also the flip side to it. There have been players who got in better shape and their play suffered. Most recent and obvious example, David Duval. Played some amazing golf as a slightly pudgy, average built guy. Got in great shape, looked pretty cut, and the game goes south, Granted, I know he had some vertigo issues and some other things going on, but I believe there is a direct connection.
[/quote]

Yup, Craig Stadler lost 40 pounds at one point and said that he played terribly (although there is a chance he just missed his beer!), Keith Clearwater didn't lose a bunch of weight but got really into weightlifting and attributed all of his new muscle bulk to his swing getting really short and quick and losing his game. The fitness thing is a funny one to me, I certainly agree that it can be beneficial to keeping a player healthier and more likely to be injury free, and also can be beneficial in the points in rounds and tournaments where fatigue becomes a factor, a more in shape player will undoubtedly perform better when he or she is tired than an out of shape player. On the flip side a lot of people get hurt working out, it doesn't seem like a simple thing at all to me.

[PGArox]

So much of everything we do in life stems from the degree of passion, determination and desire we bring to an endeavor.

A man of seemingly average skill may accomplish much more than others suspect he's capable of, while an ultra-talented guy may fall short of others' expectations.

[Thrillhouse]

heres some calc quotes that might be relevant to this thread:

http://www.famousquotes.com/author/mark-calcavecchia/2

 Mark Calcavecchia - “I don't like to practice, I don't like to work out, ... There are a lot of things that I should be doing that I don't like to do. I was blessed with a God-given talent to play golf, is all I can say.”


 Mark Calcavecchia - “I can honestly say I never thought I would say that I actually win a tournament using my head.”

 Mark Calcavecchia - “Tee-to-green, I'm streaky, but I'm still very good at times, ... My short game, as far as bunker and chipping, is still pretty good.”


 
 Mark Calcavecchia - “That's just my nature. When things go good for me I'm streaky and I'm very good. And when they go bad for me I lose it.”

 Mark Calcavecchia - “But like Faxon and Browne, he's been around a while, and he knew how to handle it. Well, I honestly never really thought I would win again, let alone on a golf course like this, a tournament this big, ... You know, I have my moments where I'm pretty good, and as I said the other day, I have a lot of self doubt and a lot of demons that are floating around inside of my head. Brenda his wife told me from the day she met me, you have it, just your little brain gets in the way. It happens to a lot of guys the things we think about out there pretty much freak you out.”

[cxx]

Natural Talent is the biggest factor for all players, young and old, barring injury or eventual age/use related failures (shoulders,knees, hips....) There is the expression "you can't put in what God left out" which has at least some truth to it.

Calc has avoided injury but I think his strength is the ability to go from flat to on fire with 2-3 good swings. There is something about him that lets him forget the old and go with the new, resulting in strings of birdies.

Couples has done really well on the champions tour with the bad back he's been fighting for years, so its not just survival.

[jaskanski]

Talent works. I'm reminded of Greg Norman and Tom Watson from recent Open Championships. Greg's masterclass of shot making and Tom's finesse had something to do with them leading in the final round of the championship. Obviously older than many of their counterparts in the running, did their physical ability and fitness have any effect of much younger and fitter guys? Or did the knowledge they had learned over the years keep them in contention? The latter would seem to be the case.

[leoh923]

Hard work, a good head on your shoulders, fitness, and practice don't mean squat if you don't have a certain level of natural talent.

[RRFireblade]

Experience and gained knowledge.

Can't buy it , can't put it in a box and sell it.

[MrParr1Noid]

[quote name='leoh923' timestamp='1325527296' post='4017715']
Hard work, a good head on your shoulders, fitness, and practice don't mean squat if you don't have a certain level of natural talent.
[/quote]

A certain level of natural talent don't mean squat if you don't have a certain level of hard work, a good head on your shoulders, fitness, and some practice... .02

[leoh923]

[quote name='MrParr1Noid' timestamp='1325534549' post='4018207']
[quote name='leoh923' timestamp='1325527296' post='4017715']
Hard work, a good head on your shoulders, fitness, and practice don't mean squat if you don't have a certain level of natural talent.
[/quote]

A certain level of natural talent don't mean squat if you don't have a certain level of hard work, a good head on your shoulders, fitness, and some practice... .02
[/quote]

I agree, you need a combination of ALL to be successful.

[MrParr1Noid]

[quote name='leoh923' timestamp='1325544015' post='4018949']
[quote name='MrParr1Noid' timestamp='1325534549' post='4018207']
[quote name='leoh923' timestamp='1325527296' post='4017715']
Hard work, a good head on your shoulders, fitness, and practice don't mean squat if you don't have a certain level of natural talent.
[/quote]

A certain level of natural talent don't mean squat if you don't have a certain level of hard work, a good head on your shoulders, fitness, and some practice... .02
[/quote]

I agree, you need a combination of ALL to be successful.
[/quote]

Actually, does anyone know unless they're the one who's been or are successful but then again, they (the successful one) may not know what to credit their success to...

[Body_Visions]

And Calc has had relatively little success on the Senior tour. Figure that one out.


Maybe the PGA tour guys are good, but the Seniors are a little better?

[MadGolfer76]

Determination trumps talent at any age.

[Big Ben]

I've never seen anybody string together birdies like Calc does when he gets hot, he's dumb like a fox and more competitive than you think. It can be argued that golf is a game more than a sport (and I HATE saying that)...BB

[Yuck]

[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1325562528' post='4020331']
And Calc has had relatively little success on the Senior tour. Figure that one out.


Maybe the PGA tour guys are good, but the Seniors are a little better?
[/quote]

Little success? Calc almost won the Schwab cup. (Down to the last stroke for the season). In the hunt for all majors and led in top tens? What would success be like?

[Body_Visions]

[quote name='yuck' timestamp='1325615696' post='4022351']
[quote name='Body_Visions' timestamp='1325562528' post='4020331']
And Calc has had relatively little success on the Senior tour. Figure that one out.


Maybe the PGA tour guys are good, but the Seniors are a little better?
[/quote]

Little success? Calc almost won the Schwab cup. (Down to the last stroke for the season). In the hunt for all majors and led in top tens? What would success be like?
[/quote]


Dominating the tour? He certainly should have in my opinion. He had a good year, but certainly not what I, and many others I am sure, expected.


I am a big fan, by the way.

[gators78]

Because the guys you're referring to grew up realizing that scoring always means more than style.



Some got in shape for whatever reason and learned it didn't help scoring.

Some changed their swings to look better and learned it didn't help scoring.

Some got an entourage of coaches to tell them how to play and it didn't help scoring.


Those guys are how I wish I grew up playing. It was impressed upon me the better your swing looked the better I'd play, which is totally wrong. Calc looks like he tries to make 500 birdies a round and doesn't care about anything else.

[3whacker]

everyone on TOUR has talent or they wouldnt be out there, but its the ones that are mentally strong and can perform under pressure divides the stars from the field

[HCEG1]

[quote name='3whacker' timestamp='1325837041' post='4036325']
everyone on TOUR has talent or they wouldnt be out there, but its the ones that are mentally strong and can perform under pressure divides the stars from the field
[/quote]

And hole lots of putts....

[Yuck]

With another top 10 in the Open from Calc, I thought I would resurrect this thread. I still believe Calc could still win a regular tour event if he got hot at the right time.

[SooperLooper]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1325562658' post='4020341']
Determination trumps talent at any age.
[/quote]

Unfortunately I learned a long time ago that this is often not true. When at bat, fast balls that my friends could crush would blip by me before I even knew what happened. I still struggle throwing a spiral football pass - - but I've had many friends who could pick up a ball and heave it down field in a beautiful tight spiral. You don't want to know what my vertical leaping abilities are (e.g., basketball). And I could go on and on.

Talent can be overwhelming - - and sometimes unbeatable. No matter how determined I am I'm never going to run anything like Usain Bolt. He has those fast twitch muscles - - many of us don't. And that's the way it is.

[JH123]

Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. If a athletes total potential is 100 all talent does is gives that athlete a higher staring point, say 40, they then have to work hard to reach their total potential. Many of the best athletes in the world were blessed with a lot of talent but it would be foolish to believe that guys like Tiger, Lebron, Kobe, Jordan weren't also the ones who worked the hardest. On the flip side there are guys who have had a ton of talent but didn't want to work hard enough ie, Jamarcus Russell thus never reaced their full potential

[SooperLooper]

[quote name='JH123' timestamp='1343022367' post='5332302']
Hard work beats talent when talent doesn't work hard. If a athletes total potential is 100 all talent does is gives that athlete a higher staring point, say 40, they then have to work hard to reach their total potential. Many of the best athletes in the world were blessed with a lot of talent but it would be foolish to believe that guys like Tiger, Lebron, Kobe, Jordan weren't also the ones who worked the hardest. On the flip side there are guys who have had a ton of talent but didn't want to work hard enough ie, Jamarcus Russell thus never reaced their full potential
[/quote]

Sure, I agree with this. It is all about maximizing the (potential) talent you have. I remember reading an article (sorry, can't find it right now) where it showed that EVERY SINGLE world-class concert pianist had been a child prodigy. Not all child prodigies had that success - - but the prodigies who continued to dedicate themselves are the ones who made it. But the point was that if you were not a "child prodigy" that you had essentially no chance for success in this field.

With regards to golf are guys like, say, Tom Kite and Luke Donald extraorindary raw talents - - or are they truly average athletes who just worked their way to the top? I don't know the answer to this one. Maybe golf is a field where hard work can overcome talent to more extent than in others.

I guess in the end it comes back to the nature vs nurture question.

[MakoFury]

combo of evertyhing

[Ristlager]

Talent is such a stupid word. As it totally negates all the countless hours the kid has spent training. I have been inside sports my whole life, and there have never been an insident where the best one is not the one which had trained most and best (often overlooked). I am aware that we are buildt differently (short, high, smart, fast etc) but in complex sports which combines several moves noone is born better than others. There is no golfswing ingrained in our genes, same as there isn't freethrow gene lurking. All these stuff has to be learned, and that is by reps and nothing more.

In order to make such talents one thing is important: having an interest in something as a child and wanting to practise it. And having an athletich upbringing with diversified activities. You can't expect a child which has spent his first 5-7 years on his arse playing videogames (worst case) to be as "talented" as a kid which had been playing sports his whole life.

[RRFireblade]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1325562658' post='4020341']
Determination trumps talent at any age.
[/quote]

Determination just means you will keep running head first into a brick wall hoping you break through.

Talent means I know exactly where the door is.