Lie Angle Question - 1 or 2 deg - Does it matter???

[MichMan123]

Honest Question here

After getting fit 3 times I know my 6 iron lie angle should be 61 deg (Mizuno standard), maybe 61.5...

Question though - I don't have a repeatable swing to be honest. Am I really coming down on the ball at the same angle time and time again?? Does 1 or 2 deg make that much of a difference?

Also on the course you never really have a perfectly flat lie anyways. I'm sure the ground is not perfectly flat and 1 or 2 deg shouldn't make a difference.

When swinging well the club should hit the ball before the ground anyways so why does it matter??


Can some experienced club guys answer this?

[Buzzkill]

To me it doesn't really matter. I've tried standard and all the way to 4 degrees flat. I'm able to adjust my swing accordingly so anyway I don't think it's a big deal. I'm sure a lot others would think differently here though.

[anth]

Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.

[DColton]

1 or 2 degrees will promote a draw or fade bias, depending on how flat or upright, as the picture above shows

also be aware that the static lie angle (at impact) is more important than the lie angle at address

[finalist]

I've spent a lot of time recently hitting marked balls (they leave a line on the face that points in various directions depending on lie angles) and trying different lengths and lie angles. What I found was not only direction is influenced but so is the quality of the strike. For example irons that are too flat tend to set me up with a bit of a reach at address and toe shots are more common. Granted I can adjust but hving the proper lie angle just makes it a bit more easier. IMO it's worth having the correct lie to help improve misses.

[mac94]

It's very important for the reasons stated above-mentioned

[NPVWhiz]

This is one of the most difficult things to pin down for more accomplished players, because they do have the ability to manipulate their swing a bit to compensate for the movement of the ball that results from the combination of a good strike with a club that is too flat or upright. I think that every good player should work to nail this down, but when people tinker with different types of equipment..especially iron shafts, it's difficult.

A really good ball striker will almost subconciously make adjustments on the range to offset the movement of the ball when lie angle is off. I'm a firm believer that players have a natural tendency for an impact position that derives in part, admittedly, from their experience with their current set. A good fitter will recognize this and will work to have the player hit balls without looking at where the ball is going, but just focusing on a solid, square shot. That way the fitter can gauge whether the player is using their abilty to swing a little unnaturally to make the ball to straighter. This is the type of swing habit that breaks down under pressure unless it is engrained over months, or years of consistent practice with the same setup.

Eventually, I hope, there will be new methods of evaluating lie angle at impact....Trackman-like approaches or high-speed camera techniques that can reveal the actual attitude of the head at impact...which can then be correlated with the ball flight pattern to show the player that "here is a shot where the dynamic attitude of the head is upright at impact by 1.7 degrees, and here is where the ball ended up left of your intended target".


Over time, I've figured out how to evaluate this for myself. I can tell within a few shots and by looking at the way the club soles and whether the shaft is firmer or softer than my current setup (which I've used for many, many years) whether the lie angles are correct for a given set..but I also just watch what the ball is doing out on the course and if there is a tendency one way or the other, I make small tweaks accordingly.

[CheckJV]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1325654512' post='4025931']
I've spent a lot of time recently hitting marked balls (they leave a line on the face that points in various directions depending on lie angles) and trying different lengths and lie angles. What I found was not only direction is influenced but so is the quality of the strike. For example irons that are too flat tend to set me up with a bit of a reach at address and toe shots are more common. Granted I can adjust but hving the proper lie angle just makes it a bit more easier. IMO it's worth having the correct lie to help improve misses.
[/quote]

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[Awalkspoiled]

[quote name='CheckJV' timestamp='1325680679' post='4026423']
[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1325654512' post='4025931']
I've spent a lot of time recently hitting marked balls (they leave a line on the face that points in various directions depending on lie angles) and trying different lengths and lie angles. What I found was not only direction is influenced but so is the quality of the strike. For example irons that are too flat tend to set me up with a bit of a reach at address and toe shots are more common. Granted I can adjust but hving the proper lie angle just makes it a bit more easier. IMO it's worth having the correct lie to help improve misses.
[/quote]

[size="4"]+1
[/size]
[/quote]

This is a great technique for checking dynamic lie angle. I'd add that one of the most important reasons for proper lie angle is that it assures you of proper setup. Then, for a different shot shape or slope you adjust ONE thing, not eight things. 1° is significant and 2° is the difference between good setup and awful setup, even on longer clubs where the effect on aim is much less than with wedges.

[J13]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1325654512' post='4025931']
I've spent a lot of time recently hitting marked balls (they leave a line on the face that points in various directions depending on lie angles) and trying different lengths and lie angles. What I found was not only direction is influenced but so is the quality of the strike. For example irons that are too flat tend to set me up with a bit of a reach at address and toe shots are more common. Granted I can adjust but hving the proper lie angle just makes it a bit more easier. IMO it's worth having the correct lie to help improve misses.
[/quote]

What are you marking the balls with? I've used washboard markers in the past.

[TCMP]

Kgeorge78 I think that it makes a difference for guys like you and me because when we do hit it fat or ground first it doesn't close or open the club face and mess up the direction of the shot (along with the distance due to shot being fat). I try to minimize my misses as best as I can with the right specs.

[Nick West]

[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325651991' post='4025769']
Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.
[/quote]

I'm not really understanding the science behind this. As best as I can figure, lie angle doesn't affect the face angle at all, which in turn, isn't going to affect the shot dispersion.
The only way I can see the lie affecting the shot dispersion is as a result of the clubs' grooves being at an angle which might result in side spin, although to what degree, I'm not certain.

Also, the clubs in the above illustration were more like 4 degrees off in either direction. If someone were hitting their clubs that poorly, I'd really be concerned about the length and the player's swing, before I would be concerned about the lie.

Could someone explain this?

[zripp3]

I *used* to play with a 60* lie angle (6i) on Mizuno clubs and went through an iron fitting a couple months ago. The Hot Stix fitter said that this was about 1* too flat and causing the toe to bury at impact and leading to a pull - my subconscious compensation for that would be to hang back and come OTT. I've since adjusted them back to 61* and am working on some fundamentals but it does seem to make a difference for me.

[CheckJV]

[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325687822' post='4026747']
[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325651991' post='4025769']
Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.
[/quote]

I'm not really understanding the science behind this. As best as I can figure, lie angle doesn't affect the face angle at all, which in turn, isn't going to affect the shot dispersion.
The only way I can see the lie affecting the shot dispersion is as a result of the clubs' grooves being at an angle which might result in side spin, although to what degree, I'm not certain.

Also, the clubs in the above illustration were more like 4 degrees off in either direction. If someone were hitting their clubs that poorly, I'd really be concerned about the length and the player's swing, before I would be concerned about the lie.

Could someone explain this?
[/quote]

[size="4"]Think of it as the ball above your feet or below your feet, same concept. The ball will be hit to the left or right of the target as the lie angle changes. It is even more pronounced as the loft changes from low lofted to higher lofted clubs.[/size]

[EchtLoon]

[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325687822' post='4026747']
[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325651991' post='4025769']
Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.
[/quote]

I'm not really understanding the science behind this. As best as I can figure, lie angle doesn't affect the face angle at all, which in turn, isn't going to affect the shot dispersion.
The only way I can see the lie affecting the shot dispersion is as a result of the clubs' grooves being at an angle which might result in side spin, although to what degree, I'm not certain.

[b]Also, the clubs in the above illustration were more like 4 degrees off in either direction[/b]. If someone were hitting their clubs that poorly, I'd really be concerned about the length and the player's swing, before I would be concerned about the lie.

Could someone explain this?
[/quote]
It's an extreme exageration to illustrate the point.

[finalist]

[quote name='J13' timestamp='1325683136' post='4026501']
[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1325654512' post='4025931']
I've spent a lot of time recently hitting marked balls (they leave a line on the face that points in various directions depending on lie angles) and trying different lengths and lie angles. What I found was not only direction is influenced but so is the quality of the strike. For example irons that are too flat tend to set me up with a bit of a reach at address and toe shots are more common. Granted I can adjust but hving the proper lie angle just makes it a bit more easier. IMO it's worth having the correct lie to help improve misses.
[/quote]

What are you marking the balls with? I've used washboard markers in the past.
[/quote]

I just use a sharpie and trace over the stripes on the range balls. Take a good second to line up the ball with the mark either vertically or horizontally aligned on the mat. After you hit the ball there will be a transferred mark onto your club face. It wipes off easily. My irons are two degrees flat, and I noticed I favored the toe side and the line always tilted towards me needing more upright lie angles. I confirmed it with a traditional lie board and sole tape. I then tried irons that were bent upright by 2 degrees (a total of 4 degrees difference for me) and my strikes now favored the heel side.

There is a thread here discussing how to measure lie angles and this method was mentioned. It works great and is easy to do.

[Awalkspoiled]

[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325687822' post='4026747']
[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325651991' post='4025769']
Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.
[/quote]

I'm not really understanding the science behind this. As best as I can figure, lie angle doesn't affect the face angle at all, which in turn, isn't going to affect the shot dispersion.
The only way I can see the lie affecting the shot dispersion is as a result of the clubs' grooves being at an angle which might result in side spin, although to what degree, I'm not certain.

Also, the clubs in the above illustration were more like 4 degrees off in either direction. If someone were hitting their clubs that poorly, I'd really be concerned about the length and the player's swing, before I would be concerned about the lie.

Could someone explain this?
[/quote]

Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.

[TKing]

Once you are making consistent contact at the right spot on the clubface, and the ball is pretty consistent in direction, it becomes VERY important. Until you get to that point, there are other more important things to work on. It would be good to have it right to start with, but work on contact first. If a half a degree too upright on an 8 iron drops them on the left fringe consistently, then is a good time to play with lie angle.

[bub72ck]

I personally think lie angle is one of the most important things to consider for a proper fit. The interaction of the club with the turf, the ability to square the face and put the sweetspot behind the ball, and reducing the severity of a mis-hit are all affected by the lie angle of the club. It may sound stupid but I won't even try an iron that isn't the proper lie angle for me (2* up). I would almost put it above shaft flex as far as importance for myself.

Earlier this year I bought my wife a new set of Taylormade TP CBs for her birthday. She was making the move from steel shafts (Ping I3 Blades) to graphite in the TMs so we were expecting to see some distance gains. As she hit balls I noticed they all sounded really clicky and nasty which is not like her at all (she's a 2 handicap) and she was shanking every fourth or fifth ball. The clubs were consistently 10 yards shorter than her Pings. After hitting a few balls I told her I thought the lie angle was off. We took them to our club guy and sure enough all the clubs were standard. After bending the irons to the proper angle her shots were solid and off the center of the face and she picked up about 10 yards per club (that's a 20 yard difference).

[Nick West]

[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1325696739' post='4027407']Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.
[/quote]


Thanks, awalkspoiled! That description definately helps.

Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.

So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?

[anth]

Not sure about the math, but you haven't taken into account the effect of sidespin on the ball, caused by the upright or flat lie angle, which will also influence the shot.

[CaddiesFault]

i would base it off of your normal ball flight. if you have a tendency to hook the ball you might want to flatten it a little, as you will get more toe interaction with the turf. if your darth fader, you might want to make it a little more upright.

for instance:
i tend to hit my short irons fairly straight and long with a little draw. when i flatten the angle of my irons, i tend to push my shots a little more while creating a little less hookspin.


here is an excerpt from golf.about.com

The "lie angle" of any clubhead is the angle between the center of the shaft and the sole. The lie angle of irons needs to be properly fit for each golfer for two major reasons. First, the lie angle is a factor that affects the accuracy of the shot. The lie angle is considered to be perfect for the golfer when the sole arrives at impact perfectly parallel to the ground.

If the lie angle is incorrect for the golfer, such that the toe of the clubhead is tilted well up in relation to the heel, the face is automatically pointing to the hook side of the target line. Conversely, if the clubhead arrives at impact tilted with the heel well up compared to the toe, the face of the clubhead is pointing to the slice side of the target line.


hope this helps

[RJRJRJ]

[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325716117' post='4029071']
[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1325696739' post='4027407']Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.
[/quote]


Thanks, awalkspoiled! That description definately helps.

Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.

So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?
[/quote]

Interesting video with good visuals:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wBNCM_-zxA

[Nick West]

[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325723917' post='4029689']
Not sure about the math, but you haven't taken into account the effect of sidespin on the ball, caused by the upright or flat lie angle, which will also influence the shot.
[/quote]




Good point. How much will changing the lie (up or down) by 1 degree, affect the side spin?

[mosesgolf]

[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325716117' post='4029071']
[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1325696739' post='4027407']Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.
[/quote]


Thanks, awalkspoiled! That description definately helps.

Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.

So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?
[/quote]

But that's not exactly how it works thought. When you have a club that is too upright, the heel hits the turf and will thus close the face at impact and if the lie is flat, the toe hits the turf and opens the face. So you're shots will be off way way than what you are figuring.

Whenever I play a club that is too upright, I hit all kinds of pulls and snap hooks. I had a set of 690CB's and a set of 690.MB's. The dot MB's are about 2* more upright than the previous non dots. Guess which ones hit pulls and hooks? I need to get the lie angles bent flat. It makes a HUGE difference.

As far as the video goes 5* to 7* upright doesn't seem possible and he kind of lost me when he started saying that stuff. Does Pink even have 7* upright option?

[DallasSteve]

[color=#1C2837][size=2]"Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.[/size][/color]<br style="color: rgb(28, 40, 55); font-size: 13px; line-height: 19px; background-color: rgb(250, 251, 252); ">[color=#1C2837][size=2]So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?"[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]
[/size][/color]
[color=#1C2837][size=2]Your math is clearly off, Nick West. If your lie angle is 90 degrees too upright as mentioned in a previous explanation, you would hit the ball at least 31 degrees left (assuming you could hit it at all and that your 6 iron has 31 degrees of loft; imagine that the ball is stuck to the wall at shoulder height and you have to hit it from there). According to your calculations, that would be 60 of those 1.5 degree increments, so 60 X .585" = 35.1". Your math says you would only hit it 1 yard left of the target. I don't think so.[/size][/color]

[mac94]

[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1325742699' post='4031319']
[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325716117' post='4029071']
[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1325696739' post='4027407']Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.
[/quote]


Thanks, awalkspoiled! That description definately helps.

Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.

So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?
[/quote]

But that's not exactly how it works thought. When you have a club that is too upright, the heel hits the turf and will thus close the face at impact and if the lie is flat, the toe hits the turf and opens the face. So you're shots will be off way way than what you are figuring.

Whenever I play a club that is too upright, I hit all kinds of pulls and snap hooks. I had a set of 690CB's and a set of 690.MB's. The dot MB's are about 2* more upright than the previous non dots. Guess which ones hit pulls and hooks? I need to get the lie angles bent flat. It makes a HUGE difference.

As far as the video goes 5* to 7* upright doesn't seem possible and he kind of lost me when he started saying that stuff. Does Pink even have 7* upright option?
[/quote]

This is one of the biggest myths in golf and it shows up on wrx all the time. It has nothing to do with turn interaction or the toe hitting first and therefore opening the face. The ball is gone from the face before it interacts with the turf. A too flat lie angle AUTOMATICALLY points the face of the club right even though it is square to the target line.

[nbg352]

Personally, I have every iron in the bag bent to 58* lie
No more big pulls and every club feels like it sets up exactly the same, regardless of length.
This setup may seem weird, but it suits me to a tee.

[finalist]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1325801211' post='4034109']
Personally, I have every iron in the bag bent to 58* lie
No more big pulls and every club feels like it sets up exactly the same, regardless of length.
This setup may seem weird, but it suits me to a tee.
[/quote]

That is unusual. So you have a different posture or your arms hang differently for every iron?

[nbg352]

[quote name='mac94' timestamp='1325793429' post='4033531']
[quote name='mosesgolf' timestamp='1325742699' post='4031319']
[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325716117' post='4029071']
[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1325696739' post='4027407']Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.
[/quote]


Thanks, awalkspoiled! That description definately helps.

Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.

So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?
[/quote]

But that's not exactly how it works thought. When you have a club that is too upright, the heel hits the turf and will thus close the face at impact and if the lie is flat, the toe hits the turf and opens the face. So you're shots will be off way way than what you are figuring.

Whenever I play a club that is too upright, I hit all kinds of pulls and snap hooks. I had a set of 690CB's and a set of 690.MB's. The dot MB's are about 2* more upright than the previous non dots. Guess which ones hit pulls and hooks? I need to get the lie angles bent flat. It makes a HUGE difference.

As far as the video goes 5* to 7* upright doesn't seem possible and he kind of lost me when he started saying that stuff. Does Pink even have 7* upright option?
[/quote]

This is one of the biggest myths in golf and it shows up on wrx all the time. It has nothing to do with turn interaction or the toe hitting first and therefore opening the face. The ball is gone from the face before it interacts with the turf. A too flat lie angle AUTOMATICALLY points the face of the club right even though it is square to the target line.
[/quote]

the myth is perpetrated through the use of impact tape on the sole and a strike board.
Because we measure the amount the lie needs to be adjusted from the impact point on the sole, it is assumed that it is turf interaction on the course that causes the errant shot direction.