Lie Angle Question - 1 or 2 deg - Does it matter???

[nbg352]

[quote name='finalist' timestamp='1325801751' post='4034159']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1325801211' post='4034109']
Personally, I have every iron in the bag bent to 58* lie
No more big pulls and every club feels like it sets up exactly the same, regardless of length.
This setup may seem weird, but it suits me to a tee.
[/quote]

That is unusual. So you have a different posture or your arms hang differently for every iron?
[/quote]


No actually I don't. If I set up with a 4 iron and you take it out of my hand and give me a wedge, my position will not have changed. Only my distance to the ball.

[nitram]

There's an old saying in the fitting world and that is: "the toe board doesn't lie". Take it for what you will but it's been an excellent adjustment/fitting tool for me and my pupils for the past 20 years.

[MichMan123]

I understand that it is important for sure. Im just not sure it's "that" important for a 6 HC like myself who can't repeat the same swing if my life depended on it.

[anth]

I'm not a fitting expert but during my fitting the lie angle remained consistent even though my swings were not. I'm also a 6 HC.

[nitram]

[quote name='kgeorge78' timestamp='1325803907' post='4034299']
I understand that it is important for sure. Im just not sure it's "that" important for a 6 HC like myself who can't repeat the same swing if my life depended on it.
[/quote]


Let me offer this; if you're a "true 6" (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), you are striking the ball more consistently than you credit yourself. As a 6, you regularly shoot in the mid to upper 70's and as such, places you in the top 10% of golfers in the world.

Do yourself a favor and find a day when you are (in your opinion) swinging it pretty good. Take the toe board and tape (masking tape will work)and start with your PW. Take 4 or 5 measured swings with each club and you will notice a discernible pattern. What I see in most folks is they will take a 9, 6, and 4 iron and hit the toe board. From those clubs they make a decision to make all of their irons and wedges, X amount up or flat. Measure EACH club and bend until your impact is in the center of the sole. Not all clubs are made the same. My current set has the PW, 5 & 6 iron @ 4* Flat while the 9 is 3* Flat, 4, 7, & 8 are 2* Flat, and the 3 is 1* Flat. For the set before this one, you might as well throw the club numbers in a hat and draw again as the PW was the flattest while the others measured more upright to the 8-iron measuring Std.

Just give it a try.

[Vegaman]

[quote name='kgeorge78' timestamp='1325650570' post='4025665']
After getting fit 3 times I know my 6 iron lie angle should be 61 deg (Mizuno standard), maybe 61.5...

Question though - I don't have a repeatable swing to be honest. Am I really coming down on the ball at the same angle time and time again?? Does 1 or 2 deg make that much of a difference?

Also on the course you never really have a perfectly flat lie anyways. I'm sure the ground is not perfectly flat and 1 or 2 deg shouldn't make a difference.

When swinging well the club should hit the ball before the ground anyways so why does it matter??


Can some experienced club guys answer this?
[/quote]

I'm starting tho think it's hugely overrated. I've been fitted many times, the last time I did I got irons with a very upright lie, +3 actually, with a one inch over standard shaft. Recently I bought a set of blades, and before adjusting them lie wise I took them out for a few rounds, the shafts I put in the blades are also only half an inch over standard, so that will in effect flatten the lie too. Since my old shafts where one inch over, and the heads were bent 3 degrees upright, I used to have a VERY upright set, since the longer shafts add to the lie when you play.

Results? Hit the blades very well, no problem with being too flat or anything. I inspected the tee box on a few courses in the last couple of weeks. Even the tee-boxes are far from flat. Much less so once you hit the ball out on the course, you will more or less NEVER have a flat lie out on the course. Now, if you only ever hit balls on the range, or is a huge range "rat" lie might make a difference and you might notice it, but otherwise...Probably not.

[nbg352]

[quote name='nitram' timestamp='1325811539' post='4034785']
[quote name='kgeorge78' timestamp='1325803907' post='4034299']
I understand that it is important for sure. Im just not sure it's "that" important for a 6 HC like myself who can't repeat the same swing if my life depended on it.
[/quote]


Let me offer this; if you're a "true 6" (and I have no reason to believe otherwise), you are striking the ball more consistently than you credit yourself. As a 6, you regularly shoot in the mid to upper 70's and as such, places you in the top 10% of golfers in the world.

Do yourself a favor and find a day when you are (in your opinion) swinging it pretty good. Take the toe board and tape (masking tape will work)and start with your PW. Take 4 or 5 measured swings with each club and you will notice a discernible pattern. What I see in most folks is they will take a 9, 6, and 4 iron and hit the toe board. From those clubs they make a decision to make all of their irons and wedges, X amount up or flat. Measure EACH club and bend until your impact is in the center of the sole. Not all clubs are made the same. My current set has the PW, 5 & 6 iron @ 4* Flat while the 9 is 3* Flat, 4, 7, & 8 are 2* Flat, and the 3 is 1* Flat. For the set before this one, you might as well throw the club numbers in a hat and draw again as the PW was the flattest while the others measured more upright to the 8-iron measuring Std.

Just give it a try.
[/quote]

What you suggest is the way I checked and changed my lies. It wasn't until I had my lies perfect that I realized that every iron was now at 58*
I had also had a set done many years ago by a local clubmaker who checked my lies with a business card while I was in the setup position.
Anyway, because I thought it strange that every iron in my bag was 58*, I decided to check my old apex irons. And guess what...Yep...every one between 58 - 59*
Is that weird or what?
And it works!

[TLT_Dan]

Many players have the ability to adjust their address position to accomodate their club - resulting in decent play.

The way I always view it is - I want to be in my strongest athletic address position for every club, allowing the correct length and lie to keep me there. This way I can drive consistency into a players game which does result in improvement.

 

Correct length and lie is paramount for directional control, while allowing you to remain in a best posture. The picture supplied on page 1 says it all. So if you have a toe up condition in say your 7 iron and a toe down condition on your 8 iron, your directional control will suffer.

 

Have the clubs fit you , not you fit to the clubs.

 

[mac94]

[quote name='kgeorge78' timestamp='1325803907' post='4034299']
I understand that it is important for sure. Im just not sure it's "that" important for a 6 HC like myself who can't repeat the same swing if my life depended on it.
[/quote]

It's still pretty important. You'd be surprised how consistent you swing actually is on a lie board.

[justyd401]

On my last iron fitting I went from 1 degree up to 2 flat and was hitting more in the center of the face. From more center/heel before.

[Dave70]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1325732148' post='4030551']
[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325716117' post='4029071']
[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1325696739' post='4027407']Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.
[/quote]


Thanks, awalkspoiled! That description definately helps.

Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.

So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?
[/quote]

Interesting video with good visuals:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wBNCM_-zxA[/media]
[/quote]

interesting we get told that mizuno can only be bent 3 degrees max

he just bent an mp 57 by 5 degrees.......?

Hmm about to pull the trigger on a set of JPX pro 825's and yes my miss is sometimes right so thinking going 2 degrees upright, Im cutsom ordering from the USA so I dont have access to club fitter here

that said I lie board painted black shouldnt be too hard to make - made from perspex then paint then masking tape and away I go

good video

[rhh7]

I am a heretic, or an agnostic. I do not believe in dynamic fitting for lie angles. Most modern OEM clubs are at least 2 degrees too upright for the average golfer, IMO.

[ronsc1985]

A little basic trignometry may be in order here.

Take any club at it's proper lie angle and rotate the shaft such that is is laying on the ground. The face is now pointing off line by exactly the loft angle. Using this you can compute the effect of being slightly off in lie angle.

Take a "'normal" 6 iron with a loft of 31 degrees and a lie of 60 degrees. If you are off in lie angle by 2 degrees then the face will be pointed off line by 2/60 x 31 = 1.03 degrees. For a shot of say 160 yards this results in the ball being off line by
160 x sine (1.03) = 2.87 yards. You may also get some additional off line deviation from the spin put on the ball due to the mismatch between the face angle and the swing path direction. This amount depend on the angular difference and your clubhead speed and quality of contact.

Is this a big deal? Not so much if you simply modify your setup slightly to accomidate the lie differential. If all your irons and woods are off by the same amount it is a mostly trival adjustment. Actually for your driver and other low lofted clubs it makes very little difference if the lie angle is off by small amounts.

Anyone with some high school math skills should be able to use the above to compute how much each club is off from perfect for his particular lie differential and distance with each club.

[Dave70]

2 degrees upright has don wonders for me

just saying

[5hort5tuff]

I'm 5'4 and struggled hitting consistently until i discovered club adjustments. Ping bent me down to Orange Dot...huge difference.

[nick.woods76]

1 DEG means nothing for me. @ 2 deg I can see it affecting the shot shape a bit but even that is more swing / position than anything else

[rengler22]

[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325651991' post='4025769']
Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.
[/quote]

Picture 3 (Hitting on the toe) - What would the shot look like for this? Is this club too upright or too flat? My clubs are showing this impact on the impact tape I've been hitting, and I've been hitting a fade on shots where I felt like I took a good swing, so I'm wondering if they are related. However, it's very possible that even my good swings are not very good!

[TLT_Dan]

[quote name='rengler22' timestamp='1364849522' post='6739037']
[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325651991' post='4025769']
Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.
[/quote]

Picture 3 (Hitting on the toe) - What would the shot look like for this? Is this club too upright or too flat? My clubs are showing this impact on the impact tape I've been hitting, and I've been hitting a fade on shots where I felt like I took a good swing, so I'm wondering if they are related. However, it's very possible that even my good swings are not very good!
[/quote]

Picture 3 is a club that is too flat - and the ball will start out as pictured - heading to the right a few degrees.
This club needs to uprighted a few degree - so it ends up looking like picture 2.

Keep in mind that these illustrations are 'at impact' , where in the dynamics of the swing the center of gravity pulls the toe down, so you do want a few degrees upright at address.

[rengler22]

TLT Dan, thank you for your help in this thread and the one about shortening my G20s. I appreciate it.

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='nitram' timestamp='1325803603' post='4034273']
There's an old saying in the fitting world and that is: "the toe board doesn't lie". Take it for what you will but it's been an excellent adjustment/fitting tool for me and my pupils for the past 20 years.
[/quote]

The lie board can and does lie.

The lie board assumes that the face is square at impact, which is not true at all.

If the face is closed at impact but the toe is down, the latter counters the closed face and a straight shot is possible.

If the face is open at impact but the toe is up, the latter counters the open face and a straight shot is possible.

If you use the lie board exclusively, you can be misled.

Ball flight, ball flight, ball flight - doesn't lie. Lie boards can lie.

[wrmiller]

And then you have weird players like me. True story:

Bought three Titleist wedges at the local BB store and requested that they be extended .5" and bent 3* upright. Came back, picked up my clubs and immediately went to the range to try them out. Gap wedge was perfect, lob wedge was perfect, but couldn't get comfortable with the SW. Felt wrong, and I can't describe it any better than that.

Took them back to my friend and asked him to check them for lie angle, telling him the SW "just doesn't work right". He checked all three, gave me a really weird look, and checked them again. He came over and asked me to describe what was wrong and all I could tell him was that it didn't feel right at impact. He stared at me for about 5 seconds and said "I hate people like you". When I asked him what he meant, he told me that the gap and lob were dead on, but the SW was a degree too flat (only two deg up).

Seriously?

He bent it, I took all three to the range and they worked perfectly.

I don't have a fixed stance, ball position, or even grip. I set up to the ball thinking of the shot shape I'm trying to hit and fidget around until it feels right. Fairly good at it too.

[kloyd0306]

[quote name='RJRJRJ' timestamp='1325732148' post='4030551']
[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1325716117' post='4029071']
[quote name='Awalkspoiled' timestamp='1325696739' post='4027407']Sure. The effect is more pronounced with higher lofted clubs. Take your SW and lean it back towards you so that the toe is way up in the air. This simulates a club which has been bent too upright. Notice that the clubface, which had been aiming at the sky at a 56° angle, is now aiming to the left as well. In effect you've lowered the loft slightly and shut the face, and you'll get a pull. Lie the club all the way flat and you'll have zero loft and a 56° shut face - obviously that's far more extreme, but even a small increment has a distinct effect on effective aim.
[/quote]


Thanks, awalkspoiled! That description definately helps.

Now by my math, which is admitedly pretty darned shaky, I'm figuring that difference for a 6 iron being; For every 1.5 degree you bend the lie in either direction, you will affect the shot dispersion at .5 degrees....which would equate to about a .585" difference off-line at 150 yards.

So, for every 1.5 degrees your club is flat/upright on a 6 iron, you'll be hitting it 6 inches to the right/left at 150 yards! Does that sound about right?
[/quote]

Interesting video with good visuals:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wBNCM_-zxA[/media]
[/quote]

It is quite sad that this video is available on You Tube.

Bending irons more than two degrees is a clear indication that the golfer needs a longer length shaft. Bending so upright is totally destructive for the wedges and short irons.

Most wedges are designed with 64 degrees lie angles. If you paid any attention to this video, your wedge lie angles would be 69 degrees. Outrageous.

[rhh7]

Just my opinion, but the vast majority of golfers would do better with wedges at 62 degrees, rather than 66 degrees.

[MizunoLaxer40]

I was fit at golf galaxy for 2* upright off a lie board, but my missed tend to be left. maybe i don't know what I'm talking about, but wouldn't more upright cause more of a draw/left shot? help would be appreciated!

[mikpga]

http://youtu.be/peoc7294LMM

[oldschoolrocker]

It's hard to do any productive work when the tools don't fit. One size does not fit all. Length and lie angle are easy and cheap to change, and pay huge dividends when they are correct for you.

[PixlPutterman]

[quote name='mcarrejola' timestamp='1364789320' post='6734557']
I'm 5'4 and struggled hitting consistently until i discovered club adjustments. Ping bent me down to Orange Dot...huge difference.
[/quote]
Please tell me you dont play standard length

[PixlPutterman]

[quote name='rengler22' timestamp='1364849522' post='6739037']
[quote name='anth' timestamp='1325651991' post='4025769']
Lie angle is not about the sole of the club interacting with the ground. It's about the angle of the face at impact.

A good representation of this can be found in the attached picture.

1 or 2 degrees might not seem like much but the lie angle will determine the initial direction of the ball just after impact. You need to think about how much that will effect the shot 150 yards away.

In my limited experience golfers do consistently swing at the same angle. It'as actually hard to change it without completely changing your swing.
[/quote]

Picture 3 (Hitting on the toe) - What would the shot look like for this? Is this club too upright or too flat? My clubs are showing this impact on the impact tape I've been hitting, and I've been hitting a fade on shots where I felt like I took a good swing, so I'm wondering if they are related. However, it's very possible that even my good swings are not very good!
[/quote]
The ball is hitting the toe or the toe/sole is hitting the lie board, the first has more to do with posture or correct club length, the second would produce a pushed ball

[PixlPutterman]

[quote name='kloyd0306' timestamp='1364869013' post='6741185']
[quote name='nitram' timestamp='1325803603' post='4034273']
There's an old saying in the fitting world and that is: "the toe board doesn't lie". Take it for what you will but it's been an excellent adjustment/fitting tool for me and my pupils for the past 20 years.
[/quote]

The lie board can and does lie.

The lie board assumes that the face is square at impact, which is not true at all.

If the face is closed at impact but the toe is down, the latter counters the closed face and a straight shot is possible.

If the face is open at impact but the toe is up, the latter counters the open face and a straight shot is possible.

If you use the lie board exclusively, you can be misled.

Ball flight, ball flight, ball flight - doesn't lie. Lie boards can lie.
[/quote]Thats why you hit outside and dont count pulled or hooked shots

[Rebel420]

With the back issues that I have, my posture and mobility are limited, and as such, I find myself more sensitive to swing weight, length and lie angle. If everything is not in line, I can't keep a smooth on plane swing with a decent tempo. I can also tell after a few shots if something is not right or is correct by how bad my back bothers me. The funny thing though is how my back issues really mess up club fitters and conventional wisdom. I hook shots? Make lie angle more upright. I slice shots? Need a flatter lie angle. Balls tend to fade to the right? Give me a stiffer shaft.