Hit a draw with neutral/weak grip

[masegolf1978]

Is it possible?

So I had a lesson about two months ago. Had a VERY strong grip where I would pick the club up fairly quickly and then drop it in the slot and hit a draw. When things went wrong, turned into a smother hook.

My pro fixed the grip (which felt really unnatural) but I knew that going in and was committed to it. The "new" grip was neutral, but I tended to cheat a bit and strengthened it slightly. Moreover, he got rid of the pick up and really had me one-plane and very flat. Started out hitting big slices, then gradually fades with a few straight shots. Again, I knew this going in.

I worked pretty hard on the swing change, playing between 2 and 5 times a week and hitting balls after. (Looking for a job in the morning and golf in the afternoon). I did get somewhat more consistent in that I hit the ball so short it was hard to hit THAT bad a shot. Also, everything was a fade (with a few straight shots mixed in). Could not turn the ball over to save my life.

Anyway, with that long preface, I played today and went back to the "old" swing and "old" grip. Turned it over with ease, felt like I was really compressing the ball with driver again, distance came back immediately. Also hit a few pull hooks!

Now I know two months is not long to give such a dramatic swing/grip change, but I guess my question is, can I hit a draw with a neutral grip? I would add the "old" swing is very in to out, and the pro had me going very inside and then almost (at least it felt like) coming over the top. Also, my driving with the "new" swing is awful, whereas it used to be a strength. Do you change your grip when you hit driver? Change the swing path? Change your grip to hit a draw?

Kind of pathetic since I've been playing for 20 years (I'm 33), but I've found myself getting much more into swing mechanics instead of just playing. Wish I hadn't, but what's done is done. Any advice?

[DoctorLoomis]

Club face rotation has absolutely positively nothing to do with curving a golf ball. Further, if you desire to hit a draw that starts its flight to the right of the target and curves toward the target....an OPEN club face to the target is a must. Thinking in these terms will solve your grip questions.

[masegolf1978]

Really?! So is it swing path? Meaning inside out? Or is it a number of things? I honestly have not idea, which again, is somewhat embarrassing given how long i've been playing.

Thanks for your reply.

[Judge440]

You can hit a draw with a neutral grip.

[DoctorLoomis]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1331957198' post='4523365']
Really?! [b][u]So is it swing path? Meaning inside out?[/u][/b] Or is it a number of things? I honestly have not idea, which again, is somewhat embarrassing given how long i've been playing.

Thanks for your reply.
[/quote]

Yes. The club face, as I previously mentioned, MUST be aimed open to the target line in order to start the ball to the right. The path MUST be slightly more to the right than the face in order to curve the ball back toward the target. This has absolutely nothing to do with club face rotation. Consider this....a few days ago a prominent PGA Tour player was hitting drivers on my Trackman. His path was consistently 7* to the right. That means that if his clubface is anywhere from 2-5* OPEN he will hit towering high draws. Very simple when you look at it from this viewpoint.

[Aithos]

You can absolutely hit a draw with a neutral grip, you're just more likely to do it with a strong grip because it makes you want to close the face down through impact. I've been swinging Outside-In lately and it's been causing big hooks with my driver and really inconsistent hits with my irons. A guy at my local dicks pointed it out when I was testing a club and helped me get the feel of going more Inside-Out and immediately I picked up a ton of distance and started hitting straight on the launch monitor. I just came back to the game after a really long layoff and it's like I'm completely relearning how to hit again, very frustrating.

I definitely have different swings for my irons/driver. I'm trying to work on it so they are closer, but I haven't played enough again this year to really get it figured out. I'd take some video of you swinging both ways and see if you can identify a middle ground where you get your power while still hitting the shot shape you want. If you don't feel like you're clicking with this teacher you could always try to find a new one too, everyone teaches differently...

[DoctorLoomis]

[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1331959558' post='4523515']
You can absolutely hit a draw with a neutral grip, you're just more likely to do it with a strong grip because it makes you want to [b][u]close the face down through impact[/u][/b]. I've been swinging Outside-In lately and it's been causing big hooks with my driver and really inconsistent hits with my irons. A guy at my local dicks pointed it out when I was testing a club and helped me get the feel of going more Inside-Out and immediately I picked up a ton of distance and started hitting straight on the launch monitor. I just came back to the game after a really long layoff and it's like I'm completely relearning how to hit again, very frustrating.

I definitely have different swings for my irons/driver. I'm trying to work on it so they are closer, but I haven't played enough again this year to really get it figured out. I'd take some video of you swinging both ways and see if you can identify a middle ground where you get your power while still hitting the shot shape you want. If you don't feel like you're clicking with this teacher you could always try to find a new one too, everyone teaches differently...


[/quote]


Aithos....just curious why you would ever want to "close the face down" to hit a draw? The face MUST be aimed to the right of the target to hit a draw. Also, if you look at great strong grip players....Azinger, Couples, Duval, Trevino, etc....they all played a cut as their standard shot.

[Aithos]

[quote name='DoctorLoomis' timestamp='1331960586' post='4523585']
[quote name='Aithos' timestamp='1331959558' post='4523515']
You can absolutely hit a draw with a neutral grip, you're just more likely to do it with a strong grip because it makes you want to [b][u]close the face down through impact[/u][/b]. I've been swinging Outside-In lately and it's been causing big hooks with my driver and really inconsistent hits with my irons. A guy at my local dicks pointed it out when I was testing a club and helped me get the feel of going more Inside-Out and immediately I picked up a ton of distance and started hitting straight on the launch monitor. I just came back to the game after a really long layoff and it's like I'm completely relearning how to hit again, very frustrating.

I definitely have different swings for my irons/driver. I'm trying to work on it so they are closer, but I haven't played enough again this year to really get it figured out. I'd take some video of you swinging both ways and see if you can identify a middle ground where you get your power while still hitting the shot shape you want. If you don't feel like you're clicking with this teacher you could always try to find a new one too, everyone teaches differently...


[/quote]


Aithos....just curious why you would ever want to "close the face down" to hit a draw? The face MUST be aimed to the right of the target to hit a draw. Also, if you look at great strong grip players....Azinger, Couples, Duval, Trevino, etc....they all played a cut as their standard shot.
[/quote]

I wasn't saying you'd want to, I was saying that is part of the reason the strong grip causes you to hit one. If you grip a club too strongly the tendency from what I understand is to turn the hands over more and close the face at impact (which will hook and not give you a draw like you want). I was never implying you would ever want to do that.

Edit: I guess I did word that poorly, I meant to say hook not draw. Obviously we don't want to be hitting giant duck hooks out there

[masegolf1978]

Yeah, I think my problem is that I don't really release my hands. So, I compensate by starting with the club face really closed to I don't have to release them to close it. Thus, when I release the club now, the pull hook comes out. I've always been scared of casting/flipping the club, so I guess that's why I don't release.

Still, I must say, with a neutral grip, it still seems counter intuitive to swing inside out to hit the draw. Is there a diagram or some sort of visualization out there. I remember seeing one in golfdigest a few months ago, but I remember thinking that swinging on the inside-out path would just push the ball right with the neutral grip, while the closed grip would produce the required spin to bring it back left.

[SafariThomas]

[quote name='DoctorLoomis' timestamp='1331958699' post='4523459']
[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1331957198' post='4523365']
Really?! [b][u]So is it swing path? Meaning inside out?[/u][/b] Or is it a number of things? I honestly have not idea, which again, is somewhat embarrassing given how long i've been playing.

Thanks for your reply.
[/quote]

Yes. The club face, as I previously mentioned, MUST be aimed open to the target line in order to start the ball to the right. [b]The path MUST be slightly more to the right than the face in order to curve the ball back toward the target[/b]. This has absolutely nothing to do with club face rotation. Consider this....a few days ago a prominent PGA Tour player was hitting drivers on my Trackman. His path was consistently 7* to the right. That means that if his clubface is anywhere from 2-5* OPEN he will hit towering high draws. Very simple when you look at it from this viewpoint.
[/quote]

1.Does this mean hitting to the right field?
2 What would be the ideal ball placement to achieve this ( how many balls forward of center)[color="#000000"] [/color][color=#000000][size=2][/size][/color]

[DoctorLoomis]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1331960845' post='4523601']
Yeah, I think my problem is that I don't really release my hands. So, I compensate by starting with the club face really closed to I don't have to release them to close it. Thus, when I release the club now, the pull hook comes out. I've always been scared of casting/flipping the club, so I guess that's why I don't release.

Still, I must say, with a neutral grip, it still seems counter intuitive to swing inside out to hit the draw. Is there a diagram or some sort of visualization out there. I remember seeing one in golfdigest a few months ago, but I remember thinking that [b][u]swinging on the inside-out path would just push the ball right with the neutral grip, while the closed grip would produce the required spin to bring it back left.
[/u][/b][/quote]


1. A swing path to the right has virtually nothing to do with the ball starting to the right. The initial direction is overwhelmingly club face...not path.
2. A "closed" face does nothing to curve the ball to the left. It simply projects the ball on an initial line to the left. You can hit a huge draw with a face that is 10* OPEN. All that needs to happen in this case is a swing path that is 15* or so OPEN as well.

3. You must get out of the idea that face rotation or face release curves the ball. It does not.

[DoctorLoomis]

[quote name='SafariThomas' timestamp='1331960846' post='4523603']
[quote name='DoctorLoomis' timestamp='1331958699' post='4523459']
[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1331957198' post='4523365']
Really?! [b][u]So is it swing path? Meaning inside out?[/u][/b] Or is it a number of things? I honestly have not idea, which again, is somewhat embarrassing given how long i've been playing.

Thanks for your reply.
[/quote]

Yes. The club face, as I previously mentioned, MUST be aimed open to the target line in order to start the ball to the right. [b]The path MUST be slightly more to the right than the face in order to curve the ball back toward the target[/b]. This has absolutely nothing to do with club face rotation. Consider this....a few days ago a prominent PGA Tour player was hitting drivers on my Trackman. His path was consistently 7* to the right. That means that if his clubface is anywhere from 2-5* OPEN he will hit towering high draws. Very simple when you look at it from this viewpoint.
[/quote]

[b][u]1.Does this mean hitting to the right field?
2 What would be the ideal ball placement to achieve this ( how many balls forward of center)[color="#000000"] [/color][color="#000000"] [/color]
[/u][/b][/quote]


1. For some people the FEELING of hitting to right field helps them acquire a more rightward path.
2. Ball position is hard to determine without knowing angle of attack. Once AoA is known, then ball position and baseline position can be better described.

[masegolf1978]

LIke what this guy is saying?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v0vsK-0Crc&feature=channel

My problem is, again, I guess I don't release the club enough to swing driver inside out and have it come back left.

Ugh...I'm hopeless.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1331961665' post='4523643']
LIke what this guy is saying?
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v0vsK-0Crc&feature=channel"]http://www.youtube.c...feature=channel[/url]

My problem is, again, I guess I don't release the club enough to swing driver inside out and have it come back left.

Ugh...I'm hopeless.
[/quote]

Not hopeless at all. You just need a perception change.

While I completely agree with everything Dr. Loomis said, I am going to say a few things that are over simplified and a little incomplete, but might help you understand it better.

Let's assume for a second that a slight push draw is created when the club face matches the path...and you visualizing a draw in your head creates that miniscule difference in face/path that creates the draw.

Now understand that release is a literal term...it means let go.

So now all you have to do is figure out how to create a swing path that is slightly to the right and a grip that makes the face match that path when you just let go.

[Finbarr Saunders]

Is Faldos description how to hit draw (without adding trees into the equation) correct and doesn't include compensations, but he might not explain it in enough detail for some people.

would i be correct in saying

If i was to set up to a shot with a mid iron and at address my hands were in a mid body position with my club face square to the pin and my body aligned to the pin, and then somehow managed to swing my club like a professional with hands forward, hitting down and the club bottoming out 4 inches in front of the ball, would the club be slightly more open than it was at address when it comes into contact with the ball (is this what they call hitting it on the back of the circle) producing a nice soft draw

[Finbarr Saunders]

[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1331984256' post='4524073']
Is Faldos description how to hit draw (without adding trees into the equation) correct and doesn't include compensations, but he might not explain it in enough detail for some people.

would i be correct in saying

If i was to set up to a shot with a mid iron and at address my hands were in a mid body position with my club face square to the pin and my body aligned to the pin, and then somehow managed to swing my club like a professional with hands forward, hitting down and the club bottoming out 4 inches in front of the ball, would the club be slightly more open than it was at address when it comes into contact with the ball (is this what they call hitting it on the back of the circle) producing a nice soft draw
[/quote]




I was hoping that one of the trackman or D plane guys could shed a little light on the subject

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1331954467' post='4523177']
So I had a lesson about two months ago. Had a VERY strong grip where I would pick the club up fairly quickly and then drop it in the slot and hit a draw. When things went wrong, turned into a smother hook.

My pro fixed the grip (which felt really unnatural) but I knew that going in and was committed to it. The "new" grip was neutral, but I tended to cheat a bit and strengthened it slightly. Moreover, he got rid of the pick up and really had me one-plane and very flat. Started out hitting big slices, then gradually fades with a few straight shots. Again, I knew this going in.

I worked pretty hard on the swing change, playing between 2 and 5 times a week and hitting balls after. (Looking for a job in the morning and golf in the afternoon). I did get somewhat more consistent in that I hit the ball so short it was hard to hit THAT bad a shot. Also, everything was a fade (with a few straight shots mixed in). Could not turn the ball over to save my life.

Anyway, with that long preface, I played today and went back to the "old" swing and "old" grip. Turned it over with ease, felt like I was really compressing the ball with driver again, distance came back immediately. Also hit a few pull hooks!

Now I know two months is not long to give such a dramatic swing/grip change, but I guess my question is, can I hit a draw with a neutral grip? I would add the "old" swing is very in to out, and the pro had me going very inside and then almost (at least it felt like) coming over the top. Also, my driving with the "new" swing is awful, whereas it used to be a strength. Do you change your grip when you hit driver? Change the swing path? Change your grip to hit a draw?

Kind of pathetic since I've been playing for 20 years (I'm 33), but I've found myself getting much more into swing mechanics instead of just playing. Wish I hadn't, but what's done is done. Any advice?
[/quote]

I hit with a neutral grip I hit a straight ball generally. Here is how I hit a draw:


1. Take your normal stance and set up to hit the ball straight.

2. Pull your right foot straight back about 4 inches.

3. Swing along your toe line.

The ball will draw....then adjust stance as necessary (pull your foot back more for a bigger draw, and less for less of a draw).

[18in2hours]

If I remember correctly-Jack Nicklaus said that when he was teaching his son to play the game, he had him hold the club with as weak of a grip as possible and try hitting draws with it. If you can do this-the thought was that your release was spot on.

[Cwing]

[quote name='DoctorLoomis' timestamp='1331955726' post='4523257']
Club face rotation has absolutely positively nothing to do with curving a golf ball. Further, if you desire to hit a draw that starts its flight to the right of the target and curves toward the target....an OPEN club face to the target is a must. Thinking in these terms will solve your grip questions.
[/quote]


With a inside out path and an open face, how does the ball draw and not go straight right?

[marrigo]

[quote name='Cwing' timestamp='1332033873' post='4527189']
[quote name='DoctorLoomis' timestamp='1331955726' post='4523257']
Club face rotation has absolutely positively nothing to do with curving a golf ball. Further, if you desire to hit a draw that starts its flight to the right of the target and curves toward the target....an OPEN club face to the target is a must. Thinking in these terms will solve your grip questions.
[/quote]


With a inside out path and an open face, how does the ball draw and not go straight right?
[/quote]

Open to what? Open to path= push slice. Open to target but closed to path=draw.

[masegolf1978]

[quote name='18in2hours' timestamp='1332032596' post='4527057']
If I remember correctly-Jack Nicklaus said that when he was teaching his son to play the game, he had him hold the club with as weak of a grip as possible and try hitting draws with it. If you can do this-the thought was that your release was spot on.
[/quote]

Tried this tonight, along with a more closed stance. It seems like a good drill and really makes you release the club. If you don't, you do what I've been doing, which is to hit a weak push slice.

Thanks again all for the replies. If anyone has any more good drills, I would love to hear them.

[Shaank0]

Here you go, someone posted this a while ago.

[attachment=1075559:Ball Flight Laws.jpg]

[masegolf1978]

[quote name='Shaank0' timestamp='1332038000' post='4527649']
Here you go, someone posted this a while ago.

[attachment=1075559:Ball Flight Laws.jpg]
[/quote]

Perfect!

So I'm definitely going for "G". But wouldn't a slightly stronger grip/closed club fact help me achieve this? Or would it just be a bandaid for a poor release? (I'm assuming the latter).

[masegolf1978]

Also, does this apply to irons and woods, given the different angles of attack?

[schlyer]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1332038818' post='4527733']
But wouldn't a slightly stronger grip/closed club fact help me achieve this?
[/quote]

It depends on what you mean. You have to be very careful when talking about a 'closed club' because closed relative to what makes all the difference.

With the same swing path out to the right:
Face Closed to path and open to target = draw.
Face Closed path and also closed to target = duck hook

A stronger grip will tend to help you rotate the face more left. Whether more left for you gets you a draw or a duck hook depends entirely on where you face is currently pointing and your path.

Always 2 components to hit a draw: path to the right of the target, face to the right of target but left of the path.

[Stretch]

Good stuff so far!

My advice would be don't get too hung up on your "release". As a couple of folks have already noted, you really don't want or need to be manipulating the clubface through impact in order to curve the ball.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdU6_tEAwbs[/media]

[Stretch]

[quote name='Finbarr Saunders' timestamp='1331984256' post='4524073']
If i was to set up to a shot with a mid iron and at address my hands were in a mid body position with my club face square to the pin and my body aligned to the pin, and then somehow managed to swing my club like a professional with hands forward, hitting down and the club bottoming out 4 inches in front of the ball, [b]would the club be slightly more open than it was at address when it comes into contact with the ball[/b] (is this what they call hitting it on the back of the circle) producing a nice soft draw
[/quote]
Generally speaking, I'd say yes. And, if it is, you will likely get a little draw with a "pro swing". PGA Tour average angle of attack with a 6 iron is 4 degrees down. Swinging [i]straight at the target[/i] with that length of club, the average pro is going to have a true path of about 2.5 degrees (right). So a club face that's open a degree or so will produce a nice shot.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1332038818' post='4527733']
[quote name='Shaank0' timestamp='1332038000' post='4527649']
Here you go, someone posted this a while ago.

[attachment=1075559:Ball Flight Laws.jpg]
[/quote]

Perfect!

So I'm definitely going for "G". But wouldn't a slightly stronger grip/closed club fact help me achieve this? Or would it just be a bandaid for a poor release? (I'm assuming the latter).
[/quote]




Not to be annoying....but reread my post.

If you want G.

Set up at your target - pull your right foot back...swing along your toe line....the ball will move right to left.

Make adjustments to fine tune it. (Change your aim...maybe you need to aim right or target; change amount you pull back your foot...you may need more or less movement).

Stop fidgeting with your hands.....IMO...simply b/c you want the same basic swing for all shots. Varying your path-vs-target line (as in G) you keep your same swing...you just move your feet. The same neutral swing can hit it 3 basic shots that essentially feel identical - straight, draw or fade (same process as above, but instead of the right foot...you pull your LEFT foot back).

It's a much simpler way to hit those shots, instead of 3 different grips or hand-actions.

[masegolf1978]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1332073121' post='4528875']
[quote name='masegolf1978' timestamp='1332038818' post='4527733']
[quote name='Shaank0' timestamp='1332038000' post='4527649']
Here you go, someone posted this a while ago.

[attachment=1075559:Ball Flight Laws.jpg]
[/quote]

Perfect!

So I'm definitely going for "G". But wouldn't a slightly stronger grip/closed club fact help me achieve this? Or would it just be a bandaid for a poor release? (I'm assuming the latter).
[/quote]




Not to be annoying....but reread my post.

If you want G.

Set up at your target - pull your right foot back...swing along your toe line....the ball will move right to left.

Make adjustments to fine tune it. (Change your aim...maybe you need to aim right or target; change amount you pull back your foot...you may need more or less movement).

Stop fidgeting with your hands.....IMO...simply b/c you want the same basic swing for all shots. Varying your path-vs-target line (as in G) you keep your same swing...you just move your feet. The same neutral swing can hit it 3 basic shots that essentially feel identical - straight, draw or fade (same process as above, but instead of the right foot...you pull your LEFT foot back).

It's a much simpler way to hit those shots, instead of 3 different grips or hand-actions.
[/quote]

I agree. I think the problem that led to all of my CURRENT problems was that i swung so inside/out that I started shanking the ball. That led to me closing the face but trying to swing more down the line and just aiming right of my target. THAT led to a poor release, because, of course, releasing a closed club face fully while swinging down the line would produce a smother hook.

Sufficed to say, I've got plenty to work on.

[ChipDriver]

Good luck to you.


I agree...when you try to hit it inside out you tend to get flatter and flatter...eventually you meet El Hozel.

Just use your normal "hit it straight" swing. The game is hard enough. To me, it's hard to change your club face; or your grip, or your angle of attack per se.

While swinging along your toet line does feel a little different, it's something I think that is easy enough to do, and you don't change much else. Same grip same face alignment - swing along your toe line and hit the ball...and it moves.

If you can hit it straight; you can make it draw or fade by just moving your feet. :-)