Sometimes I Really Hate This Game

[CosmosMpower]

I think on course instruction is absolutely necessary. I can hit the ball like a 2 HC and then walk straight onto the course and my course swing is about a 15 HC. I've puzzled various instructors when they watch me hit on the range and tell them I shoot in the low to mid 80's, they all say I should be in the 70's including a former 2 time winner on the PGA tour and Hank Haney.

[mikpga]

[quote name='CosmosMpower' timestamp='1337626953' post='4952192']
I think on course instruction is absolutely necessary. I can hit the ball like a 2 HC and then walk straight onto the course and my course swing is about a 15 HC. I've puzzled various instructors when they watch me hit on the range and tell them I shoot in the low to mid 80's, they all say I should be in the 70's including a former 2 time winner on the PGA tour and Hank Haney.
[/quote]


A great example that golf is not about playing "golf swing"...

So much more, yet so many get TOO FOCUSED on "golf swing"...

[CosmosMpower]

[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1337630303' post='4952488']
[quote name='CosmosMpower' timestamp='1337626953' post='4952192']
I think on course instruction is absolutely necessary. I can hit the ball like a 2 HC and then walk straight onto the course and my course swing is about a 15 HC. I've puzzled various instructors when they watch me hit on the range and tell them I shoot in the low to mid 80's, they all say I should be in the 70's including a former 2 time winner on the PGA tour and Hank Haney.
[/quote]


A great example that golf is not about playing "golf swing"...

So much more, yet so many get TOO FOCUSED on "golf swing"...
[/quote]

I completely agree but it's harder said than done. What do you do when you hit two giant pull hooks in a row off the teebox? Pretty hard not to start thinking about what you are doing then and trust the next one is going straight down the middle! The mind automatically starts racing thinking hrmm clubface was dead shut and too far from the inside, what do to do next....

[legitimategolf]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1337525786' post='4945776']
Your case is becoming more and more common, due to the Web and the flood of information out there right now on the golf swing, a lot of it is mostly theory and very technical information which is mainly only useful and effective in pointing you in the right direction if you are a mid to high handicap golfer, or can be very helpful if you are an advanced player working on a specific technical swing change with an instructor.

Folks, there is NO ANSWER to be found to one's ballstriking woes in the realm of swing theory or scientific explanations. The golf swing is NOT a science experiment - it is an athletic motion that requires a mind that is linked closely to the body motion ( and through the hands sensitivity, to the club motion) through kinethetic or feel channel awareness. I have posted about this concept many times on this and other forums and most of my comments have been routinely ignored, ie sailed right over everyone's heads. Why? Because the golf community conversation currently is dominated by a worldview that sees the answer ONLY in terms of theory. I say that is a fatally flawed premise.

If the OP wants to get better, you need to get your priorities in order. My educated guess is that you suffer from poor mind/body connection, a wandering mind and poor feel sense awareness for your body and club motion. Fix those issues first before worrying about which swing model to emulate. Then - find an instructor to work with locally who will teach you the basics in a Big Picture kind of way, and not let you get bogged down with the technical details.
[/quote]

you are my new swing guru

[pappaf2]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1337525786' post='4945776']
If the OP wants to get better, you need to get your priorities in order. My educated guess is that you suffer from poor mind/body connection, a wandering mind and poor feel sense awareness for your body and club motion. Fix those issues first before worrying about which swing model to emulate. Then - find an instructor to work with locally who will teach you the basics in a Big Picture kind of way, and not let you get bogged down with the technical details.
[/quote]


Jim, do you have any tips for how to improve the mind body connection and self awareness?

[naj959]

First off I want to say thanks for all of the replies to this thread and I really do try and absorb the criticism and learn from it. Now I'll try and answer a few of the questions that were posted in this thread.

As far as practice goes, I know I dont do it enough realisticly to post scores lower than I do but I'm working on that. On average I go to my practice facility twice a week and usually spend anywhere from 2 to 4 hours during each session. When I go I work on putting, chipping, bunker shots, pitch shots, and of course the full swing. Generally I spend the most time on the fullswing because I try and pick out a target on each swing and go through my preshot routine. Putting gets the most attention out of that because I have a buddy who is a scratch player and we have a couple of 18 hole matches. I owe him for my recent putting prowess. He tweaked my stroke and alighnment and I've made more putts in the past couple of months than I have in my entire life. Haven't played in over 6 months trying to sort out the fullswing.

As far as tweaking the swing goes I would argue that I was fairly committed to what I was doing for quite some time. I've stuck with pro 5 (Gary) for roughly 4 years and only went and saw Travis because Gary was out of town. After the lesson I mentallly deleted everything he told me because it was at odds with what Gary had been telling me for the past couple years. When I say i tried out the other methods that's not completely honest because I'll try out something I've read (Like stacking up on the left side) and hitting 5 or more balls and than reverting back to my "Gary" swing. I took one lesson (My first lesson 5 years after starting) from the inside out instructor and hit my first shank a few weeks later. I blamed him and abandoned his method shortly after. Out of the six instructors Gary is the only one I have taken more than one lesson from so in a way I guess I have chosen a method. I just can't figure out why I cant approach the ball from the proper angles doing what feels like the "Gary" swing. Obviously I'm not doing something that I was doing during the lesson but I wanted to try and figure it out on my own which has lead me no where. I guess I'll just have to shell out the money and have Gary straighten me out. As I mentioned earlier Gary teaches a rotary swing which is what I want to learn and the optimum way I believe a club should be swung but he doesn't stress things like kicking the right knee in at setup and making sure the hands stay in front of the pectoral which made me question wether or not he was the guy for me. I only tried swinging inside out again because I was fed up with hitting over the top pulls and pull fades and desparately wanted to see a draw. Tried it for the first time again on Friday and hit it beautifully. Tried it again on Saturday and shanked most of my bucket.


Russ: I'll try and post some video, I really appreciate you taking a look. I think Gary's Ideas and Slicefixers are perfectly compatible.

When I was playing and posting scores I was a terriblbe putter so my ballstriking might be a little better than a 30 hdc. I can get around the course playing a pull fade but I really hate to see that ball flight. Pull fades doen't run into too much trouble when I miss my targets. During the lessons and when I'm swinging extremely well I hit a no hands push draw. When I shot an 85 it was one of these days.

[mikpga]

[quote name='CosmosMpower' timestamp='1337635246' post='4953052']
[quote name='mikpga' timestamp='1337630303' post='4952488']
[quote name='CosmosMpower' timestamp='1337626953' post='4952192']
I think on course instruction is absolutely necessary. I can hit the ball like a 2 HC and then walk straight onto the course and my course swing is about a 15 HC. I've puzzled various instructors when they watch me hit on the range and tell them I shoot in the low to mid 80's, they all say I should be in the 70's including a former 2 time winner on the PGA tour and Hank Haney.
[/quote]


A great example that golf is not about playing "golf swing"...

So much more, yet so many get TOO FOCUSED on "golf swing"...
[/quote]

I completely agree but it's harder said than done. [b]What do you do when you hit two giant pull hooks in a row off the teebox?[/b] Pretty hard not to start thinking about what you are doing then and trust the next one is going straight down the middle! The mind automatically starts racing thinking hrmm clubface was dead shut and too far from the inside, what do to do next....
[/quote]

Golf is a game of the present shot at hand, not of the past...

I understand that it is easier said than done...

Need to train the mind better...

If you're playing golf, your thoughts/mind are focused on playing, if you're playing "golf swing" your thoughts/mind are thinking mechanics/positions which have nothing to do with playing the game...

[Sean2]

@Mikepga:
[b]
Need to train the mind better...

If you're playing golf, your thoughts/mind are focused on playing, if you're playing "golf swing" your thoughts/mind are thinking mechanics/positions which have nothing to do with playing the game...[/b]

Then I've never played golf. I'm ALWAYS thinking about my swing. I don't know how else to "play" as no one has ever explained this before. I thought everyone was in "swing mode".

The more I learn the dumber I feel.

[naj959]

Hey guys finally made it to the range last night and got to shoot some video. Have at it! On a side note Russ I tried your tee in the mouth drill while doing some pitches and 9 to 3 stuff and hit 3 or 4 of those effortless lag/compression shots. Ball got up a lot higher and went maybe 5-10 yards further with my gap wedge. Thanks again for that tip, I feel like I'm heading back down the right path again. Didn't get to film though because my crappy camera doesn't have much memory. Here are some full swing 7 irons before I tried the tee in the mouth drill. I believe every one of these shots was a straight fade if my memory serves me correctly. Probably between 10 and 15 yards. Hit a lot of pulls but didnt get those on camera. I'm also including a picture of my grip. [url="http://youtu.be/Bz2h1pt65bY"]dtl[/url] [url="http://youtu.be/i0MrGVF2IBk"]FO without head[/url] [url="http://youtu.be/DcSqRJtq_Cs"]FO with head[/url] One of the Face on videos shows my head but not the ball while the other is just the opposite.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1337855733' post='4969284']
Hey guys finally made it to the range last night and got to shoot some video. Have at it! On a side note Russ I tried your tee in the mouth drill while doing some pitches and 9 to 3 stuff and hit 3 or 4 of those effortless lag/compression shots. Ball got up a lot higher and went maybe 5-10 yards further with my gap wedge. Thanks again for that tip, I feel like I'm heading back down the right path again. Didn't get to film though because my crappy camera doesn't have much memory. Here are some full swing 7 irons before I tried the tee in the mouth drill. I believe every one of these shots was a straight fade if my memory serves me correctly. Probably between 10 and 15 yards. Hit a lot of pulls but didnt get those on camera. I'm also including a picture of my grip. [url="http://youtu.be/Bz2h1pt65bY"]dtl[/url] [url="http://youtu.be/i0MrGVF2IBk"]FO without head[/url] [url="http://youtu.be/DcSqRJtq_Cs"]FO with head[/url] One of the Face on videos shows my head but not the ball while the other is just the opposite.
[/quote]

i can not see your left hand grip very well so i can not comment on it.Notice the you can see the tip of your left thumb underneath your right thumb.This is an indication that your right hand is not fitted over the left thumb .The fleshy part of the right thumb should fit over the left thumb.In addition your right forefinger should be separated a little from the rest of the fingers .Similar to a trigger finger. [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGquU0TLct8"]My link[/url]
For now do not worry about your pulls .Head movement is not a problem.You need to improve your coil going back.After setting up with a slight spine tilt away from the target it is important that you just rotate around this tilted spine.Currently you have too much movement of your left knee towards the toe of your left foot..This results is a reduction of your coil and a coil more in the middle of your stance versus the correct way of into your right side.try this simple drill.Without a club and in front of a mirror,place your hands on opposite shoulders and tilt to the ball correctly.Now just turn your shoulders until they are in line with your right foot.Also refer to the "depth of turn drill" @ 13:30 on this link [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13byY9Lbr5g"]My link[/url].Notice that Dan's head is stable and that he maintains his spine angle and that there is no lateral movement either way by the hips going back
It might take some time ,but you will get yourself on the road to a much better swing

[cbrian]

I'm not trying to be mean, but this thread is the epitome of not understanding priorities.... or linkage.

[attachment=1178872:naj priorities.jpg]

[Colum]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1337510142' post='4945144']

[b]Eventually I gave up and tried to hit drivers as hard as my body could in case by some miracle I caught one solid.

[/b][/quote]


Thats the spirit!

[naj959]

cbrian can you elaborate. I take it you seem something that is fundamentally wrong and I can only guess as to what that is unless you clarify. Too much sliding, hips too level and front leg not straight enough at impact?

Played nine today for the first time in six months and realized I need to devote most of my time to pitches from 10-70 yards. Clearly the weakest part of my game right now. I've got no distance control. Was able to get around the course well enought and hit some good shots and the bad ones were all playable. Chipping, putting, and the sand shot I had were all prettty good. No shanks, tops, chunks or anything like that. Excited to put in some work this season.

[cbrian]

The lateral and rotational movement of your hips is stalling out. Not to be cryptic, but see if you can figure out why.

[Colum]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1337525786' post='4945776']
Your case is becoming more and more common, due to the Web and the flood of information out there right now on the golf swing, a lot of it is mostly theory and very technical information which is mainly only useful and effective in pointing you in the right direction if you are a mid to high handicap golfer, or can be very helpful if you are an advanced player working on a specific technical swing change with an instructor.

Folks, there is NO ANSWER to be found to one's ballstriking woes in the realm of swing theory or scientific explanations. The golf swing is NOT a science experiment - it is an athletic motion that requires a mind that is linked closely to the body motion ( and through the hands sensitivity, to the club motion) through kinethetic or feel channel awareness. I have posted about this concept many times on this and other forums and most of my comments have been routinely ignored, ie sailed right over everyone's heads. Why? Because the golf community conversation currently is dominated by a worldview that sees the answer ONLY in terms of theory. I say that is a fatally flawed premise.

If the OP wants to get better, you need to get your priorities in order. My educated guess is that you suffer from poor mind/body connection, a wandering mind and poor feel sense awareness for your body and club motion. Fix those issues first before worrying about which swing model to emulate. Then - find an instructor to work with locally who will teach you the basics in a Big Picture kind of way, and not let you get bogged down with the technical details.
[/quote]


I like it Jim.

[Jim Waldron]

Switching off the thinking mind and turning on the athletic mind is the key. Thinking is seeing internal visual images or talking to yourself, ie hearing your own voice in your head. Feeling is sensing your body motion and, through your hands, your club motion.

Eyes closed practice swings or even eyes closed ballstriking with the mind focused ONLY on one body part for the entire duration of the swing is a great exercise.

Slow motion mirror work is great for ingraining new movement patterns.

I had a student recently who had been to eight top instructors for lessons and golf schools, who had been playing for six years, and had read over 100 books on the golf swing.. Super intelligent guy, who spends a lot of time reading web golf swing forums. Really can talk the golf swing, better than many teaching pros.

When he came to see me, still was shooting 110-120.

This guy had ZERO feel sense awareness for his body and club motion and really had no interest in that at all. He was 100% convinced that it was all about his thinking mind finally un-covering the "Secret" of the golf swing.

Not one of those other instructors spent anytime teaching him body feel sense awareness and mental focus. That is the bias I was talking about in my earlier post. Folks - there is something seriously wrong here.

I saw another student recently who - like the first example - had read a lot of swing theory, but had never taken the time to learn a decent grip or Setup, and who was aiming 50 yards to the right of his target with every club in his bag. All he wanted to talk about with me was whether his club shaft was on plane or a few inches inside the plane during the Takeaway. Ridiculous!!!!

[jons1]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1337510142' post='4945144']
Background: I've been playing for thirteen years and have been to 6 different instructors. I started out shooting in the 100s and now break 90 on good days and shoot in the mid 90s on really bad ones. I spend way too much time on this forum and on youtube which I actually think has hurt more than helped. I am an incredibly inconsistent ballstriker and am lost when comes to how to swing a club. On the days when I go low (for me) I only miss 1 or 2 fariways and hit 6 or 7 greens. On the bad days I look a total hack and may only hit 3 fairways and just as many greens.

I have dabbled in TGM, Slicefixer, S&T and failed miserably at them all.

Present: Yesterday I struck the ball fairly well on the range and was pretty confident that I would be able to play later on this week and shoot a decent score. Today I wanted to get another range session in and shanked and chunked more than half of my ammo. Eventually I gave up and tried to hit drivers as hard as my body could in case by some miracle I caught one solid.

Dilemna: I've been to a lot of instructors, read a lot of this forum and watched a lot of youtube but don't seem to get any better and really dont know where to go from here. My second instructor had me stand really close to the ball, hood the face and swing in to out, which worked while I was there but when I worked on my own I caught a case of the shanks which is like having herpes. They never really go away. Eventually I got fed up and tried some other people out before i settled on one (pro 5) who had me working on a cetered pivot swing. He told me to: stop swaying, keep the head still, stay connected, cover the ball,release the club with the body and finish left and low. Me being the slicefixer fan that I am really liked this method and had one of the best ball striking days of my life. This was the first time I had ever felt the effortless lag, compression, distance that everyone raves about. Unfortunately I have not been able to duplicate this feeling even during our follow up lessons. Now I've gotten into the habit of taking the club back hooded, getting off plane at the top, coming over the top, and goat humping. I know that my steepnees causes the goat humping but I can't seem to fix it. The only tip for it he gave me was to stay in spine incination to the finish but we all know that is easier said than done. Durring my last lesson the guy I was working with was out of town so I hooked up with one of his colleagues/proteges (pro 6). The advice I got from him was puller opposite from what I had been doing and I was told to put more weight on my right side towards my toes, stand taller, keep the shoulders closed through impact and roatete the forearms. Since I didn't really agree with what he was saying I went back to what I had been doing before.
Currently I can't hit the ball to save my life even after doing all the drills pro #5 gave me. I take detailed notes after every lesson I take so you would think I would be able to get myself back on track but not so. Right now I feel like If I can't make a decent swing without #5 taping me and telling me what to tweak than maybe I need to look for an easier method. I wanted to snap all of my clubs in half tonight but a cooler head prevailed. Besides you don't want the juniors to see a grown man throw a tantrum.


Solutions: I need you guys to help me clear all of the clutter out of my mind and build a reliable, simple, repeatable swing before I wind up in an asylum or hang up my sticks. What's the eaisest way to strkie a ball? Keep in mind I would like to be able to build my own swing that I would be able to repair myself when it breaks down.


Challenges: My takeaway sucks and no matter how much I do the towell drill, roll a ball back drill or any other drill it still sucks (very handsy with a hooded clubface, right elbow gets behind me, very Hardy one plane ish) Bad takeaway causes me to get off plane going back and club gets behind me. Have to cove over the top in the downswing and goat hump in order to get the club on the ball. Posture sucks too lol. Have the hit impulse really bad and cant seem to tame it. My balance is terrible and I nearly fall over every time I try to do the feet togeter drill.

Positives: I'm a really good putter but at this rate I'll never get to a green lol.

[url="http://youtu.be/GnnHqHDJjQ8"]pro 2 dtl[/url] [url="http://youtu.be/RVXuFrpAHB8"]pro 2 fo[/url] [url="http://youtu.be/dfeFfLLfu6Y"]pro 5[/url] [url="http://youtu.be/nysLC1SzWZE"]pro 6[/url]
[/quote]




Dont be discouraged, because at any level you can get too technical.

We must accept the fact that we have athletic limitations, time limitations, and motivation limitations. We may not be realistic about those limitations, but when we get real, we make progress.

And with that perspective, a path that makes golf less complicated, not more complicated, teaches golfers how to swing a golf club. Breaking apart a golf swing into small static segments is only useful as a reference, a relative reference at that. You don't learn how to perform any activity that requires movement by doing something that is static. If I want to learn to do something that is static, I use static education. If I want to learn to do something that moves, I use movement. If you think of all the activities we do every day, and how we learned them, and compare that to how golf is taught at times, it's almost comical. You have to find what works for you, and sometimes that may mean following one method or another, or swinging one way or another, and that's part of the journey. Learning to create an impact position that is instinctual and sound to imparting a consistent flight of the ball, regardless of what that flight may look like, is the whole swing in summary. Remember, you'll never reach perfection, but the closer we get to it, the less we will be doing, and the less we'll be thinking about. If what you're doing ultimately requires you to do more, and think more, then it will never carry over to the course long term.

[naj959]

Excellent post golfpros1!

[TGrube]

[quote name='naj959' timestamp='1337574082' post='4949112']
Russ I've read quite a few of your post and lurked around the 9 to 3 forum for a couple of years now and know that you are the next best thing to talking to Geoff himself. I've got a few questions if you dont mind. Currently I take the hands way to deep in the backswing and get them way beind my shoulder at the top if you watch Pro 5 or 6 you can deffinately see this. Should I be trying to take the club a little more inside and than **** it up around 8 O'clock? That is more of what I was doing in video 2 but you can tell there was a lot of arm lift in those swings. If I understand correctly doing that takeaway and using a credit card in the left armpit will keep me from overswinging (Gears are working in my brain, think I answered my own question lol). Since my arms are in a better positions and assuming I get the headsway straightened out, they won't have to come out over plane and will be able to attack from the inside? Also do you know if either yourself or Geoff's students still have the feeling of swinging out to right field but the connection in the left arm pit brings the club on an inside square to inside arc and around with the turning core? I'm gonna work hard on straightening out my spine and try out these new thoughts.
[/quote]


Your angles are fine.You can certainly sort out a decent swing from the positions I noticed..If you have read any of the SF thread you would have noticed that the overswing that occurs in your swing is a big part of your problem.in doing such you loose your consistancy or ability to strike a golf ball consistantly.That's why at the range you can groove a decent swing.because out of repetition you time it better.Perhaps you hit 3 out of 5 good.It might feel like a good swing but you can't take it to the course cause you don't have the option of hitting 5 balls before every shot to figure out the timing element.Once the club continues past the body's rotation at the top an bounces,you are no longer in control, it can end up anywhere.Till you work that out you will forever be searching for consistancy..
I did notice some upper body lateral motion off the ball also.Not good as it adds another timing element to your swing.Also robbing you of power in the process..Get your spine angles right at adrress an learn to turn around your spine in control.when your turn stops your arms stop,your hands stop.You can swing as hard as you want from that position..You'll be surprised it will feel like a much shorter swing.but once you get it down you will hit it just as far...

[naj959]

Cbrian: I think my pivot stall comes from being a little out of sync and starting the transition with the upper body. Am I on the right track?

Russ: I think my backswing looks better but the transition and downswing still need a lot of work. I also noticed I'm a little out of sync but I've got credit cards for that. In the transition I dont really get into my left pivot point and instead turn the upper body in the start of the downswing. Am I correct? When I do try and transition and turn my hips I usually get block out the arms and hit a shank. Is this from turning the hips too shallow. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

Latest swings: [url="http://youtu.be/dP31CoEnZSM"]http://youtu.be/dP31CoEnZSM[/url]
[url="http://youtu.be/DX43D7V7Qw0"]http://youtu.be/DX43D7V7Qw0[/url]

My camera man doesn't have the steadiest hands lol.

[Gbyeball]

[quote name='jebb' timestamp='1337621921' post='4951596']
I couldn't agree more with golfsavvy and so much of what he says rings true in my experience.

One of the great things about the guy who teaches me is that I've been out on the course a few times with him. So he sees the highs and lows, bad decisions, poor strategy and aspects of the game I struggle with.

I just feel the things mentioned (feedback, observation, adjustment) are possible so much more with someone who can see you in the flesh. [i][b][size=5][color=#ff0000]Which is why good as they can be I'd leave the books and internet tips alone. Only my OP though.[/color][/size][/b][/i]

Good luck with it all!
[/quote]

A lot of great advice, in particular about picking on method and sticking with it. Op said the guy he is working with had him striking it solid, stick with this guy. I have been down the same road and have been with my instructor for 1-1/2 years now, best thing I have done for my game. I can be struggling and when I go to see him he has me fixed up in 5-10 mins because he knows me and my swing so well. The red bold above are words of wisdom. I heard an instructor once ask a student ( new to the game ) if he read golf magazines the student replied yes. The instructor told him to read arcticles on the short game but not on the full swing as there is too much conflicting advice and he would just get confused.

[jons1]

BTW, if it's only sometimes, you're not trying hard enough.