Slow Play Ruling in Pressel/Munoz Match

[KDMullins]

I didn't see this, but I've heard enough about it that I feel like I'm an expert on the topic. Regardless of how anybody feels about the appropriateness of the penalty on Pressel, I'm curious about how the rule was enforced, or maybe more appropriately, the timing of the enforcement of the rule. My understanding is that the penalty for the infraction was loss of the hole. What made it odd was that the infraction occurred on a hole she won, and she wasn't told about it until the next tee. So, she went from what she thought was 3UP to 1UP, which when the penalty was assessed, was actually a loss of two holes. I understand the ruling body would say she was 2UP before the hole started and the loss of the hole makes her 1UP. That's all well and good, but what if she'd have lost the hole anyway. Would there effectively have been no penalty? Was the guy keeping the clock just letting them finish the hole for funzies or what?

[3114]

I don't care what the LPGA is saying publically, privately they have pulled the rules official aside and told him that in the future he needs to use some common sense. The match consisted of two high profile players in the final stages of one of the most important tournaments on the schedule.Unless the player's actions were egregious, you can't have rules officials interjecting themselves. I realize that slow play is a serious problem and definitely needs to be dealt with; however, 29 extra seconds that were partly the responsibility of varying wind conditions is not the time for rules officials to be dictating the outcome of matches. It seems as though common sense is going the way of the dinosaur.

[lumberman2462]

It would have been the same 1up whether she made birdie and won the hole or triple bogey and lost the hole......

[sefus12]

I can understand how the ruling would annoy some people, but it is the rule. I have no idea if they were told to hurry up prior to the incident, but regardless they all know there's a shot clock and she took too much time.

[wjdpar1]

I believe they were on the clock because of Munoz's slow play on the front 9. Apparently Munoz (when warned) started to play faster. Pressel did not. Pressel got penalized and the penalty took the hole from her and gave it to Munoz. Effectively a 2 hole penalty.

I hate slow play, but something just isn't right about the situation and the penalty IMO.

[CallawayLefty]

The ruling was fine. The rule, however, sucks. I believe they said yesterday that once you are put on the clock you get 30 seconds per shot per hole (obviously not including walking time etc.). She took 59 seconds on the first shot on that hole because she switched clubs and then proceeded to go over by 20 seconds for the hole. How can you not be afforded time to switch clubs? This entire speed up play movement is lunacy, especially at the tournament level. In my opinion, if you play professionally, you should get as much time as you want. It's not like her playing competitor had somewhere else to be. They were playing for big time money in a big time event for an organization that is literally dying before our eyes. Tell some middle of the road LPGA player that they need to speed it up even if it costs them money and see what kind of response you get. They are on borrowed time. Every win, every dollar, etc. is ridiculously important. And casual fans simply shouldn't care. And if they do, they are idiots.

[ChipDriver]

The math trick is that Pressel did not actually win that hole - she lost it b/c of the penalty.

Therefore her prior score being "2 up" minus 1 b/c of the penalty = 1 up.

[KDMullins]

[quote name='ChipDriver' timestamp='1337629615' post='4952422']
The math trick is that Pressel did not actually win that hole - she lost it b/c of the penalty.

Therefore her prior score being "2 up" minus 1 b/c of the penalty = 1 up.
[/quote]

I understand, but if she had lost it, then there would've been no penalty? I guess it comes down to the fact that I can't believe he let them finish the hole. He obviously knew about he violation. What in the heck was he doing?

[AFcelica]

^^ exactly, if she went over her allotted time and lost the hole, why not tell them on the tee so they can make up a bunch of time by basically skipping that hole since it was already lost.

and the hole was already lost, so yeah if she would have lost the hole it would have in effect been no penalty because she lost the hole even before her first shot

[CallawayLefty]

Well technically she had 30 seconds per shot on the hole on average. So she could have made it up on the next shots. At least that's the way they explained it on the golf channel. Regardless, the rule is so stupid I don't even know where to begin. Again, it's not the official's fault...he was just enforcing a rarely enforced rule at a very inopportune moment. But the rule is there whether it gets enforced or not. That said, he's probably a Tee It Forward kind of guy who picks up after two shots on every hole to make sure pace of play is maintained at all costs.

[Jamboy72]

I have no issue with the rule or the ruling - these are exactly the types of situations which will bring light to the issue of slow play...they were warned, put on the clock and failed to play within the rules...I don't see where "common sense" comes into play...if I get caught speeding on the way to my wedding or on the way to a job interview, don't think the cop cares much either way...

Now, the rule of a lost hole in match play is a bit confusing here, as you're correct in that had she "lost" the hole by playing the hole out, there effectively wouldn't have been any penalty...whereas in stroke play an added stroke is an added stroke no matter what...seems like if you are going to deem a player out of position in match play you need to let them know before the completion of the hole, not after...

[Yepyukon]

The way I understood the rule was that they had 30 seconds to play each shot, but it is recorded as average time over the shots. But that seems kind of flawed if that is the case.

Example: Take a par 3. If she takes 32 seconds to hit her tee shot and 32 seconds to hit putt and make birdie...she is averaging 32 seconds and loses the hole based on the penalty. But, if she misses the birdie and walks up and taps in the par in 3 seconds, she is now averaging 22 seconds and has no penalty assessed. She doesn't win the hole, but she doesn't lose it either.

Can anyone tell me if I have that wrong? I just caught the explanation while making a sandwich so I might have heard it wrong.

[doubleagle2]

[quote name='Yepyukon' timestamp='1337631252' post='4952594']
The way I understood the rule was that they had 30 seconds to play each shot, but it is recorded as average time over the shots. But that seems kind of flawed if that is the case.

Example: Take a par 3. If she takes 32 seconds to hit her tee shot and 32 seconds to hit putt and make birdie...she is averaging 32 seconds and loses the hole based on the penalty. But, if she misses the birdie and walks up and taps in the par in 3 seconds, she is now averaging 22 seconds and has no penalty assessed. She doesn't win the hole, but she doesn't lose it either.

Can anyone tell me if I have that wrong? I just caught the explanation while making a sandwich so I might have heard it wrong.
[/quote]

I remember something about 30 seconds per shot plus 10 seconds she took 129 seconds 3 shots she was aloud 100 second 30 for each shot plus the 10 seconds so she was 29 seconds over

[J Jack]

TGC was saying this am that the timing is aggregate, hence the waiting until the end.
Also, her competitor might have done something during the hole (like, um, ground her putter on her line...) which would have had the same penalty, and it would have been a push.

The quick answer is: "because that's when they tell them"

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='CallawayLefty' timestamp='1337629288' post='4952390']
The ruling was fine. The rule, however, sucks. I believe they said yesterday that once you are put on the clock you get 30 seconds per shot per hole (obviously not including walking time etc.). She took 59 seconds on the first shot on that hole because she switched clubs and then proceeded to go over by 20 seconds for the hole. How can you not be afforded time to switch clubs? This entire speed up play movement is lunacy, especially at the tournament level. In my opinion, if you play professionally, you should get as much time as you want. It's not like her playing competitor had somewhere else to be. They were playing for big time money in a big time event for an organization that is literally dying before our eyes. Tell some middle of the road LPGA player that they need to speed it up even if it costs them money and see what kind of response you get. They are on borrowed time. Every win, every dollar, etc. is ridiculously important. And casual fans simply shouldn't care. And if they do, they are idiots.
[/quote]
I don't care how much money is on the line, slow play is slow play, and a professional damn well aught to be able to make a decision more quickly than an am. Selecting and executing a show in a reasonable amount of time is part of the game.

That said, there needs to be a better way to implement the rule.

And hey, thanks for calling me an idiot.

[Scaldy]

I wish they would look at cleaning up the putting time first before resorting to these stroke penalties for time allotted. For example, make players[b] putt out[/b]. If you are not impeding someone's line, [u][b]don't mark it, putt out[/b][/u]. That alone would save a good amount of time. Or how about not lining your ball with an aim mark. We all use to survive without one. Maybe caddies should not be lining up players shots if that adds to much time. My point is, look at other areas to clean up slow play before it has to come down to a semi final match play event.
Doh!

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='Scaldy' timestamp='1337639561' post='4953516']
I wish they would look at cleaning up the putting time first before resorting to these stroke penalties for time allotted. For example, make players[b] putt out[/b]. If you are not impeding someone's line, [u][b]don't mark it, putt out[/b][/u]. That alone would save a good amount of time. Or how about not lining your ball with an aim mark. We all use to survive without one. Maybe caddies should not be lining up players shots if that adds to much time. My point is, look at other areas to clean up slow play before it has to come down to a semi final match play event.
Doh!
[/quote]
Well, wouldn't penalizing them for slow play force players to look at those options to speed up play? Isn't that the point to the rule?

[Man In The Miura]

Slow play stinks, and I agree there should be ways to move these pros along. I do believe, however, that if rules are going to potentially cost someone, male or female, hundreds of thousands of dollars, there should at least be some minimum investment made to implement the rule in a way that is completely transparent and obvious to those involved. It might sound stupid, but how about some poor rules guy in a cart with a big timer ticking away for all to see. Whatever works. It's just a hard rule to implement without some concrete methodology. When does 30 seconds start, etc.

I timed myself a couple months ago. I play 18 holes in 3 hours. I took 40 seconds from the time i put my bag down to the time I picked my bag up. In my view, it's not always about how long the shot take as much as it is about how long the complete hole takes.

[Hifade]

She deserved it...she got it and I'm fine with it. How many practice swings does one person need? My God, make a decision and pull the trigger. The extra time she took on the tee shot due to the wind could have been made up on the next shot but she preceded to take several practice swings and same goes for the putt. Thirty seconds is a long time to take to play every single shot in; especially when you know you're on the clock. In addition, MP's attempt to call out AM for "touching her line" was bush league and a JV move IMHO. She does the same thing every time as part of her routine. After reviewing the broadcast replay tape, they even recognized that no infraction had been made. MP said she noticed AM doing it earlier in the round but "wasn't sure." So, she was more sure after she had been called out? WTF???

[BrianMcG]

I can understand slow play rules on Thursday and Friday when you can have 200+ competitors on the course or haveing double tees like they do at some events and the U.S. Open.

But when there is only two matches on the course, or its the final few pairings in a major, come on, thats just DUMB. Start fining them money not strokes. Don't change the outcome of the tournament.

[ChipDriver]

None of this matters if the players would simply play faster.

I just read something where a pro was complaining about slow play (regarding Kevin Na). Said something like: compared to a weekend foursome - pros play with 2 less people and the average pro round was 5:45....about 1.5 hours longer.

Think about it:

2 less people
1.5 hours more.

C'mon..that's too slow. I don't want guys at my golf courses imitating THAT.

[ghalfaire]

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1337626700' post='4952172']
It would have been the same 1up whether she made birdie and won the hole or triple bogey and lost the hole......
[/quote]

Are you saying if she lost the hole that there would not have been a penalty? Some how that doesn't seem sensible to me. Of course what happened didn't make a lot of sense to me in any case, but I guess the rules are the rules.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='Man In The Miura' timestamp='1337640515' post='4953634']
Slow play stinks, and I agree there should be ways to move these pros along. I do believe, however, that if rules are going to potentially cost someone, male or female, hundreds of thousands of dollars, there should at least be some minimum investment made to implement the rule in a way that is completely transparent and obvious to those involved. It might sound stupid, but how about some poor rules guy in a cart with a big timer ticking away for all to see. Whatever works. It's just a hard rule to implement without some concrete methodology. When does 30 seconds start, etc.

I timed myself a couple months ago. I play 18 holes in 3 hours. I took 40 seconds from the time i put my bag down to the time I picked my bag up. In my view, it's not always about how long the shot take as much as it is about how long the complete hole takes.
[/quote]
The rules do define when the 30 seconds begin and players are told when they are on the clock. In addition, it takes repeated slow play to be put on the clock. No need for a big clock - many players play withint the rules without a clock.

My biggest complaint every time this come sup is the wrong player may be penalized. Muñoz slows down play so the group is put on the clock - then Pressel has a slow hole for whatever reason and even though it is her first slow hole she receives the penalty.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='BrianMcG' timestamp='1337640910' post='4953664']
I can understand slow play rules on Thursday and Friday when you can have 200+ competitors on the course or haveing double tees like they do at some events and the U.S. Open.

But when there is only two matches on the course, or its the final few pairings in a major, come on, thats just DUMB. Start fining them money not strokes. Don't change the outcome of the tournament.
[/quote]
So, which rules are enforced? Do they get enforced only on busy days? Do we only enforce the convenient rules? They all effect the outcome.

[SadTrombone]

15 minutes per hole. Start there and reduce as appropriate.

[OldGolfer87]

I do understand the concept of the ruling against Morgan and in a stroke play event where a group's pace of play can effect those behind them but in this case where no one was being help up ..well it is just wrong ,i know in big games in ice hockey it seems to be common knowledge that the referee is not determine a outcome of a game due to a penalty unless it is glaringly obvious and the referee determined the outcome of this match with a unnecessary penalty .. calling a penalty against either player in this case was just misguided imho

[farmer]

They were warned twice. Munoz apparently speeded up, Pressel did not. The situation made the ruling bad, but it was fairly applied. I didn't see the first part of the match, but it must have been played at an unbearable pace.

[Awsi Dooger]

[quote name='3114' timestamp='1337626616' post='4952156']
I don't care what the LPGA is saying publically, privately they have pulled the rules official aside and told him that in the future he needs to use some common sense. The match consisted of two high profile players in the final stages of one of the most important tournaments on the schedule.Unless the player's actions were egregious, you can't have rules officials interjecting themselves. I realize that slow play is a serious problem and definitely needs to be dealt with; however, 29 extra seconds that were partly the responsibility of varying wind conditions is not the time for rules officials to be dictating the outcome of matches. It seems as though common sense is going the way of the dinosaur. [/quote]

Exactly. It was a 100% gutless move by the LPGA, capitalizing on situational impact. Slow play has been an obsession in recent weeks so the tour, and particularly that drill sergeant official, realized there was zero risk to the call, even if it violated common sense and changed the math in the Pressel/Munoz match to ridiculous degree. A high percentage of golf fans were going to stuffily accept and even champion the ruling, no matter the circumstances, simply because it made them feel better. Twenty-nine seconds tardy...burn the witch! Burn her! Burn her!

The PGA approach is markedly more sensible, evaluating after the fact and imposing fines, not strokes. An LPGA spokesman conceded yesterday that two other players would be fined for slow play based on Sybase, but neither one of them was penalized a hole, as Pressel was.

Golf simply does not fit well into shot clock conformity. Imagine an outdoor NBA game with a severe gust blowing over the backboard. Sorry, 24 second violation. In this case Phil Parkin was the only Golf Channel employee who stood up to the tour and denounced the ruling, describing the situation with applied situational logic. When a gust altered the way the hole was playing, Morgan walked to her bag and grabbed the second club. She didn't even consult with her caddie, which would have been normal but obviously delayed the shot. When she pulled the shot, Morgan was down the hill in relatively heavy rough. She had to pace up the hill to view the terrain and requirements of the pitch, then naturally the practice strokes in that type of rough require more evaluation and practice swings than normal. It was hardly a simple bump and run on level ground from an enviable lie.

Yet the rules official announced on Golf Channel that the only leeway he was allowed was making sure the crowd was hush on the tee. Somehow, that didn't surprise me, given all the LPGA flubs in recent years, like a playoff in Q School when a playoff wasn't required, or providing bad information to two college players last season regarding Symetra Tour eligibility. Stephanie Kono attended final stage Q School when she otherwise didn't plan to, solely because the LPGA -- twice -- botched an understanding of their own eligibility rules. UCLA is a slight favorite to defend its national title this week. With Kono they would be a considerable chalk.

Anyway, slow play was not a problem all week. Read the articles prior to the Pressel/Munoz controversy. None of them focused on length of the matches. It certainly wasn't a theme on the Golf Channel coverage. The LPGA invented a problem -- 8 minutes behind, gad -- and most likely altered the eventual winner.

That's what galls me. Pressel was a small betting favorite over Munoz, 10/13 or -130. With a one hole lead with six holes remaining, her advantage is roughly 4/9 or -225. With a 3 hole lead and six remaining, that edge literally explodes to nearly 1/20 (-2000). There's a massive difference between the match at 1 and 3 at that point, far beyond Even or 2, or 1 either side. Golf Channel never adequately described that aspect. Johnny Miller is the only golf announcer who grasps the math. When he says, "I'll give him a 3 in 10 chance of 3 putting from here," it's always remarkably astute. Golf Channel allowed 3 to turn into 1 and nobody said much of anything. Of course, Charlie Rymer was too busy giving away the result.

[allegrolink]

Did anyone see this? Was there any video of them playing the hole?

[eric_b]

Sure....rules are rules.....but that doesn't change the fact that many aspects of this situation stink. Few things that come to mind:

-why is it that i can play slow.....get my group on the clock....pick up my pace and hope i don't need extra time.....and potentially screw my playing partner(s) if they happen to make a mess of a hole. That's basically what munoz did....i'm not saying she did it intentionally.....but she got them on the clock....then pressel needs more time on a hole....bam, she gets nailed. I don't care if munoz "heeded the warning".....SHE caused the situation....why is anyone else affected?

-i wanna time scores of EVERY group that has been put on the clock on the LPGA tour this year.....cause i have a very strong suspicion that they haven't given a penalty every time someone went over the 30 seconds per shot + 10 seconds grace time score they've alloted.....if there are any inconsistencies.....well.....

-i've read that a slow group is supposed to receive ONE warning, be put on the clock, then penalties.....maybe i'm wrong about this....but if i'm right....they received TWO warnings. Why did they suddenly change the process? Make concessions about one part of the process and the whole thing becomes moot.....my wife got out of a speeding ticket because the cop didn't put the date on the ticket.....it sounds stupid....but if you have a process, you have to follow it 100% or it becomes void.....

-my friends and i watched gc where they were showing the shot clock for MP.....to show how they got to the final time....for giggles, we each timed her according to the footage.....i was 19 seconds less than the time the LPGA got and my 2 buddies were 5 seconds over and 23 seconds under respectively......sure, we're just a couple of guys messing around at a bbq where GC is on in the background and yes, all our timings would result in a penalty.....but it goes to show that the timing process is completely subjective and inconsistent.....

The fact is that this isn't about slow play....we can all agree slow play is a pain in the butt and a problem that should be dealt with.....this situation is about the application of rules to combat slow play....and, IMHO, what we're getting here is the realization that making such rules is probably not gonna work.....it's gonna require quite a bit of subjectivity on the part of officials....and, in the end, that's just gonna lead to inconsistencies and a whole lot of heartache.....i work for a federal regulator and i see these kinds of problems EVERY DAY.....making rules that are followable and enforeable and overseeing compliance to said rules in a fair and consistent manner is REALLY REALLY hard to do.....

Basically, we all know slow play is an issue....but how to do you make a equitable rule and enforce it in a consistent manner? Long story longer.....don't expect the pga tour to do anything cause i doubt they want the noise we're creating right now.

Final point.....Jason Sobel brought this up on morning drive yesterday.....this is the equivalent of travelling in the NBA. They call travelling inconsistently at best....then they call someone for it in the 4th quarter of game 7 of the finals.....sure.....rules are rules....but it doesn't make the situation smell any less worse.....