Slow Play Ruling in Pressel/Munoz Match

[Jamboy72]

[quote name='Awsi Dooger' timestamp='1337656516' post='4955718']
[quote name='3114' timestamp='1337626616' post='4952156']
I don't care what the LPGA is saying publically, privately they have pulled the rules official aside and told him that in the future he needs to use some common sense. The match consisted of two high profile players in the final stages of one of the most important tournaments on the schedule.Unless the player's actions were egregious, you can't have rules officials interjecting themselves. I realize that slow play is a serious problem and definitely needs to be dealt with; however, 29 extra seconds that were partly the responsibility of varying wind conditions is not the time for rules officials to be dictating the outcome of matches. It seems as though common sense is going the way of the dinosaur. [/quote]

Exactly. It was a 100% gutless move by the LPGA, capitalizing on situational impact. Slow play has been an obsession in recent weeks so the tour, and particularly that drill sergeant official, realized there was zero risk to the call, even if it [b]violated common sense[/b] and changed the math in the Pressel/Munoz match to ridiculous degree. A high percentage of golf fans were going to stuffily accept and even champion the ruling, no matter the circumstances, simply because it made them feel better. Twenty-nine seconds tardy...burn the witch! Burn her! Burn her!
[b]
The PGA approach is markedly more sensible[/b], evaluating after the fact and imposing fines, not strokes. An LPGA spokesman conceded yesterday that two other players would be fined for slow play based on Sybase, but neither one of them was penalized a hole, as Pressel was.

Golf simply does not fit well into shot clock conformity. Imagine an outdoor NBA game with a severe gust blowing over the backboard. Sorry, 24 second violation. In this case Phil Parkin was the only Golf Channel employee who stood up to the tour and denounced the ruling, describing the situation with applied situational logic. When a gust altered the way the hole was playing, Morgan walked to her bag and grabbed the second club. She didn't even consult with her caddie, which would have been normal but obviously delayed the shot. When she pulled the shot, Morgan was down the hill in relatively heavy rough. She had to pace up the hill to view the terrain and requirements of the pitch, then naturally the practice strokes in that type of rough require more evaluation and practice swings than normal. It was hardly a simple bump and run on level ground from an enviable lie.

Yet the rules official announced on Golf Channel that the only leeway he was allowed was making sure the crowd was hush on the tee. Somehow, that didn't surprise me, given all the LPGA flubs in recent years, like a playoff in Q School when a playoff wasn't required, or providing bad information to two college players last season regarding Symetra Tour eligibility. Stephanie Kono attended final stage Q School when she otherwise didn't plan to, solely because the LPGA -- twice -- botched an understanding of their own eligibility rules. UCLA is a slight favorite to defend its national title this week. With Kono they would be a considerable chalk.

Anyway, slow play was not a problem all week. Read the articles prior to the Pressel/Munoz controversy. None of them focused on length of the matches. It certainly wasn't a theme on the Golf Channel coverage. The LPGA invented a problem -- 8 minutes behind, gad -- and most likely altered the eventual winner.

That's what galls me. Pressel was a small betting favorite over Munoz, 10/13 or -130. With a one hole lead with six holes remaining, her advantage is roughly 4/9 or -225. With a 3 hole lead and six remaining, that edge literally explodes to nearly 1/20 (-2000). There's a massive difference between the match at 1 and 3 at that point, far beyond Even or 2, or 1 either side. Golf Channel never adequately described that aspect. Johnny Miller is the only golf announcer who grasps the math. When he says, "I'll give him a 3 in 10 chance of 3 putting from here," it's always remarkably astute. Golf Channel allowed 3 to turn into 1 and nobody said much of anything. Of course, Charlie Rymer was too busy giving away the result.
[/quote]


I don't know that I agree with this...I can understand where you're coming from, but I guess for my money following the rules is the example of common sense, not the exception...and to suggest that the PGA tour's policy is much better is laughable...it clearly doesn't work...players think and know it's a joke...it's a phantom policy at best...also I do agree the ruling did change the feel and momentum of the match, but no one can say with certainty it decided the winner...
I'm always at a bit of a loss as to why we don't spend more time dealing with the people who have the best opportunity to address the issue...the players!

If they play faster, the rule doesn't have to be enforced...

[rustyputterguy]

[quote name='ghalfaire' timestamp='1337644332' post='4954030']
Are you saying if she lost the hole that there would not have been a penalty? Some how that doesn't seem sensible to me. Of course what happened didn't make a lot of sense to me in any case, but I guess the rules are the rules.
[/quote]
I'm not sure if anyone answered this. It didn't matter if she won or lost the hole. The penalty didn't technically occur until she was done with the hole. Because she was penalized, basically there was no result on that hole based on the play. She didn't win or lose it based on play. She lost the hole because of the time penalty and that's the only thing that counts, the results of actual play on the hole don't matter.


What I'm curious about is how much of an effect TV schedules had to do with the LPGA wanting them to pick up the pace of play. They had, potentially, 6 more holes to play at that point, I'm guessing a little down time after the match and then two matches to be played in the afternoon. Was the afternoon play covered on the GC? Could they have been concerned about getting the championship match in and done in the time slot GC had carved out for it?

[tElihu]

Poorly thought out rule (too many scenarios that would render the ruling even more unfair and/or ridiculous than the one this weekend) but at least the LPGA tour had the guts to actually enforce it.

Finchem and co., however...

[eric_b]

[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1337705315' post='4958618']
[b]Poorly thought out rule (too many scenarios that would render the ruling even more unfair and/or ridiculous than the one this weekend) but at least the LPGA tour had the guts to actually enforce it.

[/b]Finchem and co., however...
[/quote]


Dude....you nailed it. Slow play.....lets get 'em.....but the way the whole situation went down just blows.

With respect to the whole scenario thing......I was talking to a friend at coffee break.....he made a glib comment to the effect of "what was pressel supposed to do? yell at munoz to hurry up on the front 9?".....i laughed, then i realized that this was one of the ways she could have avoided the penalty.....just silly.

[allegrolink]

[quote name='rustyputterguy' timestamp='1337704781' post='4958554']
[...The penalty didn't technically occur until she was done with the hole. ...
[/quote]

Was it over when MP holed out? If so, why did they let Munoz putt and then pick up? Would anything she did after MP holed out effect the result of that hole -- what if she touched her line, mis-marked her ball, or also took too long? How does letting a player line up a putt, and putt, when the hole is over save time?

[Jimbud]

[quote name='allegrolink' timestamp='1337712772' post='4959318']
[quote name='rustyputterguy' timestamp='1337704781' post='4958554']
[...The penalty didn't technically occur until she was done with the hole. ...
[/quote]

Was it over when MP holed out? If so, why did they let Munoz putt and then pick up? Would anything she did after MP holed out effect the result of that hole -- what if she touched her line, mis-marked her ball, or also took too long? How does letting a player line up a putt, and putt, when the hole is over save time?
[/quote]


The pair was not informed of the penalty until they were on the next tee box. At least from the TV coverage that's what it looked like.

[9ccat9]

The rule is poorly thought out, players should be put on the clock not groups. The timing of this ruling is worse and should have never been made. We all hate slow play....I can't stand it but this lacks common sense. I really think the only reason that people would get behind this is because we have all been stuck behind a sloooooow group and it ruins our day. This is a professional event and totally different, I could care less if they play in 5,6, or 7 hours because I am not behind them!
Sometimes a Ref needs to swallow the whistle...........

[esketores]

There was one other twosome on the course. (The television producers were probably having a fit.) So to be in the moment and be aware of pace of play when you have nothing to use as a reference can be difficult.

They should have been told of the penalty coming off the the green. By so doing the players have a chance to compose themselves while walking to the next tee box. Waiting until the next tee box so the rules official could his 15 minutes of fame is with what I take issue. And he should be terminate for a lack of common sense.

[HeadonaStick]

[quote name='eric_b' timestamp='1337706759' post='4958786']
[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1337705315' post='4958618']
[b]Poorly thought out rule (too many scenarios that would render the ruling even more unfair and/or ridiculous than the one this weekend) but at least the LPGA tour had the guts to actually enforce it.

[/b]Finchem and co., however...
[/quote]


Dude....you nailed it. Slow play.....lets get 'em.....but the way the whole situation went down just blows.

With respect to the whole scenario thing......I was talking to a friend at coffee break.....he made a glib comment to the effect of "what was pressel supposed to do? yell at munoz to hurry up on the front 9?".....i laughed, then i realized that this was one of the ways she could have avoided the penalty.....just silly.
[/quote]
I believe that once a group is put on the clock each player is timed individually - yelling at Muñoz to hurry up wouldn't have helped Pressel.

[Oldboy]

The rule is in the books .. they were behind .. they were warned .. twice i believe ..

TGC showed MP after the warning and it didn't appear that she even gave a damn, she did not pick up her pace of play .. and she said in the post interview that she didn't think anything was gonna happen .. so .. i've got no problem with how it played out .. if you don't enforce the rule it might as well not exist and players won't think anything will happen .. the question now is how consistent will the officials be from here on out?

[Awsi Dooger]

[quote name='esketores' timestamp='1337735489' post='4961508']
There was one other twosome on the course. (The television producers were probably having a fit.) So to be in the moment and be aware of pace of play when you have nothing to use as a reference can be difficult.

They should have been told of the penalty coming off the the green. By so doing the players have a chance to compose themselves while walking to the next tee box. Waiting until the next tee box so the rules official could his 15 minutes of fame is with what I take issue. And he should be terminate for a lack of common sense. [/quote]

I agree with your second paragraph cynicism. Two weeks after the Kevin Na situation and a rules official makes the most high profile judgment ever regarding slow play, making sure to place himself front and center on camera, calling out his verdict, and later agreeing to interviews. Hard to believe it was two purely unrelated events.

I've seen an argument on other sites, posters claiming the coverage ended at 6:45 instead of 6 PM as scheduled, allowing weight to their notion of slow play all day. Meanwhile, the coverage was shown on tape delay. Once the preceding Nationwide Event ran long, with a 3-hole playoff, Golf Channel wisely decided to show the final two hours of the Sybase on delayed basis instead of live, as originally scheduled. If they had gone live it would have limited the coverage to a scant number of holes, and not allowed time to properly cover the major story of the day, the Pressel/Munoz incident.

Always check the bottom right of the screen, just above the Golf Channel logo. If it doesn't say LIVE, it isn't.

As I posted earlier in the thread, IMO it was a 100% gutless decision by the LPGA. It requires zero competence or class to cave in to recent public pressure, which is all the LPGA accomplished, other than altering the outcome of a huge event. Major kudos to Finchem and the PGA for handling the situation calmly and avoiding poorly applied inequitable spur of the moment gaffes. I love the argument that we don't know who would have won. I darn sure know applied probability. Morgan was roughly 4/9 favorite at 1 up. She would have been nearly 1/20 at 3 up. Just because the TV guys don't know enough to tell you that, it doesn't make the numbers less accurate. A couple of months ago the networks were trying to pretend a political nomination was still up for grabs depending on a handful of states, when the trading price on one of the candidates was above 95%.

On the LPGA blog Life on Tour, an LPGA caddie who commented under a post yesterday said he was in the group earlier this year in Phoenix when a penalty was applied. He said the timing was wrong and the player should not have been penalized, in his opinion. But the player had no recourse, which is the LPGA policy unless two timers are used and there was a discrepancy between them. He emphasized that some tour officials start the clock at different points than others, regardless what the tour wants the public or media to believe.

BTW, on another site last night I saw a post from Tony Jesselli, a huge LPGA fan who used to post here (tonyj -- I think it was). Tony agrees with my perspective, that Morgan essentially was a victim of recent obsession with slow play. Tony wrote something that surprised me, that Azahara Munoz is known as the slowest player on tour. I didn't realize that. Tony attends many events so I'll place great value on his version. Previously I think Sandra Gal had that tag but other players have credited her with picking up the pace.

Tony certainly had a front row perspective last week. I watched the Sybase replay last night and Tony (curly hair) showed up in the coverage at the very end of the telecast, leaning toward the golf cart to congratulate Azahara after her victory.

[eric_b]

[quote name='HeadonaStick' timestamp='1337736128' post='4961568']
[quote name='eric_b' timestamp='1337706759' post='4958786']
[quote name='tElihu' timestamp='1337705315' post='4958618']
[b]Poorly thought out rule (too many scenarios that would render the ruling even more unfair and/or ridiculous than the one this weekend) but at least the LPGA tour had the guts to actually enforce it.

[/b]Finchem and co., however...
[/quote]


Dude....you nailed it. Slow play.....lets get 'em.....but the way the whole situation went down just blows.

With respect to the whole scenario thing......I was talking to a friend at coffee break.....he made a glib comment to the effect of "what was pressel supposed to do? yell at munoz to hurry up on the front 9?".....i laughed, then i realized that this was one of the ways she could have avoided the penalty.....just silly.
[/quote]
I believe that once a group is put on the clock each player is timed individually - yelling at Muñoz to hurry up wouldn't have helped Pressel.
[/quote]


Yes it would have....re-read what I wrote. If Pressel had yelled Munoz to hurry up on the FRONT 9.....when Munoz was playing slow and got them on the clock.....they wouldn't have been put on the clock and those 29 seconds wouldn't have mattered.

All that is immaterial however....as the problem is the way the rule works.....I think we all agree that slow play is the devil.....it drives us nuts on the course and bores us to tears as tv coverage reaches a close....in addition, i think we all give mad props to the LPGA for taking a stand on slow play and dropping the hammer.....however, i think we can also all agree that there are holes in this rule that you can drive a friggin' transport truck through.

[KYMAR]

I am leaning more and more towards agreement with the idea that at least some part of this was grandstanding by this official. What is the point of allowing both players and caddies to get to the tee nearly ready to hit, then walk up in front of them, in grand entrance style? When watching the replay , I am surprised he didn't start his "i am the arbiter of justice" ruling/speech by reaching back a good 400 years and dropping a hearty "Hear ye, hear ye" on the assembled masses as part of the preamble.

The rule is just bad. This particular application was worse. I hope the tour does in fact have a talking to with this guy although he is the one with the stop watch and the "rules on his side." That will be the argument for doing nothing because the rule is in place despite being , as buddy the elf would say, Very sucky! The tour can't really argue with the guy. They themselves built in a "he did his job" line into this abysmal rule with NO recourse. This is not to say that no rule that involves stroke/loss of hole penalty's can be any good. But as I and others have already said, the idea that one can be penalized from what is predominantly the slowness issue of their competitor is absurd. And even if you don't agree with that, go back and watch the hole as MP played it. NO ONE on any tour would have done anything different when faced with the circumstances she was. Proper club selection based on changing conditions and then doing her best, in what can only be considered a reasonable amount of time, to measure up the requirements of a difficult/blind shot. Do we really want a[i]ny [/i]rule that forces a competitor to [i]just hit the thing[/i] for the sake of saving a few seconds? Ridiculous.

[scottdc52]

As far as the Pressel/Munoz slow play ruling, I am on the fence. If Munoz caused them to be on the clock to begin with, how can Morgan then get the penalty? It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

However, going back to The Players, it was said that Na was actually running in between shots on Sunday to allow Kuchar to have more time with his shots. How that makes sense is beyond me as well. Also, there was no video of this, so I don't know how true it is...it was just reported on Golf Channel that Na was running.

I think the Na thing is a little different though. I know he's been slow for a long time, but we saw something different at the Players. He was getting frustrated with himself, which is odd and different. He knows he's slow and it frustrates him. I heard him several times on Saturday apologize to Zach Johnson on the Tee Box. I heard him clearly on two occassions on the tee box, as he would back off a shot, say, "Sorry Zach." He's trying to work on it, and based on his interview on Monday's Golf Central, he's taken the waggle completely out. We'll see what happens when Thursday comes around, with pressure and competition. Will he resort back to the waggles? Hopefully not.

I agree with those in this thread that have brought up the timing of the Pressel penalty....both the comments about the importance of the match, and also, the penalty being called on the next tee as opposed to when putts were holed out on the 12th hole. I also agree that the rules official wanted his 15 minutes of fame.....including doing interviews afterwards. Reminded me of Steve Williams interview after the Bridgestone Tournament last year, which took away from Adam Scott's win and was completely unprofessional on CBS's side and Williams' side.

Its unfortunate that the slow play issue played out in such an important match in such an unfortunate way. It was good to see that it didn't hinder Pressel's friendship with Munoz. scott c.

[scottdc52]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1337780346' post='4963888']
I am leaning more and more towards agreement with the idea that at least some part of this was grandstanding by this official. What is the point of allowing both players and caddies to get to the tee nearly ready to hit, then walk up in front of them, in grand entrance style? When watching the replay , I am surprised he didn't start his "i am the arbiter of justice" ruling/speech by reaching back a good 400 years and dropping a hearty "Hear ye, hear ye" on the assembled masses as part of the preamble.

The rule is just bad. This particular application was worse. I hope the tour does in fact have a talking to with this guy although he is the one with the stop watch and the "rules on his side." That will be the argument for doing nothing because the rule is in place despite being , as buddy the elf would say, Very sucky! The tour can't really argue with the guy. They themselves built in a "he did his job" line into this abysmal rule with NO recourse. This is not to say that no rule that involves stroke/loss of hole penalty's can be any good. But as I and others have already said, the idea that one can be penalized from what is predominantly the slowness issue of their competitor is absurd. And even if you don't agree with that, go back and watch the hole as MP played it. NO ONE on any tour would have done anything different when faced with the circumstances she was. Proper club selection based on changing conditions and then doing her best, in what can only be considered a reasonable amount of time, to measure up the requirements of a difficult/blind shot. Do we really want a[i]ny [/i]rule that forces a competitor to [i]just hit the thing[/i] for the sake of saving a few seconds? Ridiculous.
[/quote]

"Grandstanding by the official".

I agree 100%. This has become an ugly thing in sports....umpires, referees, officials, etc, etc. Yes, they are there to call the games as they see it....yes, it gives them a little authority....but some guys just take it over the top.

A couple years ago, there was a girl on the Future's Tour, who was in contention in a tournament (she might have even been in the lead). One of her playing partners was suspisious of her wedges and called an official in. He DQ'd the girl on the spot, because he THOUGHT her wedges had illegal grooves. Instead of what was actually in the rules book.....The girl should have been allowed to finish the round, and then the wedges should have been examined. But, no, this official took it into his own hands, and DQ'd her on the spot. Her wedges were actually conforming, and within the rules. This poor girl missed out on a pay check, and potentially, a win, all because an official thought he was doing the right thing. That's ridiculous. scott c.

[Cajun83]

I think the whole "slow play" issue is seriously overblown. Is it really that big of a deal to anyone that this girl took 9 extra seconds? I mean, sure if it is a serious problem (taking multiple minutes) then by all means, penalize. But a few extra seconds? Unless they are going to impliment a "shot clock" I can't agree with timing a players shots. It's unfair to the normally fast player in the group that gets caught "on the clock" because of their pokey competitor.

Furthermore... golf is a slow, methodical game. If you want fast, flip up one channel and watch F1.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='Cajun83' timestamp='1337790679' post='4964906']
I think the whole "slow play" issue is seriously overblown. Is it really that big of a deal to anyone that this girl took 9 extra seconds? I mean, sure if it is a serious problem (taking multiple minutes) then by all means, penalize. But a few extra seconds? Unless they are going to impliment a "shot clock" I can't agree with timing a players shots. It's unfair to the normally fast player in the group that gets caught "on the clock" because of their pokey competitor.

Furthermore... golf is a slow, methodical game. [b] If you want fast, flip up one channel and watch F1.
[/b]

[/quote]

I sort of agree that the slow play thing is at times overblown as far as the pros go but, it is a problem. Although i see it more as a problem on the men's side than the LPGA. But the watch F1 thing was funny regardless.

[mesquite2]

I think that it was an outstanding decision & & hope the LPGA keeps it up & I hope that the PGA takes note & does it too. People(including pro's) take WAY too long to hit a shot or putt.

[rustyputterguy]

"Grandstanding by the official".

Was there an interview or information out there that this guy was just being a cowboy?

When MP called that touching the line penalty I saw the official with the phone/radio/whatever talking to someone, which had to be other officials. I have a hard time believing he's just talking to the GC truck to get the final word on whether there was a rules infraction or not.

Could the reason he didn't notify MP about the slow play penalty until the next tee be because he was on the horn talking it over with other officials on whether to make that call or not? Maybe a case of shooting the messanger. I'm guessing, but unless there's other info out there, you're assuming the worst about this guy without knowing the facts.

[Jimbud]

[quote name='mesquite2' timestamp='1337794884' post='4965286']
I think that it was an outstanding decision & & hope the LPGA keeps it up & I hope that the PGA takes note & does it too. People(including pro's) take WAY too long to hit a shot or putt.
[/quote]


Outstanding decision for who? The LPGA has a huge black eye with over 80% of their fans. I'll guarantee you Sybase Corp. hated the way the tournament ended and wont let that rules official anywhere near their tournament next year. Sounds like from the above mentioned blog the caddies on the LPGA say the use of the stop watch is so subjective because each rules official starts the clock on each shot at different times. My guess is the LPGA offices can't wait for this week to be over. In the end a LPGA player is penalize for slow play that has never had issues with slow play before.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='rustyputterguy' timestamp='1337796898' post='4965524']
"Grandstanding by the official".

Was there an interview or information out there that this guy was just being a cowboy?

When MP called that touching the line penalty I saw the official with the phone/radio/whatever talking to someone, which had to be other officials. I have a hard time believing he's just talking to the GC truck to get the final word on whether there was a rules infraction or not.

Could the reason he didn't notify MP about the slow play penalty until the next tee be because he was on the horn talking it over with other officials on whether to make that call or not? Maybe a case of shooting the messanger. I'm guessing, but unless there's other info out there, you're assuming the worst about this guy without knowing the facts.
[/quote]

Here is a fact I know. The LPGA insists that there is no variance from one official to another who is timing players in a group that is on the clock. If that is the case, then who could he possibly be talking to and what is he talking about? He is the one guy making that decision., period. As opposed to AM's alleged putter infraction, they [i]Had to[/i] check the tape. And it could have been made well before they got to the point where Morgan has nearly pulled her club on the next tee box.

[MelloYello]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1337790887' post='4964918']
[quote name='Cajun83' timestamp='1337790679' post='4964906']
I think the whole "slow play" issue is seriously overblown. Is it really that big of a deal to anyone that this girl took 9 extra seconds? I mean, sure if it is a serious problem (taking multiple minutes) then by all means, penalize. But a few extra seconds? Unless they are going to impliment a "shot clock" I can't agree with timing a players shots. It's unfair to the normally fast player in the group that gets caught "on the clock" because of their pokey competitor.

Furthermore... golf is a slow, methodical game. [b] If you want fast, flip up one channel and watch F1.
[/b]

[/quote]

I sort of agree that the slow play thing is at times overblown as far as the pros go but, it is a problem. Although i see it more as a problem on the men's side than the LPGA. But the watch F1 thing was funny regardless.
[/quote]



Slow play is way overblown. The whole point of (modern) golf is to solve a hugely complex equation that consists of a long list of variables, the wind being one of them.

If watching a professional solve that equation in however long he or she takes is not why you watch then I think you're watching for something else that in my view isn't at the heart of golf as a game.

I enjoy watching deliberate players because it makes me more conscious of all the things that are there to be measured before any particular shot.

I don't understand the initiative of 'Go faster! Go faster!' in terms of watching golf on TV.

Now, those painfully slow golfers we get behind on the course that shoot 90+ that's another story. That's called not giving a hoot about other people. That's not a golf-related issue. Those are the same types that want to hold people back for no reason. They know you want to pass in traffic and don't let you. They continue making noise in a library until you tell them to shut up. The let their dog crap in your yard before you burn their house down.

There are people in the world you see who are bad people.

[mesquite2]

Caddy says to pro player " 160 to the hole, about a 10 mph headwind, playing closer to 170", Player says OK, takes out his 170 club & hits the shot, should take less than 20 seconds all told, if he (or she) wants to hit a knockdown or other shot, that shouldn't take any more time. How many times have we seen a player walk around a 10 foot putt 2 or 3 times, squat behind the ball, squat behind the hole, get back to the ball, take 2 or 3 practice putts & then miss the putt? happens more times than not, what's the point?

[allegrolink]

WHEN did Pressel loose the hole? When her putt dropped and the time was over the per stroke? When Munoz picked up and conceded the hole?

If the hole ended when Pressel's putt went in, why did Munoz putt?

Would the same thing have happened if Pressel had hit the wrong ball on her second shot and noticed it on the green? Would Munoz have still putted?

This matters, IMHO, because Munoz was given the chance to do something that could have cost her the hole too -- like replace her ball in error or touch the line of her putt. Would that have mattered or was the hole over? If it was over, what about the extra practice that was clearly ruled against earlier in the week?

I'm not saying Munoz attempting and missing that putt helped her. Since she missed, it may have hurt her. But if the hole was over, the official should have stepped in before she hit the putt. If the hole was not over, then this rule is badly flawed.

[PedronNiall]

Interesting tidbit on this: Golf Central revealed the PGA tour numbers today as furnished by the PGA themselves.

Average time per shot on PGA:

Tee Shot 43 Seconds
2nd Shot (Par 5) 47 seconds
Going for Green 47 seconds
Laying up 43 seconds
Approach Shots 45 seconds
Around the Green 50 seconds
On the Green 33 seconds

Clearly by the standards used for this tournament even the faster PGA players would be likely to be found in violation. The caveat is that this is done via shotlink so they said that the timing isn't perfect, but odds are there isn't enough variance to make a difference in the 30 seconds per shot allowed. The story being reported was actually just a discussion of slow play for PGA players, but worth noting to see the numbers right after a ruling like this in a rather well-known event on the LPGA.

[rustyputterguy]

[quote name='PedronNiall' timestamp='1337831715' post='4968614']
Interesting tidbit on this: Golf Central revealed the PGA tour numbers today as furnished by the PGA themselves.

Average time per shot on PGA:

Tee Shot 43 Seconds
2nd Shot (Par 5) 47 seconds
Going for Green 47 seconds
Laying up 43 seconds
Approach Shots 45 seconds
Around the Green 50 seconds
On the Green 33 seconds

Clearly by the standards used for this tournament even the faster PGA players would be likely to be found in violation. The caveat is that this is done via shotlink so they said that the timing isn't perfect, but odds are there isn't enough variance to make a difference in the 30 seconds per shot allowed. The story being reported was actually just a discussion of slow play for PGA players, but worth noting to see the numbers right after a ruling like this in a rather well-known event on the LPGA.
[/quote]

I'm betting that the purpose of the clock isn't to get a group to maintain their position, but to catch up to the position they should be at. They would have to play faster than the average time taken to do that...?

[rafal]

Just when one thinks that LPGA has turned it around (and Whanny is doing heckuva' job!) we get major bush-league situation like that in a high profile match of a high-profile tournament.

Then we realize what a terrible organization LPGA is and it makes me sad because I like the players. Compare this to how PGA gets out of their way to actually PROTECT their talent.

Morgan Pressel is one of the few competitive young american gals and to treat her like this is beyond reprehensible.

[ChipDriver]

[quote name='rafal' timestamp='1337851422' post='4969220']
Just when one thinks that LPGA has turned it around (and Whanny is doing heckuva' job!) we get major bush-league situation like that in a high profile match of a high-profile tournament.

Then we realize what a terrible organization LPGA is and it makes me sad because I like the players. Compare this to how PGA gets out of their way to actually PROTECT their talent.

Morgan Pressel is one of the few competitive young american gals and to treat her like this is beyond reprehensible.
[/quote]

So we should give her preferential treatment b/c she's American?

As for competitive - she hasn't won since 2008.

I'm a Pressel fan - but the bottom line - her group was slow, it triggered the rule, and she was the one that got caught. Her mental state of mind was revealed with her comment "I didn't think they would actually call a penalty on us" (I'm paraphrasing).

In short: She knew she was slow - and didn't care b/c she didn't think they'd call it. IMO she can't be surprised.

Hopefully this will speed pace of play. I like the Dustin Johnson, Rickie Fowler, John Daley's of the world....step up and hit it...and move along.

[eric_b]

[quote name='PedronNiall' timestamp='1337831715' post='4968614']
Interesting tidbit on this: Golf Central revealed the PGA tour numbers today as furnished by the PGA themselves.

Average time per shot on PGA:

Tee Shot 43 Seconds
2nd Shot (Par 5) 47 seconds
Going for Green 47 seconds
Laying up 43 seconds
Approach Shots 45 seconds
Around the Green 50 seconds
On the Green 33 seconds

Clearly by the standards used for this tournament even the faster PGA players would be likely to be found in violation. The caveat is that this is done via shotlink so they said that the timing isn't perfect, but odds are there isn't enough variance to make a difference in the 30 seconds per shot allowed. The story being reported was actually just a discussion of slow play for PGA players, but worth noting to see the numbers right after a ruling like this in a rather well-known event on the LPGA.
[/quote]


LPGA is 30 seconds a shot.....if i'm not mistaken, PGA is 40 seconds a shot....with a 20 second grace period....per shot.....i think.

I know for certain that the PGA allows for more time per shot....i'm fairly certain the 40 seconds is right.....so the average is under the penalty time.

Also, you kinda gave those numbers out of context.....they were reported by rex hoggard on golf central....and to paraphrase, he basically said "these times show that they aren't slow by rule standards....and that when someone gets put on the clock they almost always get back on pace."

[allegrolink]

Does anyone know when the hole is over when there is a loss of hole penalty because of time?

If Pressel had taken 90 seconds to tee off, she would have incurred a loss of hole penalty before Minuz even stepped in for her tee shot. Would they have let her play it out? Should they have informed her that if she concedes the hole is over and she wins? What if they let her play and she also took too long? Do those loss of hole penalties cancel out?

May seem like a small thing but if they are planning to enforce this rule, the timing will become an issue at some point. In this event, there was a big deal made of no practice putts after the hole was finished. So what gives?