Proper Length Fitting - how it needs to be done

[TomWishon]

[quote name='greens hit' timestamp='1337993584' post='4979106']
Thanks for the great insight Tom. I had no idea my 45.5" driver was fit for T-Rex.

If I chop off an inch and add enough weigh in the head to add 6 SW points, will the club/shaft behave differently?
[/quote]

After cutting the length shorter by 1" or more, you should add weight to the head to re-establish the swingweight to be at least close to where it was in the original club. Play with the club a few times, hit balls with it a couple of different times and think about the head weight FEEL during the swing, especially when you start the downswing.

When you cut a driver down by 1" or more, if you do NOT add any weight to the head, the club will swing as if it feels like it has very little weight in the head and for most golfers that is BAD because it prompts them to get too quick with the start of the downswing - and it can even cause some golfers to shift more over the top and swing more outside in at the ball.

This pretty much can only be done by adding lead tape to the outside of the head. But most definitely it is FAR BETTER to go shorter with the driver and live with some lead tape on the outer areas of the sides of the head than to not go shorter or to go shorter and ignore re weighting the head.

TOM

[lbhitter]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1337868754' post='4970056']
[quote name='kooch1221' timestamp='1337805584' post='4966276']
I have seen several differing W to F charts around. Some as much as an inch apart for the same measurements. Could you post the chart you use? Also how do you determine when to start using 3/8" gaps instead of the standard 1/2" Thanks for the informative information you post.
[/quote]

Good point and sorry I did not think to post our chart in my original post. My bad there.

[attachment=1178200:wrist to floor.JPG]

This chart does have a lot of work behind it in that I started it with golfer measurements about 20 yrs ago and then have tweaked it off and on over the years from successive measurement and fitting research work with golfers. So from a STARTING POINT FOR COMFORT basis, I think it's pretty much the right one in the industry to follow - again as the STARTING POINT ONLY for length.

TOM
[/quote]

Silly question, but are the lengths indicated "finished" lengths or the length of the shaft before you put the grip on?
Thank you
LB

[Jamboy72]

good question here!

[word]

Great thread. Thanks Tom.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='lbhitter' timestamp='1339765404' post='5098544']

Silly question, but are the lengths indicated "finished" lengths or the length of the shaft before you put the grip on?
Thank you
LB
[/quote]

LB
Sorry I did not see this when you asked - lengths indicated in the wrist to floor chart as starting points for length fitting are always the PLAYING LENGTH OF THE WHOLE GOLF CLUB. Never are they to be confused with a cut shaft length as the shaft is installed in the golf club.

TOM

[AKFLY]

[size=4][color=#000000]Tom,[/color]

[color=#000000]Thank you for taking the time out and putting up a very informative post. Every one is after the distance game. After playing a 45” driver for years I switched to TM driver – been struggling all year with 45.5 and 45.75”. Just chopped to 45” and added weight to my RBZ and plan on trying 44.75” next.[/color]

[color=#000000]I hope your next post (lesson) covers lies – especially for golfers with the above mentioned swing faults.[/color]

[color=#000000]Thanks Again,[/color]
[color=#000000]Andy[/color][/size]

[Dragonfly]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1337793341' post='4965146']
[Let's say we determine your proper 5-iron length from W to F and swing analysis is 38". But let's say we think your best set make up would be hybrids to replace the 3-iron, and 4-iron so the actual irons would start with the 5 iron. And let's say we want to incorporate that 3/8" increment too. So the length set up for the FULL SET OF HYBRIDS + IRONS WOULD GO LIKE THIS. . . .

3 hybrid - 38 3/4"
4 hybrid - 38 3/8"
5 iron - 38
6 iron - 37 5/8 (+1/8 over)
7 iron - 37 1/4 (+1/4 over)
8 iron - 36 7/8 (+3/8 over)
9 iron - 36 1/2 (+1/2 over)
PW - 36 1/8 (+5/8 over)

For the other wedges, we also tend to fit these separate from the numbered irons for length because wedge lengths can be so more personal based on how each golfer uses each of their wedges in terms of % of full swing shots vs % of half/3/4 length shots and pitches/chips. Based on this, we teach clubfitters to sometimes keep with the 3/8 increments from PW to AW to SW or depart from the 3/8 increment between wedges and use 1/4 between PW to AW to SW.

TOM
[/quote]

Given this hypothetical length fitting, and standard head weights, does this not give you a pretty good start on MOI fitting? I admit to major MOI ignorance.

[lbhitter]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1340040811' post='5121948']
[quote name='lbhitter' timestamp='1339765404' post='5098544']
Silly question, but are the lengths indicated "finished" lengths or the length of the shaft before you put the grip on?
Thank you
LB
[/quote]

LB
Sorry I did not see this when you asked - lengths indicated in the wrist to floor chart as starting points for length fitting are always the PLAYING LENGTH OF THE WHOLE GOLF CLUB. Never are they to be confused with a cut shaft length as the shaft is installed in the golf club.

TOM
[/quote]

Tom
Thanks so much for your clear explanation. Is there a "standard" measurement to decrement from "total" length to understand the desired "cut to" length? In other words, if I want the finished club to be 38" in length, at what length should I cut the shaft to allow for the extra distance the the grip cap adds?

Thanks in advance for your time and sage counsel.
r
LB

[TomWishon]

[quote name='lbhitter' timestamp='1342180581' post='5267334']
Is there a "standard" measurement to decrement from "total" length to understand the desired "cut to" length? In other words, if I want the finished club to be 38" in length, at what length should I cut the shaft to allow for the extra distance the the grip cap adds?
[/quote]

There is no standard for what the cut shaft length is for golf clubs. The cut shaft length depends on a dimension of the clubhead called the "Bottom of Bore to Ground" measurement. Clubheads can be designed with pretty much any hosel length and any bore depth and any sole radius that the company or designer would ordain. And it is these three things in a clubhead that determines its bottom of bore to ground dimension.

Hence no standard for this, and no way to accurately judge what the cut shaft length is for any club without making these measurements individually.

In clubmaking, you do not really worry about the cut shaft length. In clubmaking, the important length parameter is the PLAYING LENGTH of the club(s). So once we choose a playing length for a club for a golfer, the shaft is tip trimmed properly, installed in the head and then cut from the butt end to achieve that desired playing length. At that point, there is no reason to know or think about what the cut shaft length is.

Hope this helps, but if I did not cover things clearly to fully answer your question, please let me know,

TOM

[mikpga]

[sub]Good information. Wrist to Floor is a good starting point.[/sub]

[sub]Proper Length should encourage...[/sub]

[sub]- Good Posture[/sub]
[sub]- Encourage Ceteredness of Contact[/sub]

[lbhitter]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1342188113' post='5267892']
[quote name='lbhitter' timestamp='1342180581' post='5267334']
Is there a "standard" measurement to decrement from "total" length to understand the desired "cut to" length? In other words, if I want the finished club to be 38" in length, at what length should I cut the shaft to allow for the extra distance the the grip cap adds?
[/quote]

There is no standard for what the cut shaft length is for golf clubs. The cut shaft length depends on a dimension of the clubhead called the "Bottom of Bore to Ground" measurement. Clubheads can be designed with pretty much any hosel length and any bore depth and any sole radius that the company or designer would ordain. And it is these three things in a clubhead that determines its bottom of bore to ground dimension.

Hence no standard for this, and no way to accurately judge what the cut shaft length is for any club without making these measurements individually.

In clubmaking, you do not really worry about the cut shaft length. In clubmaking, the important length parameter is the PLAYING LENGTH of the club(s). So once we choose a playing length for a club for a golfer, the shaft is tip trimmed properly, installed in the head and then cut from the butt end to achieve that desired playing length. At that point, there is no reason to know or think about what the cut shaft length is.

Hope this helps, but if I did not cover things clearly to fully answer your question, please let me know,

TOM
[/quote]

Tom
Again, thank you for taking the time to answer my question. Think I am making this too complicated, but here is where I am still a little fuzzy.

Lets assume I am using taper tip shafts for a set of irons, and I am dry fitting the shafts. Lets assume I am dry fitting a 5 iron taper tip steel shaft, what length to I mark it for butt trim to get to a 38" total playing length? Assume I using a club ruler on a work bench. Do I mark the butt end at 37.75", because the grip once installed will add .25"? In other words, how much does a grip generally add to the length of a club? In the past I have just "guesstimated" at ~.25".

I am a hobbiest who only builds clubs for myself. I am very appreciative of your feedback.

Respectfully
LB

[friggingruven]

Thanks so much for this post Tom.

[fastnhappy]

Yes - about 1/4" is what a grip cap will add. Obviously some grips are slightly different, but nobody's going to notice the difference of 1/16"

[TomWishon]

[quote name='lbhitter' timestamp='1342195472' post='5268704']

Lets assume I am using taper tip shafts for a set of irons, and I am dry fitting the shafts. Lets assume I am dry fitting a 5 iron taper tip steel shaft, what length to I mark it for butt trim to get to a 38" total playing length? Assume I using a club ruler on a work bench. Do I mark the butt end at 37.75", because the grip once installed will add .25"? In other words, how much does a grip generally add to the length of a club? In the past I have just "guesstimated" at ~.25".

[/quote]

The thickness of the end cap in different brands and models of grips can and does vary. So if you want to be PERFECT in your final lengths, you will have to take one of the grips of the model/brand you plan to use and cut it open to measure the grip cap thickness perfectly. Or you carefully measure the length of a club to the end of the bare cut shaft, then install the grip and measure the length with the grip on, and then subtract the two to know the cap thickness. Otherwise, you guesstimate this. Typically a slip on rubber grip will have an end cap thickness of 1/8 to 1/4 inch.

But as I said, you can find slip on grips out there with a 1/8" thickness up to even 3/8" for a few grips. So if you want to be perfect, you check this cap thickness before.

TOM

[roll - gybe]

Tom- your threads are excellent. Over the last year, I have intuitively found the need to shorten my woods (44.375 driver). Now I am swinging faster and hitting it longer!

In your system, how do you add weight to the head? It seems you must have a much better system than my lead tape masterpieces.

I would be interested one day in having my set built properly- as you say from scratch.

On a side note, I had always believed the maxim of playing the softer shaft. It wasn't until a fitter put me in an X that I saw my ball flight flatten out and carry my ball.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='roll - gybe' timestamp='1342461229' post='5286280']
Tom- your threads are excellent. Over the last year, I have intuitively found the need to shorten my woods (44.375 driver). Now I am swinging faster and hitting it longer!

In your system, how do you add weight to the head? It seems you must have a much better system than my lead tape masterpieces.

[/quote]

Thanks very much for the kind comments. Just trying to share a bit of what I have learned in 30+ yrs of digging into this stuff.

There really is no good way to add weight to a head that was never made to accept any extra weight in the first place. With solid body clubheads like irons, you're looking at a tip weight in the shaft if you care to pull the shaft, and/or lead tape on the head.

With the hollow body heads like drivers, woods and hybrids, you also have the tip weight in the shaft option. In addition, it is possible to drill a little hole in the sole, tap it with a thread or two, inject sticky glue, cover the hole by screwing in a plastic dowel and shearing it off flush to the sole. The elements like the sticky glue and little plastic rods are available from some clubmaking supply companies.

While this operation sounds great because it allows the glue (weight) to be put inside the head, it is most definitely a procedure that is "easier said than done". But some of the more experienced clubmakers who are really good with their bench skills do this.

The other access to the inside of the head for injecting a sticky glue to add weight is down the hosel and through the little hole at the bottom of the hosel on most hollow body heads. Most, not all tho. And this orifice into the inside of the head. Another one that is easier said than done.

Hence in the end, it is so much easier to just live with lead tape on the outside of the head. I know, to many it looks like crap. but it works very well and is so much easier to do than these other steps I described.

Things like this are precisely why some of us who design heads for custom clubmaking do design our heads with a way to add weight to the head.

Thanks,
TOM

[roll - gybe]

So Tom, do you design driver or fairway heads for shorter ultimate lengths (heavier heads)?

As for looking like crap, I come from a sailing background. Fast boats look like crap!

[ottonegolf]

As always Tom's post are outstandings .

I'm really intrigued about this shaft lenght theory and I want to try it, but I really don't know my specs.

I'm 5,6 short and my wrist to floor is 32,8 inches , looking at Tom's lenght table, I should be playing a driver at 43,5, but it seems to me a bit extreme.....

My driver is a Razr fit 10,5 withn a Kai'li 60 stiff at stock lenght of 45,5 : before to cut my Kai'li, I'd like to shorten the stock shaft that came with the Razr fit (aldila Rip NV stiff that has the same weight of the Kai'li 60 grams ) .

Before to go down to 43,5 I'd like to shorten the shaft of 1 inch and go to 44,5: my question is how much weight I have to add to the head to mantain the same swingweight (that fits me well) ?

I just bought a set of OptiFit weights so I can add weight very easily and without lead tape .

I'd like to have an answer from the clubmaking experts .

Many thanks .

[TomWishon]

[quote name='roll - gybe' timestamp='1342485548' post='5288812']
So Tom, do you design driver or fairway heads for shorter ultimate lengths (heavier heads)?

As for looking like crap, I come from a sailing background. Fast boats look like crap!
[/quote]


All my driver, wood, hybrid, iron and wedge designs are created with at least one internal weight chamber, some with two if the shape and style of the head lends itself to doing a second weight chamber. So all my head designs will allow the addition of a minimum of 9g internally, some up to 15g internally. This definitely allows custom assembly at shorter lengths when needed and still to be able to achieve normal ranges of swingweight at those shorter lengths.

Really, in a world in which golfers can vary such that there is a real need for a wide range in length fitting, it's the only logical, common sense way to design clubheads.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='ottonegolf' timestamp='1342700335' post='5307206']
As always Tom's post are outstandings .

I'm really intrigued about this shaft lenght theory and I want to try it, but I really don't know my specs.

I'm 5,6 short and my wrist to floor is 32,8 inches , looking at Tom's lenght table, I should be playing a driver at 43,5, but it seems to me a bit extreme.....

Before to go down to 43,5 I'd like to shorten the shaft of 1 inch and go to 44,5: my question is how much weight I have to add to the head to mantain the same swingweight (that fits me well) ?

[/quote]

Please go back and re read my original post. The length indicated by the W to F chart IS ONLY THE STARTING POINT for final length determination. You have to then analyze the golfer's swing characteristics such as tempo, transition force, swing path, point of release and overall golf athletic ability to know if the final length could be longer than what the W to F indicates or not. W to F is NOT, NOT the final length determination factor.

If you do cut the driver down by ONE INCH, you should start by adding back a minimum of 8 grams to the head. That will get the swingweight to be 2 points lower than it was at its original length. See how that feels in terms of headweight during the swing. Then you can experiment to go up a little more from there, if you feel that you cannot quite feel the headweight's presence enough in the swing.

What you are looking for is enough headweight feel down there at the end of the shaft that you do not have any tendency to get too quick with your transition or tempo, but not so much that you feel you have to make an extra effort to swing the club down to the ball.

TOM

[ottonegolf]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1342707202' post='5308050']
[quote name='ottonegolf' timestamp='1342700335' post='5307206']
As always Tom's post are outstandings .

I'm really intrigued about this shaft lenght theory and I want to try it, but I really don't know my specs.

I'm 5,6 short and my wrist to floor is 32,8 inches , looking at Tom's lenght table, I should be playing a driver at 43,5, but it seems to me a bit extreme.....

Before to go down to 43,5 I'd like to shorten the shaft of 1 inch and go to 44,5: my question is how much weight I have to add to the head to mantain the same swingweight (that fits me well) ?

[/quote]

Please go back and re read my original post. The length indicated by the W to F chart IS ONLY THE STARTING POINT for final length determination. You have to then analyze the golfer's swing characteristics such as tempo, transition force, swing path, point of release and overall golf athletic ability to know if the final length could be longer than what the W to F indicates or not. W to F is NOT, NOT the final length determination factor.

If you do cut the driver down by ONE INCH, you should start by adding back a minimum of 8 grams to the head. That will get the swingweight to be 2 points lower than it was at its original length. See how that feels in terms of headweight during the swing. Then you can experiment to go up a little more from there, if you feel that you cannot quite feel the headweight's presence enough in the swing.

What you are looking for is enough headweight feel down there at the end of the shaft that you do not have any tendency to get too quick with your transition or tempo, but not so much that you feel you have to make an extra effort to swing the club down to the ball.

TOM
[/quote]


Many thanks Tom, I realy appreciate your efforts on WRX to educate us .

Unfortunately I'm Italian, and here being properly fit is very difficult, I just bought yours 775 Hybryd 18* and 21* because they were bendable ( I play my irons 3* flat) but I couldn't find anybody to bend them..... so sad.

i've tried in the past to get fitted, but the guy only wanted to sell me a whole new bag !! In september I'm turning 50, and maybe I'll make myself a gift and find a good clubfitter in Italy: do you have someone to reccomend ?

Many thanks again.

Angelo

[Flat4Boxer]

I need to follow this for future reference.

[Spoon]

Tom,

Thanks for the insights, I have a club making shop, I was taught by Niimi San, I think you know him.
Anyways I am quite confused on the increments passed the 5iron. Is there a more straightforward
Way of getting the increments? Some are 3/4 all the way down to 3/8ths??? This bit is the most
Confusing to me..

Also what do you generally think of guys that normally choke down their clubs ? I am 6'
I will measure my WTF tomorrow. Been playing 5 iron 37.75 for years and will choke
Down 1/4 inch for comfort but I grip normal on 9 and pw and sometimes feel that I could
Play a longer length club.

My wedges are all same length based on pw. Your thoughts?

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Spoon' timestamp='1343058173' post='5334176']

Thanks for the insights, I have a club making shop, I was taught by Niimi San, I think you know him.
Anyways I am quite confused on the increments passed the 5iron. Is there a more straightforward
Way of getting the increments? Some are 3/4 all the way down to 3/8ths??? This bit is the most
Confusing to me..
[/quote]

The most usual length increments are 1/2" for irons, from the #3 to the PW. There are times when a 3/8" increment between irons is better than 1/2" between irons.

Examples - 1) a person who measures for longer lengths but who also is not a very good golfer - using 3/8" increments allows you to keep the longer iron or hybrids with low loft to not be too long, but then as you go down through the set, with 3/8" increments the irons become progressively longer and longer as loft increases. Many people who measure to need longer lengths in the irons can get by easily with less length increase in the low loft clubs as long as they get more length in the higher loft clubs. This is because we all crouch or bend over more progressively with our 7, 8, 9, wedges than we do with our 3, 4, 5. So going 3/8" increments allows such golfers to be more comfortable over the ball with the higher loft irons.

2) golfers who have back pain who are also not very good golfers. Same logic as above explanation only this one helps the back discomfort golfer not have to bend over as much, to be able to remain a little more erect down through the set so they have less stress on the back. And actually for back pain golfers, going with 1/4" between irons is not a bad idea at all.

3) when you want to build sets to have a Matched MOI instead of matched swingweight, using a 3/8" increment is always better for sure to use to achieve the same MOI for each iron in the set.

Equivalent in woods to a 3/8" increment in irons is 3/4".

[quote name='Spoon' timestamp='1343058173' post='5334176']
Also what do you generally think of guys that normally choke down their clubs ? I am 6'
I will measure my WTF tomorrow. Been playing 5 iron 37.75 for years and will choke
Down 1/4 inch for comfort but I grip normal on 9 and pw and sometimes feel that I could
Play a longer length club.

My wedges are all same length based on pw. Your thoughts?
[/quote]

Golfers who grip down all the time do get to the point that they are used to it and won't do things any different, regardless if they change the actual assembled length of their clubs. I remember reading a story about Anthony Kim about that - someone built him a set at a shorter length from the logic that he would no longer have to grip down on the club. Anthony gets the clubs and immediately grips down the same amount on every club - because he was just used to having that much of the grip sticking out his hands.

For such golfers, you fit their length just as if they do not grip down on the club using the principles I stated at the beginning of this thread. You build ONE test club, probably a 7 iron, and you ask them to hit shots on their own. Then you ask them if they still felt comfortable over the ball and during the swing with that iron or whether they felt they had to crouch down or bend over any more because of their gripping down tendency. Sometimes you would built the clubs slightly longer just to allow for their gripping down habit. Most times not though.

WEdge lengths today has become either a personal issue for each golfer or you simply choose a length increment between wedges, use that, and forget about it.

What I mean is that some golfers are VERY attuned to wanting their wedge lengths to be at various increments based on their experience over years of playing. Asking the golfer if they have specific wedge length increment requirements is how to detect this in the first place. If they say no they don't or stare back at you with no answer, then the decision is up to you.

Most typical is to make the PW to be 1/2" (or 3/8 if you use 3/8 increments through the set) shorter than the 9 iron. Then the gap wedge (if they have one) would be -1/4" from the PW. The SW then would be -1/4" from the gap wedge which would put it -1/2" from the PW. And if there were a LW, it would be -1/4" from the SW.

As I said, these are not set in stone. Some clubmakers prefer to go -1/2" between all wedges. Some like to keep them all the same like it was in the "old days" of the 60s and 70s. There is no real right or wrong about wedge length other than it all gets based on the lengths you ordained for the golfer for their numbered irons.

TOM

[webber]

What kind of lie angle progression do you commonly see when going in 3/8" increments?

I notice that most companies with 1/2" differences in between clubs lengthwise tend to always go up .5* in lie from the 3-PW.

Any idea why Ping goes .75* in lie between clubs? It goes against the theory of more upright long irons and flatter short irons. Ping's end up opposite. Flat long irons and upright short irons.

[Spoon]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1343153264' post='5343178']
[quote name='Spoon' timestamp='1343058173' post='5334176']
Thanks for the insights, I have a club making shop, I was taught by Niimi San, I think you know him.
Anyways I am quite confused on the increments passed the 5iron. Is there a more straightforward
Way of getting the increments? Some are 3/4 all the way down to 3/8ths??? This bit is the most
Confusing to me..
[/quote]

The most usual length increments are 1/2" for irons, from the #3 to the PW. There are times when a 3/8" increment between irons is better than 1/2" between irons.

Examples - 1) a person who measures for longer lengths but who also is not a very good golfer - using 3/8" increments allows you to keep the longer iron or hybrids with low loft to not be too long, but then as you go down through the set, with 3/8" increments the irons become progressively longer and longer as loft increases. Many people who measure to need longer lengths in the irons can get by easily with less length increase in the low loft clubs as long as they get more length in the higher loft clubs. This is because we all crouch or bend over more progressively with our 7, 8, 9, wedges than we do with our 3, 4, 5. So going 3/8" increments allows such golfers to be more comfortable over the ball with the higher loft irons.

2) golfers who have back pain who are also not very good golfers. Same logic as above explanation only this one helps the back discomfort golfer not have to bend over as much, to be able to remain a little more erect down through the set so they have less stress on the back. And actually for back pain golfers, going with 1/4" between irons is not a bad idea at all.

3) when you want to build sets to have a Matched MOI instead of matched swingweight, using a 3/8" increment is always better for sure to use to achieve the same MOI for each iron in the set.

Equivalent in woods to a 3/8" increment in irons is 3/4".

[quote name='Spoon' timestamp='1343058173' post='5334176']
Also what do you generally think of guys that normally choke down their clubs ? I am 6'
I will measure my WTF tomorrow. Been playing 5 iron 37.75 for years and will choke
Down 1/4 inch for comfort but I grip normal on 9 and pw and sometimes feel that I could
Play a longer length club.

My wedges are all same length based on pw. Your thoughts?
[/quote]

Golfers who grip down all the time do get to the point that they are used to it and won't do things any different, regardless if they change the actual assembled length of their clubs. I remember reading a story about Anthony Kim about that - someone built him a set at a shorter length from the logic that he would no longer have to grip down on the club. Anthony gets the clubs and immediately grips down the same amount on every club - because he was just used to having that much of the grip sticking out his hands.

For such golfers, you fit their length just as if they do not grip down on the club using the principles I stated at the beginning of this thread. You build ONE test club, probably a 7 iron, and you ask them to hit shots on their own. Then you ask them if they still felt comfortable over the ball and during the swing with that iron or whether they felt they had to crouch down or bend over any more because of their gripping down tendency. Sometimes you would built the clubs slightly longer just to allow for their gripping down habit. Most times not though.

WEdge lengths today has become either a personal issue for each golfer or you simply choose a length increment between wedges, use that, and forget about it.

What I mean is that some golfers are VERY attuned to wanting their wedge lengths to be at various increments based on their experience over years of playing. Asking the golfer if they have specific wedge length increment requirements is how to detect this in the first place. If they say no they don't or stare back at you with no answer, then the decision is up to you.

Most typical is to make the PW to be 1/2" (or 3/8 if you use 3/8 increments through the set) shorter than the 9 iron. Then the gap wedge (if they have one) would be -1/4" from the PW. The SW then would be -1/4" from the gap wedge which would put it -1/2" from the PW. And if there were a LW, it would be -1/4" from the SW.

As I said, these are not set in stone. Some clubmakers prefer to go -1/2" between all wedges. Some like to keep them all the same like it was in the "old days" of the 60s and 70s. There is no real right or wrong about wedge length other than it all gets based on the lengths you ordained for the golfer for their numbered irons.

TOM
[/quote]

thanks tom! well i checked my WTF =35" and based on your chart i should be gaming a 38" 5 iron at the very least.
i am currently using standard 37.75" and 1/2" increments all the way. my question is at what increments would be
a safe bet ?

reason why i ask is i am ordering some clubs and will specify the finished lengths.

got this from an earlier post of yours. will be gaming 3-pw set.

3 hybrid - 38 3/4"
4 hybrid - 38 3/8"
5 iron - 38
6 iron - 37 5/8 (+1/8 over)
7 iron - 37 1/4 (+1/4 over)
8 iron - 36 7/8 (+3/8 over)
9 iron - 36 1/2 (+1/2 over)
PW - 36 1/8 (+5/8 over)

is this a safe bet of increments in "general" for someone who games a 38" 5 iron with other factors and comfort considered?
getting expensive shafts so want to do this absolutely right.

carlo

[bulls9999]

Just so I can get these numbers straight to exactly what they are referring to, when you say driver length 44-inches or whatever, do you mean the shaft length from end of grip to the hosel, or do you mean the entire length, from the end of grip to the bottom of the sole/heel?... same with irons? (I'm presuming the latter as many drivers can have variable length/minimal hosels). Thanks, great discussion.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Spoon' timestamp='1343180496' post='5347038']

thanks tom! well i checked my WTF =35" and based on your chart i should be gaming a 38" 5 iron at the very least.
i am currently using standard 37.75" and 1/2" increments all the way. my question is at what increments would be
a safe bet ?

reason why i ask is i am ordering some clubs and will specify the finished lengths.

got this from an earlier post of yours. will be gaming 3-pw set.

3 hybrid - 38 3/4"
4 hybrid - 38 3/8"
5 iron - 38
6 iron - 37 5/8 (+1/8 over)
7 iron - 37 1/4 (+1/4 over)
8 iron - 36 7/8 (+3/8 over)
9 iron - 36 1/2 (+1/2 over)
PW - 36 1/8 (+5/8 over)

is this a safe bet of increments in "general" for someone who games a 38" 5 iron with other factors and comfort considered?
getting expensive shafts so want to do this absolutely right.

carlo
[/quote]

Primary reasons that a golfer should use 3/8" Increments on the irons:

1. People who just simply feel they are bending over more or crouching down too much and are just plain less comfortable over the ball with their higher loft irons. People who may have been fighting a little case of coming up off the ball with the higher loft irons, hitting a higher percentage of thin shots with these clubs.

2. People who measure for or need longer length irons but who are not that good of a ball striker. It is always true that the longer the length AND THE LOWER THE LOFT, the harder the club will be to hit. So for these golfers, you can keep the lower loft irons from being too much longer yet give them more comfort over the ball down through the set by using 3/8" increments - and the longer lengths on the higher loft irons are not harder to hit because these irons all progressively are increasing in loft, which automatically makes them easier to hit.

3. People who are having the clubs built to be matched for MOI and not swingweight matched. 3/8" increments works better to allow all the irons to end up at the same MOI than half inch increments.

Your "math" on the lengths of the set is correct. Now all you have to be sure to do is to specify what swingweight you want for each club because if you are ordering these clubs from an OEM company, this is going to be well outside their area of normality for building clubs. So you better nail everything down right from the get go to be sure you get precisely what you want.

Might not be a bad idea to consider working with a custom clubmaker on something like this to be sure of getting what you want.

TOM

[TomWishon]

[quote name='bulls9999' timestamp='1343231794' post='5350908']
Just so I can get these numbers straight to exactly what they are referring to, when you say driver length 44-inches or whatever, do you mean the shaft length from end of grip to the hosel, or do you mean the entire length, from the end of grip to the bottom of the sole/heel?... same with irons? (I'm presuming the latter as many drivers can have variable length/minimal hosels). Thanks, great discussion.
[/quote]

We're always talking the PLAYING LENGTH of the clubs. While companies can vary a little bit on how they actually measure the playing length, the most common designation goes like this - Place the club so the center of the sole of the clubhead is in contact with a hard surface floor. WHile holding the club in this position so neither the toe or heel tilts up, slide a 48" ruler in behind the shaft. Length is then measured in inches + any fraction from the floor up to the SIDE EDGE of the end of the grip cap.

There are gauges made which duplicate this procedure so it all can be done on a bench top. But this above is THE most correct and usual method for playing length measurement of golf clubs.

TOM

[kwooten31]

Great thread, had to pull it back up...