Proper Length Fitting - how it needs to be done

[JLo_73]

Older thread but stumbled upon this a couple days ago and it got me thinking. I am 6'4" with 37.5" WTF but been struggling with my iron ball striking. Playing Steelfibers i95X at ~3/4" over Adams standard. SW was pretty high and was toying with idea of putting Tour Lock in.

Noticed that whenever i swing friends clubs who play standard length that I can feel the club so much better. Went to a shorter driver recently and seemed to improve my ball striking so it got me thinking if i should do the same with irons despite my height.

yesterday, I cut down my 6 iron by 1/2", went to the range and wow my ball striking was so much better. After reading Tom's suggestion of 3/8" increments, I decided to try a slightly modified version such that if I can go back, it's not as bad. Essentially, my 5 iron is 1/8" over length down to PW which is 1/2" over length. Still trying to decide what to do with GW and SW since I like the feel of them shorter but know that I on full shots, I am might be reaching too much.

Putting into play over the weekend and interested to see what happens...

[SadTrombone]

Would one keep a roughly 1/2 degree increment in lie angle using length increments like this or would the lie angle increment be altered as a result?

[TLT_Dan]

[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1419975225' post='10661809']
Older thread but stumbled upon this a couple days ago and it got me thinking. I am 6'4" with 37.5" WTF but been struggling with my iron ball striking. Playing Steelfibers i95X at ~3/4" over Adams standard. SW was pretty high and was toying with idea of putting Tour Lock in.

Noticed that whenever i swing friends clubs who play standard length that I can feel the club so much better. Went to a shorter driver recently and seemed to improve my ball striking so it got me thinking if i should do the same with irons despite my height.

yesterday, I cut down my 6 iron by 1/2", went to the range and wow my ball striking was so much better. After reading Tom's suggestion of 3/8" increments, I decided to try a slightly modified version such that if I can go back, it's not as bad. Essentially, my 5 iron is 1/8" over length down to PW which is 1/2" over length. Still trying to decide what to do with GW and SW since I like the feel of them shorter but know that I on full shots, I am might be reaching too much.

Putting into play over the weekend and interested to see what happens...
[/quote]

At your height - the way I would consider your wedge play - is have them built so you do not have to crouch - but on reduced length shots, you need to choke down and play the shot from the position you feel right at.

[TLT_Dan]

[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1419989551' post='10662893']
Would one keep a roughly 1/2 degree increment in lie angle using length increments like this or would the lie angle increment be altered as a result?
[/quote]

If you grip your clubs - all - at full length - then with the 1/2 degree lie change you will notice that the long irons become too to up. This is an error close to industry wide. With a 3/8 length increment and a 1 degree lie change / club you will be much closer to having a consistent lie when addressing at full length. many players find their long irons too long - and their short irons too short. This can correct that with improved contact and improved directional control.

[SadTrombone]

Interesting.

This is a really great thread. Lots of cool info, and as someone who is interested in learning about building and fitting, I can't say "thank you" enough.

*edit*

That's going to have wedges in the 67 degree area. Seems pretty upright, no?

[TLT_Dan]

[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1419993260' post='10663219']
Interesting.

This is a really great thread. Lots of cool info, and as someone who is interested in learning about building and fitting, I can't say "thank you" enough.

*edit*

That's going to have wedges in the 67 degree area. Seems pretty upright, no?
[/quote]

I do find 67 to be a little extreme (some however do like this), but lengthening the club will allow you to play at less than 67. The combination of both length and lie is what keeps you in your best address position, and both are directly related.

[JLo_73]

[quote name='TLT_Dan' timestamp='1419993166' post='10663211']
[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1419989551' post='10662893']
Would one keep a roughly 1/2 degree increment in lie angle using length increments like this or would the lie angle increment be altered as a result?
[/quote]

If you grip your clubs - all - at full length - then with the 1/2 degree lie change you will notice that the long irons become too to up. This is an error close to industry wide. With a 3/8 length increment and a 1 degree lie change / club you will be much closer to having a consistent lie when addressing at full length. many players find their long irons too long - and their short irons too short. This can correct that with improved contact and improved directional control.
[/quote]

follow up question to your post; are you suggesting that 1/2 degree lie increments is or isn't good for 3/8" iron length increments. Please elaborate. I have mine currently at standard lie which is about 1/2 degree increments...

[JLo_73]

I was thinking that I would want the longer irons to be more upright to accommodate the more standard length and shorter irons would be upright but not as much. I might be totally off on this thinking but it would seem that the lies won't fluctuate too much from 5 to PW???

[TLT_Dan]

[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420345733' post='10682565']
[quote name='TLT_Dan' timestamp='1419993166' post='10663211']
[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1419989551' post='10662893']
Would one keep a roughly 1/2 degree increment in lie angle using length increments like this or would the lie angle increment be altered as a result?
[/quote]

If you grip your clubs - all - at full length - then with the 1/2 degree lie change you will notice that the long irons become too to up. This is an error close to industry wide. With a 3/8 length increment and a 1 degree lie change / club you will be much closer to having a consistent lie when addressing at full length. many players find their long irons too long - and their short irons too short. This can correct that with improved contact and improved directional control.
[/quote]

follow up question to your post; are you suggesting that 1/2 degree lie increments is or isn't good for 3/8" iron length increments. Please elaborate. I have mine currently at standard lie which is about 1/2 degree increments...
[/quote]

In general
1/2 degree change in lie and 1/2 inch difference in length will result in the toe being too upright on the long irons.
If you change this to 1/2 degree change in lie and 3/8 inch difference in length the lie will be less upright and in these long irons - which will be a slight improvement.
If you go to 1 degree lie change and 3/8 length difference the combination of length and lie will produce clubs that sit more consistently at address. The long irons will no longer be toe upright and you will get a more consistent address position.

[url="http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/Length_Lie.html"]http://www.danscusto...Length_Lie.html[/url]

This has a simulation of what I am trying to describe.

[JLo_73]

[quote name='TLT_Dan' timestamp='1420423816' post='10686803']
[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420345733' post='10682565']
[quote name='TLT_Dan' timestamp='1419993166' post='10663211']
[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1419989551' post='10662893']
Would one keep a roughly 1/2 degree increment in lie angle using length increments like this or would the lie angle increment be altered as a result?
[/quote]

If you grip your clubs - all - at full length - then with the 1/2 degree lie change you will notice that the long irons become too to up. This is an error close to industry wide. With a 3/8 length increment and a 1 degree lie change / club you will be much closer to having a consistent lie when addressing at full length. many players find their long irons too long - and their short irons too short. This can correct that with improved contact and improved directional control.
[/quote]

follow up question to your post; are you suggesting that 1/2 degree lie increments is or isn't good for 3/8" iron length increments. Please elaborate. I have mine currently at standard lie which is about 1/2 degree increments...
[/quote]

In general
1/2 degree change in lie and 1/2 inch difference in length will result in the toe being too upright on the long irons.
If you change this to 1/2 degree change in lie and 3/8 inch difference in length the lie will be less upright and in these long irons - which will be a slight improvement.
If you go to 1 degree lie change and 3/8 length difference the combination of length and lie will produce clubs that sit more consistently at address. The long irons will no longer be toe upright and you will get a more consistent address position.

[url="http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/Length_Lie.html"]http://www.danscusto...Length_Lie.html[/url]

This has a simulation of what I am trying to describe.
[/quote]

So your thought is that if I have 3/8" increments that I should be at 1 degree lie increments to be in a better position. Assuming SW is 65 degrees than this would suggest that my 5 iron would be 59 degrees which appears to be 2.25 degrees weak??

[TLT_Dan]

[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420429617' post='10687367']
[quote name='TLT_Dan' timestamp='1420423816' post='10686803']
[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420345733' post='10682565']
[quote name='TLT_Dan' timestamp='1419993166' post='10663211']
[quote name='minitour' timestamp='1419989551' post='10662893']
Would one keep a roughly 1/2 degree increment in lie angle using length increments like this or would the lie angle increment be altered as a result?
[/quote]

If you grip your clubs - all - at full length - then with the 1/2 degree lie change you will notice that the long irons become too to up. This is an error close to industry wide. With a 3/8 length increment and a 1 degree lie change / club you will be much closer to having a consistent lie when addressing at full length. many players find their long irons too long - and their short irons too short. This can correct that with improved contact and improved directional control.
[/quote]

follow up question to your post; are you suggesting that 1/2 degree lie increments is or isn't good for 3/8" iron length increments. Please elaborate. I have mine currently at standard lie which is about 1/2 degree increments...
[/quote]

In general
1/2 degree change in lie and 1/2 inch difference in length will result in the toe being too upright on the long irons.
If you change this to 1/2 degree change in lie and 3/8 inch difference in length the lie will be less upright and in these long irons - which will be a slight improvement.
If you go to 1 degree lie change and 3/8 length difference the combination of length and lie will produce clubs that sit more consistently at address. The long irons will no longer be toe upright and you will get a more consistent address position.

[url="http://www.danscustomgolfshop.com/Length_Lie.html"]http://www.danscusto...Length_Lie.html[/url]

This has a simulation of what I am trying to describe.
[/quote]

So your thought is that if I have 3/8" increments that I should be at 1 degree lie increments to be in a better position. Assuming SW is 65 degrees than this would suggest that my 5 iron would be 59 degrees which appears to be 2.25 degrees weak??
[/quote]

Yes, that will make your lies all fall into order (pretty close anyway). This is assuming that your SW is correct for you at this length and lie.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420429617' post='10687367']

So your thought is that if I have 3/8" increments that I should be at 1 degree lie increments to be in a better position. Assuming SW is 65 degrees than this would suggest that my 5 iron would be 59 degrees which appears to be 2.25 degrees weak??
[/quote]

Just so you have the vernacular correct, lie angles are either more upright or more flat from what one considers to be standard for lie angles, and loft angles are either weaker (higher) or stronger (lower) in relation to whatever one recognizes as loft standards.

[lkanon]

Tom, I am planning to buy some fairway woods and possibly a driver in the near future. I completely subscribe to your belief that woods are being built too long for the average golfer. I tested out a club (Mizuno JPX-850 3 wood) and fell in love with it. It is built a bit long, and my preferences are generally shorter. I was choking up on the grip about an inch or so and had great results.

I was planning to order the club direct from Mizuno to custom specs. My question - do you think I should order it pre-built to a shorter length, or order it at stock lengths and choke up (given that I liked the results)? Also, do OEMs automatically adjust the head weight for a shorter shaft, or do I need to give them swing weight parameters? I did see on their fitting forms that they allow you to customize swing weight.

Any thoughts are appreciated!

[lkanon]

[color=#282828]Tom, I am planning to buy some fairway woods and possibly a driver in the near future. I completely subscribe to your belief that woods are being built too long for the average golfer. I tested out a club (Mizuno JPX-850 3 wood) and fell in love with it. It is built a bit long, and my preferences are generally shorter. I was choking up on the grip about an inch or so and had great results. [/color]

[color=#282828]I was planning to order the club direct from Mizuno to custom specs. My question - do you think I should order it pre-built to a shorter length, or order it at stock lengths and choke up (given that I liked the results)? Also, do OEMs automatically adjust the head weight for a shorter shaft, or do I need to give them swing weight parameters? I did see on their fitting forms that they allow you to customize swing weight. [/color]


[color=#282828]Any thoughts are appreciated![/color]


[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1420566690' post='10695489']
[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420429617' post='10687367']
So your thought is that if I have 3/8" increments that I should be at 1 degree lie increments to be in a better position. Assuming SW is 65 degrees than this would suggest that my 5 iron would be 59 degrees which appears to be 2.25 degrees weak??
[/quote]

Just so you have the vernacular correct, lie angles are either more upright or more flat from what one considers to be standard for lie angles, and loft angles are either weaker (higher) or stronger (lower) in relation to whatever one recognizes as loft standards.
[/quote]

[TomWishon]

[quote name='lkanon' timestamp='1420570568' post='10695899']
[color=#282828]Tom, I am planning to buy some fairway woods and possibly a driver in the near future. I completely subscribe to your belief that woods are being built too long for the average golfer. I tested out a club (Mizuno JPX-850 3 wood) and fell in love with it. It is built a bit long, and my preferences are generally shorter. I was choking up on the grip about an inch or so and had great results. [/color]

[color=#282828]I was planning to order the club direct from Mizuno to custom specs. My question - do you think I should order it pre-built to a shorter length, or order it at stock lengths and choke up (given that I liked the results)? Also, do OEMs automatically adjust the head weight for a shorter shaft, or do I need to give them swing weight parameters? I did see on their fitting forms that they allow you to customize swing weight. [/color]


[color=#282828]Any thoughts are appreciated![/color]
[/quote]

I am very sorry but I know nothing about how the big golf companies handle the swingweight of their custom length requests. I have been told by many who order custom from the big companies that most of them are very limited in what swingweight range they can offer because their clubheads are all designed in the first place to be built to one series of standards including one standard swingweight at one standard length and one standard shaft weight. Most of them tend to not design their heads with any type of weight addition port or capability since the heads are created chiefly to be built to one series of standard specs to be sold off the racks.

So you'll just have to dig very deeply with the company to try to find out what their swingweight ranges are for various custom lengths and then hold them to that if you get the clubs.

[trhode]

[quote name='lkanon' timestamp='1420570568' post='10695899'][color=#282828]Tom, I am planning to buy some fairway woods and possibly a driver in the near future. I completely subscribe to your belief that woods are being built too long for the average golfer. I tested out a club (Mizuno JPX-850 3 wood) and fell in love with it. It is built a bit long, and my preferences are generally shorter. I was choking up on the grip about an inch or so and had great results. [/color]

[color=#282828]I was planning to order the club direct from Mizuno to custom specs. My question - do you think I should order it pre-built to a shorter length, or order it at stock lengths and choke up (given that I liked the results)? Also, do OEMs automatically adjust the head weight for a shorter shaft, or do I need to give them swing weight parameters? I did see on their fitting forms that they allow you to customize swing weight. [/color]


[color=#282828]Any thoughts are appreciated![/color]


[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1420566690' post='10695489']
[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420429617' post='10687367']
So your thought is that if I have 3/8" increments that I should be at 1 degree lie increments to be in a better position. Assuming SW is 65 degrees than this would suggest that my 5 iron would be 59 degrees which appears to be 2.25 degrees weak??
[/quote]

Just so you have the vernacular correct, lie angles are either more upright or more flat from what one considers to be standard for lie angles, and loft angles are either weaker (higher) or stronger (lower) in relation to whatever one recognizes as loft standards.
[/quote][/quote]

Mizuno is really good at matching a particular SW in their iron builds. They probably will not change the sw on a 3 wood though. I would recommend ordering it stock and finding a local club builder to work with to get the length and feel correct for you. The new JPX850 fairways have a hot melt hole on the bottom that can be drilled out to access the inside of the head.

[lkanon]

[quote name='trhode' timestamp='1420576693' post='10696575']
[quote name='lkanon' timestamp='1420570568' post='10695899'][color=#282828]Tom, I am planning to buy some fairway woods and possibly a driver in the near future. I completely subscribe to your belief that woods are being built too long for the average golfer. I tested out a club (Mizuno JPX-850 3 wood) and fell in love with it. It is built a bit long, and my preferences are generally shorter. I was choking up on the grip about an inch or so and had great results. [/color]

[color=#282828]I was planning to order the club direct from Mizuno to custom specs. My question - do you think I should order it pre-built to a shorter length, or order it at stock lengths and choke up (given that I liked the results)? Also, do OEMs automatically adjust the head weight for a shorter shaft, or do I need to give them swing weight parameters? I did see on their fitting forms that they allow you to customize swing weight. [/color]


[color=#282828]Any thoughts are appreciated![/color]


[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1420566690' post='10695489']
[quote name='J LO ' timestamp='1420429617' post='10687367']
So your thought is that if I have 3/8" increments that I should be at 1 degree lie increments to be in a better position. Assuming SW is 65 degrees than this would suggest that my 5 iron would be 59 degrees which appears to be 2.25 degrees weak??
[/quote]

Just so you have the vernacular correct, lie angles are either more upright or more flat from what one considers to be standard for lie angles, and loft angles are either weaker (higher) or stronger (lower) in relation to whatever one recognizes as loft standards.
[/quote][/quote]

Mizuno is really good at matching a particular SW in their iron builds. They probably will not change the sw on a 3 wood though. I would recommend ordering it stock and finding a local club builder to work with to get the length and feel correct for you. The new JPX850 fairways have a hot melt hole on the bottom that can be drilled out to access the inside of the head.
[/quote]

I (think I) was able to answer the question myself. I called Mizuno and they said that they do adjust swing weight in Fairway Woods. I am likely to order a 5 wood and a T5 wedge.

[boska]

After a couple of hours reading and digesting...this thread is indeed gold! Thanks Tom.

[sixtysevensixtyseven]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1337788032' post='4964630']
I've seen a number of threads asking about proper length on clubs. I've also seen a number of posts in which people say that a Wrist to Floor measurement is bad. I felt it was time to offer the facts based on sound fitting research and fitting experience to help more golfers make the right length fitting decisions.

First of all, height alone is in NO WAY your indicator for how long your clubs should be. Our ability to be COMFORTABLE over the ball and through the swing with our clubs is a product of the relationship of the clubs' lengths to our height + ARM LENGTH + our learned/proper stance and posture for our swing plane. We never want to have our clubs force us into a stance or posture that is not proper for how our swing plane needs to be to gain our highest level of swing repeatability and proper swing path and correct position as we rotate through the ball.

We have to have a starting point for length determination. [b]Height + arm length can act as a starting point for comfort in our stance and posture, followed closely by a careful analysis of the swing characteristics which either make it easier or more difficult to control a longer length.[/b] From all that you then come up with the best length that fits the golfer for comfort and which also tries hard to not make the club length more difficult to control.

People have criticized a wrist to floor measurement chart for length as being worthless. If a W to F chart is used for final length decisions, I agree it is wrong to do that. But a well thought out wrist to floor measurement chart is very valuable to offer a [b]STARTING POINT ONLY[/b] FROM WHICH A SWING ANALYSIS IS CAREFULLY DONE TO THEN COME UP WITH THE FINAL BEST LENGTHS FOR THE GOLFER.

I remember years ago fitting a number of the San Antonio Spurs players and former players. George Gervin was 6'7" but after all our analysis ended up with a set of irons in which the 5 iron was +3/4"and with the lengths between the rest of the irons set up in 3/8" increments - not the usual 1/2" that all companies use in their irons.

These club lengths fit him perfectly. Why? In addition to his 6'7 height, George had very long arms, which is not all the unusual among very tall people. He was also not that good of a player, with an over the top move and a little bit of an early release - both of which are swing elements that make it far more difficult to control a longer length. So the +3/4" on the 5 iron was the shortest length with which he could still have comfort over the ball for his height + arm length + stance position so that we could give him the best chance at controlling the club. We then chose 3/8" increments down from there so that he gradually got a little more over length down through the set, but with the clubs that with their progressively higher loft became easier to hit anyway.

When we teach length fitting to clubmakers, we teach it like this:

1. Start with the Wrist to Floor measurement to come up with a [b]STARTING POINT ONLY[/b] for the driver and 5 iron lengths. [b]This is NOT the final length[/b]. This is ONLY an indication of what is the shortest length with which this golfer can achieve COMFORT with so he/she is not crouching over or altering his stance and posture too much.

2. Next analyze the golfer's swing path, transition force, swing tempo, point of release, overall golf athletic ability. Swing Path - Outside in, Square or Inside Out; Transition and Tempo - Forceful/quick/fast/aggressive or Average force/quickness or smooth/passive; Point of Release - Early in the downswing, Midway or Late; Golf Athletic Ability - Good player with good control of the club, Average or less skilled player in terms of athletic ability.

3. Swing moves like an over the top/outside in path, strong forceful transition, fast tempo, early release and poor golf athletic ability are all swing characteristics that make it far, far more difficult to control a longer length. To contrast, a square to inside path, smooth transition, smoother tempo, later release and good athletic ability are all swing characteristics that make it easier to control a longer length.

4. If the golfer has 3 or more of the "difficult" swing characteristics you never make the final lengths longer than what the W to F chart says - and you can always alter the wood to wood length increments down to 3/4" and the iron to iron length increments down to 3/8" or even 5/16" to give the golfer more comfort down through the set. In fact, we teach almost every time you have a golfer who does need longer than std lengths for comfort, always use a 3/8" or 5/16" increment between the irons.

5. if the golfer has 1 or 2 of the "difficult" swing characteristics, you can go up to but not more than +1/2 longer than what the W to F chart says. But you do not go 1" longer than the W to F chart says unless the golfer has 3-4 or more of these "EASY" swing characteristics. Also, there is rarely ever any need to go more than +1/2" [b]over what the W to F chart says for irons[/b], especially when you have the 3/8" or 5/16" increments between irons to help you give the golfer more comfort over the higher numbered irons anyway.

6. Remember too - the only golfers who will experience an increase in clubhead speed from a longer length are those with a progressively later and later wrist-c o c k release. For golfers with an early to midway release, going longer not only brings about far more lack of control and off center hits, but it never brings higher clubhead speed. There is nothing wrong with experimenting with longer lengths to get more distance - but it really only works for golfers with an inside out to square path, who have smoother more controlled tempo with a late release. If you don't have most to all these swing characteristics and you do not have an inordinately high wrist to floor measurement, men should not be playing a driver longer than 44 to 44.5 and women no longer than 42.5 to 43.

Do length fitting this way, and you will never have length getting in the way of a golfer playing to the best of their ability.

Right now in my opinion based on years of fitting research, within the woods, 90% of all men and 99% of all women who play men's and women's wood lengths off the rack are using driver lengths which are WAY too long and fairway wood lengths which are a little too long. These standard wood lengths of 46-46.5" drivers and 43.5-44" 3-woods (with women's only -1" to that) are truly getting in the way of a HUGE number of golfers being able to play to the best of their ability.

Golf is not about hitting 1 of 10 solid, far and in play. It's about hitting the highest percentage on center and in play, even if you have to give up 10 yds.

In irons, the modern lengths are not quite as bad as the drivers/woods because over the past 30 yrs, iron lengths have only "grown" by 1/2" while driver lengths have grown by (cough) 3". But in the woods and chiefly in drivers, it really is unfortunate that so many golfers could be hitting the driver so much better if they only would go to aGOOD clubmaker to be fit to a much shorter driver length than what they bought off the rack.

Also, it is much better to be fit with clubs that are built from scratch to the proper lengths than to cut down existing clubs. The reason is because most golfers need headweight to be added to a cut down club to get the swingweight and head feel back up to where it properly matches the golfer's swing tempo/timing/rhythm. Cutting down clubs and NOT re-weighting the head typically leads to a lack of head feel and from it, an increase in off center hits and more tendency to swing over the top and outside in.

As in all cases of custom fitting, it is always best to go find a good, experienced independent custom clubfitter/clubmaker to work with. Far better than to try to fit yourself or go to a big box retail store or pro shop.

TOM
[/quote]

I couldn't agree more with using W2F only as a starting point and using other methods to adjust or confirm thereafter. I've fit literally thousands of people ranging from 36 handicaps all the way to tour players while I was working for a major OEM. I would cringe when someone would walk up with a set of gold color coded Pings +1" because their W2F measurement said that's what they needed. As soon as they addressed the ball with their hunched over posture I knew what I was about to tell them was going to go against everything they've heard in the past.

As far as increments go you really need to take set configuration into consideration before deciding what you're looking to accomplish. As a fitter I also considered skill level. I found that a lot of times better players were more sensitive to swingweight than small increments of length.

So here is my skill level and set composition. I'm a legit +2 or +3 and I play roughly 140 rounds/year including 15 or so tournaments. I hit the ball pretty far so I value my scoring clubs and like tighter gaps low in my bag. I carry 4 wedges and go up to 4 iron. I use 1/4" gaps up to my 9 iron and then go to half inch gaps from there. My specs look like this: 60-35.00", 56-35.25", 52-35.50", P-35.75", 9-36.00", 8-36.50", 7-37.00", 6-37.50", 5-38.00", 4-38.50". Those are the gaps that work for me and achieve the results I'm looking for.

No matter what gaps you use make sure to set your lie angles for each club independently after you set the lengths. I start with setting the lie angles close to where I think they are going to end up and then fine tuning is the last step of the entire process.

Whatever theory you consider keep an open mind. I don't fit people for clubs anymore but the most frustrating part was dealing with someone who wouldn't keep an open mind about their specs because they've always played a certain length etc.

[t4t3r]

Length related question - when ordering a set of irons from the manufacturer at a length different from standard, say 0.5" as an example, do they take that into account when building the clubs as it relates to the shafts flex (would they soft or hardstep, for example, to get to the correct flex)?

[TomWishon]

[quote name='t4t3r' timestamp='1421949484' post='10798019']
Length related question - when ordering a set of irons from the manufacturer at a length different from standard, say 0.5" as an example, do they take that into account when building the clubs as it relates to the shafts flex (would they soft or hardstep, for example, to get to the correct flex)?
[/quote]

Nope

[buckhorn70]

Tom....... Great info here!

I am 6'1" with a wrist to floor of 38.5 I have broad shoulders . I am a strong player and hit the ball pretty good distance. I currently play Ping irons 3/4" over and silver dot( 3.5 up right), I feel these irons are close but not on the money. I play to a 5 handicap also. What would be your suggestion in my case? Also, I do feel hunched on my shorter irons. Thanks

[TomWishon]

[quote name='buckhorn70' timestamp='1423831609' post='10944579']
Tom....... Great info here!

I am 6'1" with a wrist to floor of 38.5 I have broad shoulders . I am a strong player and hit the ball pretty good distance. I currently play Ping irons 3/4" over and silver dot( 3.5 up right), I feel these irons are close but not on the money. I play to a 5 handicap also. What would be your suggestion in my case? Also, I do feel hunched on my shorter irons. Thanks
[/quote]

38.5 W to F would start out at 38 3/4" for a 5 iron length on my fitting length reference, so if one considers 38" as std for a 5 iron, that would be +3/4". And if you do feel hunched, crouched, bent over too much with the high loft irons, going with 3/8" increments in the set would take care of that and definitely allow you to be more comfortable over the ball with the higher loft irons. Once you have the lengths down, then you go into a dynamic lie fitting test to determine the lies you need for each club.

[buckhorn70]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1423871924' post='10948767']
[quote name='buckhorn70' timestamp='1423831609' post='10944579']
Tom....... Great info here!

I am 6'1" with a wrist to floor of 38.5 I have broad shoulders . I am a strong player and hit the ball pretty good distance. I currently play Ping irons 3/4" over and silver dot( 3.5 up right), I feel these irons are close but not on the money. I play to a 5 handicap also. What would be your suggestion in my case? Also, I do feel hunched on my shorter irons. Thanks
[/quote]

38.5 W to F would start out at 38 3/4" for a 5 iron length on my fitting length reference, so if one considers 38" as std for a 5 iron, that would be +3/4". And if you do feel hunched, crouched, bent over too much with the high loft irons, going with 3/8" increments in the set would take care of that and definitely allow you to be more comfortable over the ball with the higher loft irons. Once you have the lengths down, then you go into a dynamic lie fitting test to determine the lies you need for each club.
[/quote]

I see in your initial post, you sometimes go up to a 1/2" longer than the W to F chart........When and what determines when you do this?

[pingfool]

[quote name='TomWishon' timestamp='1423871924' post='10948767']
[quote name='buckhorn70' timestamp='1423831609' post='10944579']
Tom....... Great info here!

I am 6'1" with a wrist to floor of 38.5 I have broad shoulders . I am a strong player and hit the ball pretty good distance. I currently play Ping irons 3/4" over and silver dot( 3.5 up right), I feel these irons are close but not on the money. I play to a 5 handicap also. What would be your suggestion in my case? Also, I do feel hunched on my shorter irons. Thanks
[/quote]

38.5 W to F would start out at 38 3/4" for a 5 iron length on my fitting length reference, so if one considers 38" as std for a 5 iron, that would be +3/4". And if you do feel hunched, crouched, bent over too much with the high loft irons, going with 3/8" increments in the set would take care of that and definitely allow you to be more comfortable over the ball with the higher loft irons. Once you have the lengths down, then you go into a dynamic lie fitting test to determine the lies you need for each club.
[/quote]

ditto or augmenting Tom
ping fits for length first - agree with +3/4 based on WTF
fit lie based on sole tape impact - toe go up - heel go flat (I don't like face tape it doesn't account for OTT - imo)
also can fit lie based on shot shape - or preffered shot shape

[TomWishon]

[quote name='buckhorn70' timestamp='1423918353' post='10951217']

I see in your initial post, you sometimes go up to a 1/2" longer than the W to F chart........When and what determines when you do this?
[/quote]

Various things - 1) golfer ability; 2) golfer comfort over the ball for his specific posture/stance/preference; 3) golfer may say he does want more distance as a priority more than any other game improvement goal, and so if he has a later to late release which says he could get more distance from a longer length, then if he is better than avg and has more of an inside to square path, we go a little longer.

[Rudders]

[quote name='Nick West' timestamp='1337953880' post='4975966']
Tom, I've had this question rolling around in my head for a long time....maybe you can help. In my opinion, it is a critical question regarding fitting, that no one seems to address, and it's this; When fitting a player, do you assemble a combination of components that fits the player's current swing (with all it's swing flaws), or do you assemble a club that is suited to meet a player's future potential?

As a club maker/fitter myself, I am constantly presented with this ethical dillema. I am extremely reluctant to witness a fundamental swing flaw, and then assemble a club to accomodate it, when the player would benefit MUCH more by spending their money getting lessons, and then coming to me. I feel that offering a club that accomodates a players swing flaws, is really just a crutch, and really does more to divert him or her from their path to their full potenial.

Now, the way I've dealt with this up until now, is just to be completely up front, point out all options, and let them decide whether or not they wish to address a swing flaw. If they don't want to address it (which is fine), then I'll do my best to accomdate them in terms of building a club that will suit their needs. But the bottom line is, I think they need to know. I see far too much reliance on component combinations around here, and I'm apt to think that this is probably the case regarding the general public.

For instance, if you're fitting a healthy young man, and he's pulling the ball, and hitting it out to the left, there is an ethical dillema there. One fitter might fit him in an open-faced head, with a shaft that's too stiff to promote a lower trajectory, and a shot that is more prone to go right....and some fitters will leave it at that..."Fixed the problem!!!"....but thave they? All they've done is create a situation in which this player will have to continuously reinforce bad habits just to make the ball go straight. He might not be on an optimal swing plane...he might be reducing his potential for SS/distance. In essense, you['ve encouraged this player to stop pursuing a better swing, for the false promise that a better swing can be acheived through the club. You've effectively diverted this man from his full potential.

This topic was brought up here recently in regards to changing lie to affect shot dispersion. If you do that, and remove the ability of the club to play neutral, then you remove the players ability to ever work the ball in the other direction...and that doesn't seem right to me.

Now, obviously, there are some exceptions, some players might be older, or maybe they're just weekend warriors, and have no desire to build/rebuild their swing from the ground up...and that's totally fine...I get that. But I think this is teh aspect of club fitting that is a real grey area, and for some reason, it seems like the issue is polarized...where fitters will feel one way or the other.

What is your method of addressing this issue?
[/quote]Honesty and integrity always works for me, but sometimes people don't see it that way. I got canned from a golf chain because I did this. The customer was happy to get that advice; the store wasn't because in their minds, it's always about the sale. Didn't want to hear that studies show that a satisfied customer tells 4 people about his positive experience while a dissatisfied one tells ten others. They couldn't understand that. I'm better off.

[RookieBlue7]

Tom,
Do you not combine height with the wrist to floor measurement? Reason I ask is the chart I've used for years incorporates height. If not, do you not use it due to stance posture differences?

[TomWishon]

[quote name='RookieBlue7' timestamp='1427842874' post='11256459']
Tom,
Do you not combine height with the wrist to floor measurement? Reason I ask is the chart I've used for years incorporates height. If not, do you not use it due to stance posture differences?
[/quote]

Wrist to floor measurement is far more of the length determination for basic comfort over the ball but we will factor in height to a small contribution, though not nearly as much as the W to F.

Also, we now only use W to F measurements for the starting point for iron length determination. W to F and height are simply not appropriate to length fitting determination for drivers and woods. For drivers/woods, length fitting is all about what length can the golfer control with consistency based on his swing characteristics of path, release, tempo plus his athletic and golf ability. Iron length fitting does have to include height + w to f as a very key element because irons are much shorter than woods and from that, their length has to be metered against the golfer's comfort over the ball for achieving best swing consistency and repeatibility while maintaining spine angle through the ball.

[TomWishon]

[quote name='Rudders' timestamp='1427840871' post='11256213']
Honesty and integrity always works for me, but sometimes people don't see it that way. I got canned from a golf chain because I did this. The customer was happy to get that advice; the store wasn't because in their minds, it's always about the sale. Didn't want to hear that studies show that a satisfied customer tells 4 people about his positive experience while a dissatisfied one tells ten others. They couldn't understand that. I'm better off.
[/quote]

That's too bad but it isn't the first time I have heard or seen someone let go from a major retail golf store for just plain trying to help the golfers the best they could. From 93-01 when I was a VP at Golfsmith, while my responsibility was to handle all product development and run the component division, I did have to sit in on many of the retail chain meetings and planning sessions. And boy, did I ever get my education on how big chain retailing is done in this industry!

And it is so sad. Over distribution by the OEMs of pre-built, standard made clubs forces club sales to be nothing more than a commodity. That tosses the MSRP of the product out the window and forces discounting to get the sale. That means there is not enough margin to pay the floor sales staff much more than minimum wage, forces the stores to forego proper training, and compels the staff to spend the shortest amount of time with a customer to make the sale. And it's gotten worse as many consumers are trained to go to the store to hit test the clubs they are interested in, then to head home and hunt on line for the lowest price. Add in the incentive of some stores to push some models more than others because the inventory is higher or the store got a better deal on those models, and it all means that the customers don't get the best treatment/service while the staff gets bitter from being made to feel less important.

I remember getting so mad about all this in a meeting convened to improve morale and customer service when every suggestion was canned for costing too much that I mentioned they get giant vending machines that could hold sets of golf clubs and accept credit cards and just let everyone go. Boy did I get the hateful stares for that one.

The direction of big box retailing in this business is a very big reason I said good bye at GS and went on my own. And even though I make a lot less money now than I did as an officer there, like you say about your situation I too am better off for it.