What machine is this?

practicetee · September 28, 2012

Pictures have been added over in the Deal or No Deal Thread

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/728429-adams-pro-vst-hybrid-please-give-your-opinion-on-this-one/page__st__150__gopid__5709887#entry5709887"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/728429-adams-pro-vst-hybrid-please-give-your-opinion-on-this-one/page__st__150__gopid__5709887#entry5709887[/url]

Stinger82 · September 28, 2012

surfnturf would you care to apologize to practicetee now?

Howard_Jones · September 28, 2012

[quote name='lowround' timestamp='1348758916' post='5704281']
[quote name='ml43' timestamp='1348314789' post='5677351']
[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1348294866' post='5677073']
First of all, I play my driver, woods and hybrids all 1 or 2 degrees open. The simplest way IMO to understand it is to think of it like a wedge.
When you bend a wedge strong, you brace the head and bend the shaft backwards. When you bend a wedge week, you brace the head and bend the shaft forwards.

The only real difference is that a driver, wood or hybrid will have a wider and flatter sole. They will sit in what's known in the biz as a "natural soled position". When you look directly down on the club with shaft straight in front of you, the head and face will sit in this naturally soled position either square, open or closed. What you should look at is the grooves in relation to the shaft. In a squared face club they will be perfectly aligned.
[/quote]

1. you need to stop reading the Taylormade brochures

2. loft/lie/face angle of any club is not measured while the club is resting on the ground or any other flat surface.

3. mitchell and other loft/lie machines are used to adjust loft/lie, not measure them. most of them are 1-2 degrees off from the factory, hence why tour vans measure on one machine( I.e. the green machine) adjust on another(mitchell) and then remeasure again(I.e. the green machine).

4. if you think loft and face angle are indepent from one another on a golf club(re-read #1).

5. you cannot accurately measure face angle without either clamping the head or the shaft. other wise you are measuring a single variable based on multiple independent variables.
[/quote]

I agree clamping the shaft makes the measurement difficult. At GigaGolf we have the Maltby device to measure face angle. It takes a lot of practice to be able to get consistent results, in part, because you have to let the club "sole" naturally at it's intended lie before you lock in the shaft. It's a tricky thing to do on the Maltby gauge. Ask 3 first timers to do it and you'll get 3 different answers. The factories don't have it nailed either. You really need to work to get the hosel positioned where you feel it should be. If anyone knows of a gauge that is drop dead accurate for face angle please mention and you'll receive our sincerest gratitude.

Robert Wilson
[/quote]

Mitchell bending machines like the Signature does measure face angle correctly, and there is NO sole involved, because it should not be involved in this measurement. Face angle is a question of face to shaft, NOT face to sole, so any device that involves "grounding" the club head cant do this right.

SurfinTurf · September 29, 2012

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1348878422' post='5714491']
[Mitchell bending machines like the Signature does measure face angle correctly, and there is NO sole involved, because it should not be involved in this measurement. Face angle is a question of face to shaft, NOT face to sole, so any device that involves "grounding" the club head cant do this right.
[/quote]

Thanks Howard for contributing to this thread. You Sir are a [b]genuine[/b] [size=5][b]GURU[/b][/size].

What do you make of these photos?:

[attachment=1365515:post-27080-0-91226800-1348833353.jpg]

[attachment=1365515:post-27080-0-91226800-1348833353.jpg]

[attachment=1365519:post-27080-0-33998200-1348833344.jpg]

[attachment=1365521:post-27080-0-40953600-1348833327_thumb.jpg]

[attachment=1365523:post-27080-0-58162400-1348833350_thumb.png]

[attachment=1365525:post-27080-0-91226800-1348833353.jpg]

SurfinTurf · September 29, 2012

[quote name='Pudgelewis' timestamp='1348901200' post='5715889']
^ Did the magic machine in the OP not involve the club being soled? You didn't have a problem using those pics to conclusively decide the thing was shut. Now that we've got half-decent pictures of the thing you're going to start finding all kinds of other crap to try to prove your ridiculous point. Only an idiot would continue to carry on this stance when they have no first-hand knowledge of the specific club in question.

When you sent me a half-civilized PM I thought you were at least a somewhat reasonable person, but it's getting ridiculous now.

And as for Practicetee's claim that it's going in the bag, have you never hit a club once and not liked it and then picked it up again at another point and changed your mind?
[/quote]

I'm paying you due respect Pudge. Call me an idiot if you like.

I just don't think we're at a conclusive place yet. The Seller has provided a pic of the lie angle at 60 degrees. However we're not dicussing lie angle. The lie angle could have come off the Adams tour van at absolutly anything.

And in answer to your question, the club is clearly not soled. It's hovering.

I know you're looking for resolution here. As am I Bro. Let's keep it cool.

I'm happy to discuss things civilly through PM's or elsewhere.

Pudgelewis · September 29, 2012

[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1348903083' post='5715929']
[quote name='Pudgelewis' timestamp='1348901200' post='5715889']
^ Did the magic machine in the OP not involve the club being soled? You didn't have a problem using those pics to conclusively decide the thing was shut. Now that we've got half-decent pictures of the thing you're going to start finding all kinds of other crap to try to prove your ridiculous point. Only an idiot would continue to carry on this stance when they have no first-hand knowledge of the specific club in question.

When you sent me a half-civilized PM I thought you were at least a somewhat reasonable person, but it's getting ridiculous now.

And as for Practicetee's claim that it's going in the bag, have you never hit a club once and not liked it and then picked it up again at another point and changed your mind?
[/quote]

I'm paying you due respect Pudge. Call me an idiot if you like.

I just don't think we're at a conclusive place yet. The Seller has provided a pic of the lie angle at 60 degrees. However we're not dicussing lie angle. The lie angle could have come off the Adams tour van at absolutly anything.

And in answer to your question, the club is clearly not soled. It's hovering.

I know you're looking for resolution here. As am I Bro. Let's keep it cool.

I'm happy to discuss things civilly through PM's or elsewhere.
[/quote]

I deleted that post before I noticed you replied because after reading it again I realized that you weren't necessarily saying anything about the club being soled or not, just replying to the guys info.

Anyways, are you saying in the original pics in this thread that the club is clearly hovering? I don't see that at all.

All I wanted from you all along was to admit that there isn't any conclusive evidence based on what the OP in the other thread said, but it certainly seemed like you had your mind made up before.

SurfinTurf · September 29, 2012

[quote name='Pudgelewis' timestamp='1348905140' post='5715957']
[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1348903083' post='5715929']
[quote name='Pudgelewis' timestamp='1348901200' post='5715889']
^ Did the magic machine in the OP not involve the club being soled? You didn't have a problem using those pics to conclusively decide the thing was shut. Now that we've got half-decent pictures of the thing you're going to start finding all kinds of other crap to try to prove your ridiculous point. Only an idiot would continue to carry on this stance when they have no first-hand knowledge of the specific club in question.

When you sent me a half-civilized PM I thought you were at least a somewhat reasonable person, but it's getting ridiculous now.

And as for Practicetee's claim that it's going in the bag, have you never hit a club once and not liked it and then picked it up again at another point and changed your mind?
[/quote]

I'm paying you due respect Pudge. Call me an idiot if you like.

I just don't think we're at a conclusive place yet. The Seller has provided a pic of the lie angle at 60 degrees. However we're not dicussing lie angle. The lie angle could have come off the Adams tour van at absolutly anything.

And in answer to your question, the club is clearly not soled. It's hovering.

I know you're looking for resolution here. As am I Bro. Let's keep it cool.

I'm happy to discuss things civilly through PM's or elsewhere.
[/quote]

I deleted that post before I noticed you replied because after reading it again I realized that you weren't necessarily saying anything about the club being soled or not, just replying to the guys info.

Anyways, are you saying in the original pics in this thread that the club is clearly hovering? I don't see that at all.

All I wanted from you all along was to admit that there isn't any conclusive evidence based on what the OP in the other thread said, but it certainly seemed like you had your mind made up before.
[/quote]

I'm glad you posted again Pudge. BTW, I can't PM you. You're maxed out.

Please take a closer look. I could [b][i]LIMBO[/i][/b] undernearth this sole.

[attachment=1365543:post-115210-0-96980800-1348899849.jpg]

iain8328 · September 29, 2012

So, even if the club is resting in a persons hands, they can't move their hand to manipulate the shaft? I have never dealt with practicetee, nor do I know him. But this whole ordeal was absurd.

With practicetees pictures, you can clearly see the face angle in relation to the shaft is open.

Where is Frankie? He had the most insightful posts of anyone. :taunt:

iain8328 · September 29, 2012

Also, pardon me for not wanting to sift through this crap again, but wasn't it pointed out that the best way to measure was for the club not to be soled?

Arizonalefty59 · September 29, 2012

I feel like every single post these days turns into one big argument.....

Pudgelewis · September 29, 2012

[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1348905763' post='5715971']
I'm glad you posted again Pudge. BTW, I can't PM you. You're maxed out.

Please take a closer look. I could [b][i]LIMBO[/i][/b] undernearth this sole.

[attachment=1365543:post-115210-0-96980800-1348899849.jpg]
[/quote]

I'll have to check my inbox. I'm just now seeing the most recent pics from the laptop instead of my phone. Does appear that the club isn't soled. I was talking about it being soled in the pics from the mystery machine, though. Does that prove it was measured correctly since that's what Howard said above about properly measuring it?

Not that it matters much, but regarding the specs pic from Adams' website being for the XTD...look behind the drop down menu, it clearly says "Idea Pro A12 hybrid".

Howard_Jones · September 29, 2012

[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1348899935' post='5715863']
[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1348878422' post='5714491']
[Mitchell bending machines like the Signature does measure face angle correctly, and there is NO sole involved, because it should not be involved in this measurement. Face angle is a question of face to shaft, NOT face to sole, so any device that involves "grounding" the club head cant do this right.
[/quote]
Thanks Howard for contributing to this thread. You Sir are a [b]genuine[/b] [size=5][b]GURU[/b][/size].
What do you make of these photos?:
[/quote]

Now please, im NO GURU, im just a club fitter who dont mind sharing what ive learned from people like Tom Wishon and Ed Mitchell who are GURU's, but im not.

I am not familiar with the tool on this photos, but a part of the tool seems to be missing.
On the toe side, there is a "track" on the sole plate where i think there should have been a device to align against the face to measure face angle, but i cant say that for sure since i dont know this tool at all.

When it comes to measuring face angle, ive been in contact with my school mentor Ed Mitchell at Mitchell Golf Equipment Institute, where i asked for help to find a gauge for loft/face/lie on woods. My Mitchell signature can only mesure face and lie angle, i cant measure loft with it, so i was in the need for a gauge for that purpose.

I was asking about 2 specific tools, none of them made by Mitchell since they dont have a tool for this. (if they did i would have gotten it). The gauges i asked about is Auditor model 010100
[url="http://www.golfmechanix.com/Items.asp?Pdts=01&CatDescription=Golf%20club%20head%20surveying%20gauges"]http://www.golfmecha...urveying gauges[/url]

and the other is Golf instruments model M310
[url="http://www.golfinstruments.com/golf/gauge.html"]http://www.golfinstr...golf/gauge.html[/url]

Here is what Ed Mitchel has to say about them.

"The Golf Instruments is a better gauge then the Auditor. Both are only good for measuring loft and lie of irons and putters. They can measure effective playing loft of metal woods but not face angle. Metals and hybrid face pitch are designed in relation to the sole thus producing a loft angle stated on the club. The true playing loft is the pitch of the face to the shaft plane.

The problem we have with the other specification gauges is they do not properly read face angle. You can square the face while holding the shaft in a spec gauge and get a loft reading to the shaft plane but if you sole the club you are reading a face angle that has been created by the relationship of the sole.

The proper way to measure face angle is to square and center the face in a horizontal attitude removing the sole influence, then measure the shaft plane to the square face. That is what we do with our Steelcub® Signature Angle Machine.

Specifications gauges are primarily only good for measuring loft and lie angles on irons. If you truly want to measure face angles you will need our Signature machine."

I hope that explains it ?

joekelli · September 29, 2012

[quote name='Snufles' timestamp='1348264222' post='5675441']
[quote name='Pudgelewis' timestamp='1348263866' post='5675415']
[quote name='SurfinTurf' timestamp='1348262335' post='5675327']
Just to elaborate there are two ways to measure how open or closed a club is. You can measure face angle or shaft lean. Both are equally valid and would yield the same results.
[/quote]

Let me elaborate.

See first post.
[/quote]

Someone has manipulated the club to show it as being closed. The face isn't even sitting square to the block.

[attachment=1355793:Not even close.jpg]
[/quote]

This is the angle closer to where you would actually address the ball at and it looks "open" to me. With the other club, once you lean it forward into the normal address position it would then be closed.

Franzen · October 21, 2012

Why did it stop here?
Where are you Surfin?

Ri_Redneck · October 21, 2012

It stopped here because most of the posters in this thread and the other one are only partially right. Face angle on a wood club is a relationship between the face and the shaft AND ALSO a relationship between the face and the sole. If you don't believe me, try changing the relationship between the face and shaft and NOT have it effect the sole or vice versa. Howard Jones is correct in his explanation of how[url="http://www.mitchellgolf.com/STEELCLUB-Signature-Angle-Machine.html"] the Mitchell Signature machine[/url] is used to measure face angle. From the words of Ed Mitchell himself, "The head is placed (clamped) with the face square and centered in a horizontal attitude, removing the sole influence, then measure the shaft plane (angle) to the square face. He is measuring the relationship between the shaft and the clubface and the shaft IS NOT CLAMPED.

OTOH, [url="http://www.golfworks.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_GW1040"]Ralph Maltby has a machine that also measures face angle[/url]. Notice in the picture that it has a clamp for the shaft. Incidentally, his machine measures the relationship between the face and the sole. Here is the definition of face angle from Maltby's club building bible "Golf Club Design, Fitting, Alteration & Repair" Chapter 35 page 343: "The angle of the face to the grounded sole line with the shaft (hole) perpendicular to the line of flight." LowRound stated in post# 56 that he actually USES the Maltby machine and said that it REQUIRES the club to be allowed to "sole" naturally before the shaft is clamped. This corresponds exactly with Maltby's definition. As you can see in the picture of the machine, it has a gauge that placed against the face of the club, once it is properly soled and clamped, to measure the angle of the face.

I think everyone here will agree that Ed Mitchell and Ralph Maltby are equally respected in the golf world. Their two devices for measuring face angle perform the job in completely different ways. IMHO, this means that face angle can be accurately measured using either relationship, but not both.

BTW, the device in the OP is a crudely designed face angle measuring device patterned VERY roughly after Ed Mitchell's description of how to measure face angle. The block that is touching the face is the forward part of the clamp. It SHOULD have a V shaped edge that fits into a single grove on the face of the club. This clamps the clubhead with the face square and centered and the markings on the gauge measure the angle created by the shaft. I have seen these and if they are made correctly and calibrated using clubs with accurately known face angles, they can be accurate. Now, is the face actually square? Many say no and I can't really tell since I can't see the grooves. Judging from the face, it LOOKS open. BUT, the OP says that the crown slopes toward the heel, if so (I don't know cause I don't have one of these clubs), then it COULD give the same impression that we see in the pic. A closeup would have removed all doubt!

The machine used by PracticeTee is much like the Maltby machine. IF the club was allowed to sole naturally prior to being clamped, then his measurement is most likely correct. This was not stated in this or the other thread and only he can tell us if this was the case.

Now, the last thing I would like to mention is that the term "Face Angle" today is not always what it was 10 yrs ago. The term face angle is used every time someone posts Trackman data. This is a DYNAMIC face angle measurement and should not be confused with the actual face angle built into the clubhead by the manufacturer. You could easily have a closed dynamic face angle when using a clubhead with an actual open face angle. It happens just about every time someone plays a draw/hook.

So, everyone who said the shaft ALWAYS HAS to be clamped to measure face angle is wrong. Everyone who said that the sole ALWAYS HAD to be in a natural position for face angle to be measured is wrong. It depends on the device being used and both devices CAN be accurate if used correctly. Everyone who said the sole of the club has nothing to do with face angle is wrong. BY DEFINITION, face angle is the angle presented to the golfer when the club is soled in the playing position with the shaft perpendicular to the intended line of flight. SOLE!! There it is!

NONE of this information is my opinion. It has all come from published material by respected individuals in the golf world. So, if anyone wants to argue about ANYTHING, I suggest you call Mr. Mitchell or Mr. Maltby to do it.

BT