How does cutting down shaft affect shafts performance?

[isaacbm]

I'm thinking of Getting the new 913 Titleist but I want to order one at 43 3/4 inches. what would that do to the flex/kickpoint/weight of the club?

 

I want to try to get it as close to my old 905R as possible, which was just under 44 with a 70 gram speeder tour spec. which weight should I get if I plan to cut it down from the raw 45 to just under 44 and still have the shaft weigh 70 grams?

 

Has anyone else tried this and had success? I'm basically trying to get a club that I can hit straighter more often. I'm caring less and less about distance these days as I am about hitting irons from the short grass. Also, for me personally, I consistently get close to 1.5 smash factor with the shorter shaft so I'm not really losing much distance anyway.

 

Any advice would be appreciated....

[TheMerryTex]

You can do it. Take you 905R to a good club fitter to find the total swing weight and then make sure you have the same shaft and get Titleist to customize the swing weight after the shaft is cut down. They can always use a different weight in the weight port to get it back to the weight of the 905R after they cut the shaft down.

Depending on where you cut the shaft can play a factor in ball flight. Cutting it will always change weight.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='AChapa8807' timestamp='1350364907' post='5800253']
You can do it. Take you 905R to a good club fitter to find the total swing weight and then make sure you have the same shaft and get Titleist to customize the swing weight after the shaft is cut down. They can always use a different weight in the weight port to get it back to the weight of the 905R after they cut the shaft down.

Depending on where you cut the shaft can play a factor in ball flight. Cutting it will always change weight.
[/quote]

Right but I don't want all the weight in the head. If I cut an inch off of a 80 gram shaft will that bring it down to 75 grams or so? what would the ratio be? would I need a 75 gram shaft and then cut it to 43 3/4?

Also, how much would that influence the launch angle?

I know there are a million combinations but I'm just basically wondering how different it will make the shaft play....

I used to play a club that was "too stiff" for me according to my swing speed but that allowed me to sin it very little and hit it dead straight.

I

[isaacbm]

I guess I'm just wondering short story: What will cutting the butt end 1 inch or so do to the club. Will it make it way lighter? Launch the ball way lower? Or are the effects pretty minor. I just find it a lot easier to square up a shorter club.

I don't think it's really possible to get the club just like the 905R but maybe it's not necessary to get it exactly. I guess you're right. Just weigh the old club and try to have them match it...

[Stuart_G]

Cutting an inch off the butt end of the club will have a negligible effect on both total static weight and bend profile of the shaft. The only thing it will do is lower the swing weight of the club due to the shorter length.

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1350367758' post='5800319']
Just weigh the old club and try to have them match it...
[/quote]

Exactly. Although if you are going to pick the shaft first, you may have to decide what is more important, matching swing weight or static weight.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1350375810' post='5800515']
Cutting an inch off the butt end of the club will have a negligible effect on both total static weight and bend profile of the shaft. The only thing it will do is lower the swing weight of the club due to the shorter length.

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1350367758' post='5800319']
Just weigh the old club and try to have them match it...
[/quote]

Exactly. Although if you are going to pick the shaft first, you may have to decide what is more important, matching swing weight or static weight.
[/quote]

Ok, so if I cut off an inch from the shaft but add the same amount of weight back to the head, will that change the flex of the shaft much?

[mistercoffee1]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1350403176' post='5801823']
Ok, so if I cut off an inch from the shaft but add the same amount of weight back to the head, will that change the flex of the shaft much?
[/quote]

Going an inch shorter would cause your swingweight to drop by about 6 points.
Therefore to get that 6 points back, you would need to add about 12g of weight at the head to get that back. That will affect the flex of your shaft (making it softer by about 6CPM). How much it would affect [u]your[/u] flight, not sure.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='mistercoffee1' timestamp='1350405142' post='5801997']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1350403176' post='5801823']
Ok, so if I cut off an inch from the shaft but add the same amount of weight back to the head, will that change the flex of the shaft much?
[/quote]

Going an inch shorter would cause your swingweight to drop by about 6 points.
Therefore to get that 6 points back, you would need to add about 12g of weight at the head to get that back. That will affect the flex of your shaft (making it softer by about 6CPM). How much it would affect [u]your[/u] flight, not sure.
[/quote]

Thanks a lot! I'll just have to play around with it a little I guess. For a guy who's been around the game as long as I have, I'm still learning how to fine tune the fitting process.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1350406892' post='5802107']
[quote name='mistercoffee1' timestamp='1350405142' post='5801997']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1350403176' post='5801823']
Ok, so if I cut off an inch from the shaft but add the same amount of weight back to the head, will that change the flex of the shaft much?
[/quote]

Going an inch shorter would cause your swingweight to drop by about 6 points.
Therefore to get that 6 points back, you would need to add about 12g of weight at the head to get that back. That will affect the flex of your shaft (making it softer by about 6CPM). How much it would affect [u]your[/u] flight, not sure.
[/quote]

Thanks a lot! I'll just have to play around with it a little I guess. For a guy who's been around the game as long as I have, I'm still learning how to fine tune the fitting process.
[/quote]

Also, keep in mind that, although adding back the 12gms will get the SW back to what it was, that doesn't mean it will 'feel' the same. The sw scale isn't perfect when it comes to comparing the feel of two clubs of different length. If you find the sw too light after cutting off the inch, I suggest adding weight back to the head a little at a time to find the 'best' sw for you at the new length. Also the best 'feel' is a combination of both SW and static weight and getting the SW 'back' to what it was means increasing total static weight over the club before it was cut down. Many people find they don't really need to bring the SW all the way back. Lead tape is good to find the right weight and once you do, you can either keep the tape on or use some other more permanent method.

[Joshzilla]

This is a great thread. My current shaft is 45.75" and I think it's just too much. Wouldn't mind losing about 1/2" out of the shaft. Once you find the SW you want by using lead tape, how do you make it permanent? I bet you're gonna say hot melt and I really have no idea what that is.

[Stuart_G]

[quote name='Joshzilla' timestamp='1350484221' post='5806137']
This is a great thread. My current shaft is 45.75" and I think it's just too much. Wouldn't mind losing about 1/2" out of the shaft. Once you find the SW you want by using lead tape, how do you make it permanent? I bet you're gonna say hot melt and I really have no idea what that is.
[/quote]

Hot melt is one way - it's basically rat glue (rattle) that is injected into the head. If you have a head with adjustable weights, getting/buying new weights is another way. Keeping the lead tape on is valid option as well if it doesn't bother you from a visual standpoint.

[isaacbm]

I cut a 46.5 taylor down to 44.75. it went from d7 to d0. Had to add some tape on the bottom but 3 pieces brought it back to d3 and I can't really tell the difference in shaft flex. For some reason, it's easier to find the sweet spot when I'm not waving a fishing rod....

[Nessism]

As mentioned already, shortening the club will reduce swingweight, but dding weight to restore the swingweight will reduce the shaft stiffness, even with the shorter club.

To properly shorten a club, and not reduce the shaft stiffness, involves pulling the shaft and both tipping the shaft and butt trimming. Also, add weight in the head to restore swingweight. Roughly equal amounts of tip and butt trimming works out well, again, assuming you will bring the swingweight back where it was before trimming.

[myspinonit]

[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1350485394' post='5806251']
[quote name='Joshzilla' timestamp='1350484221' post='5806137']
This is a great thread. My current shaft is 45.75" and I think it's just too much. Wouldn't mind losing about 1/2" out of the shaft. Once you find the SW you want by using lead tape, how do you make it permanent? I bet you're gonna say hot melt and I really have no idea what that is.
[/quote]

Hot melt is one way - it's basically rat glue (rattle) that is injected into the head. If you have a head with adjustable weights, getting/buying new weights is another way. Keeping the lead tape on is valid option as well if it doesn't bother you from a visual standpoint.
[/quote]

To Joshzilla:

Since you say 45.75", I'm wondering if you have the R11s? I do, and cut it 1/2 inch at the butt. Since I had some Taylormade weights, I've left 10g in the back and 6g in front. Brings it close to the original SW.

Hitting a bunch more fairways and no loss of distance.

I tried a lot of combos on weight and FCT and and that's the ONLY weight combo that feels solid for me after the cut, with shaft in the higher position and ASP at N.(though I have used ASP at Closed, just for an address feel).

It's my opinion from trying every setting available that some settings (higher/lower) make the head[u] feel[/u] slightly heavier (or lighter) as the head is rotated from the innate weight in the head itself.

It's also my [u]opinion, at least for me[/u], that [u]sometime[/u]s the heavier weight in the heel actually DELAYS the club getting back to square, and the heel comes through more, leaving face open. Certainly that was my feeling when I tried such as 12, 2 or 14, 2 to get back the original weight.

If I went less than the 5g I added, it felt "tinny" no matter what setting I tried. I'm a very moderate speed swinger, but short backswing, faster transition.

So having the 10g, 6g setup seems to help me square it up at impact. In addition, the 6g in front should bring the flight down a tad, and offset pretty much the slight increase in spin from the higher setting. And promote forward rollout.

I don't feel any particular shaft difference in feel at that setup. It [u]felt[/u] a bit more flexy with a heavier weight in back, (12 or 14) leaving a 2g in front, whether that's technically logical or just my feel.

Hope that might be of use in your quest.

[Joshzilla]

[quote name='myspinonit' timestamp='1351516892' post='5861441']
[quote name='Stuart G.' timestamp='1350485394' post='5806251']
[quote name='Joshzilla' timestamp='1350484221' post='5806137']
This is a great thread. My current shaft is 45.75" and I think it's just too much. Wouldn't mind losing about 1/2" out of the shaft. Once you find the SW you want by using lead tape, how do you make it permanent? I bet you're gonna say hot melt and I really have no idea what that is.
[/quote]

Hot melt is one way - it's basically rat glue (rattle) that is injected into the head. If you have a head with adjustable weights, getting/buying new weights is another way. Keeping the lead tape on is valid option as well if it doesn't bother you from a visual standpoint.
[/quote]

To Joshzilla:

Since you say 45.75", I'm wondering if you have the R11s? I do, and cut it 1/2 inch at the butt. Since I had some Taylormade weights, I've left 10g in the back and 6g in front. Brings it close to the original SW.

Hitting a bunch more fairways and no loss of distance.

I tried a lot of combos on weight and FCT and and that's the ONLY weight combo that feels solid for me after the cut, with shaft in the higher position and ASP at N.(though I have used ASP at Closed, just for an address feel).

It's my opinion from trying every setting available that some settings (higher/lower) make the head[u] feel[/u] slightly heavier (or lighter) as the head is rotated from the innate weight in the head itself.

It's also my [u]opinion, at least for me[/u], that [u]sometime[/u]s the heavier weight in the heel actually DELAYS the club getting back to square, and the heel comes through more, leaving face open. Certainly that was my feeling when I tried such as 12, 2 or 14, 2 to get back the original weight.

If I went less than the 5g I added, it felt "tinny" no matter what setting I tried. I'm a very moderate speed swinger, but short backswing, faster transition.

So having the 10g, 6g setup seems to help me square it up at impact. In addition, the 6g in front should bring the flight down a tad, and offset pretty much the slight increase in spin from the higher setting. And promote forward rollout.

I don't feel any particular shaft difference in feel at that setup. It [u]felt[/u] a bit more flexy with a heavier weight in back, (12 or 14) leaving a 2g in front, whether that's technically logical or just my feel.

Hope that might be of use in your quest.
[/quote]

Thanks! I'm actually playing a VRS w/ Oban Devotion. Previous driver was 910D3 w/ Proforce V2, which was 45". I think I found the center of the clubface more often with the previous combo due to length. I guess if I do cut it down I'll have to play around with lead tape if I wanna target where the weight needs to be.

Thank you for the real world feedback. It's good to know there is some validity in doing it!

[Howard_Jones]

I would suggest a visit to a professional club fitter where it all starts with LM testing of your old 905
The right man can both duplicate and improve the overall feel and performance, so dont get stuck with a old club, there might be improvements to get here.

All shafts is different, so its impossible to predict what will happen when a club is cut down from butt only, but since drivers and woods is sharing the same shaft, think about a wood for a moment.

A 3W got a play length more like a good driver should have been, and how do we trim and install a shaft for a wood ?
As a rule of thumb we tip trim woods, not only to make them shorter, but we tip trim to stiffen op the shaft when head weight goes up, so if we make us self a chart of "regular head weight" and corresponding tip trim by using the manufacturers trim charts, you will have a good idea of how the shaft should be trimmed when cut down, and weight is added to the head.

Since tip trim instructions vary from shaft to shaft model, please DONT use this chart before you have checked tip trim instructions for your shaft, because it might be other instructions from the manufacturer.

Club - Head weight - Tip trim (NOT all shaft, so check yours)

Driver - 198 grams - 0 tip trim
3W - 208 grams - 0.5 tip trim
5W - 218 grams - 1.0 tip trim
7W - 228 grams - 1.5 tip trim

10 grams added head weight on woods = 0.5 tip trim
Use that as a rule of thumb when you cut down a driver, and want to keep the shaft close to its original specs if you dont have the option of measure the shaft or have it done by a professional.

Ive posted a method to find club length and swing weight by your own several times, and you will during this test experience what will happen to shaft performance if you only butt cut and add weight. For some players that might ruin the clubs performance, for others it might improve performance, so unless you are certain of that the shaft is good as it is, dont waist your chance to find out what it will end up like before you cut it all wrong.

[color=#282828]Here is a [/color][color=#282828]method to find the right club length and swing weight, without seeing a shop.[/color]
[color=#282828]#1 - Get a white board pen, some graffa tape, and a few coins. (dimes is nice)[/color]
[color=#282828]- Mark the ball with a dot, facing sweet spot at address[/color]
[color=#282828]- Hit a few ball and look for impact mark.[/color]
[color=#282828]- Against the heel side - Shaft is too long[/color]
[color=#282828]- All over the face - Shaft is too long[/color]
[color=#282828]- Out against the toe mostly - Shaft is to short[/color]
[color=#282828]- Sweet spots more than 70 %, about maximum club length (within 3/4 of an inch large circle)[/color]

[color=#282828]- To simulate different club lengths, put a 1/2 inch wide piece of tape on top of your grip, as you "chopped" that part of.[/color]
[color=#282828]- Take your grip lower than the tape, and hit another ball - Look for impact marks.[/color]

[color=#282828]- If your club head becomes to light (no control), put a peace of tape on the butt of your club head (to protect it from scratches), then put a coin on the tape, and seal it with some tape on top of it.[/color]
[color=#282828]- A dime is a "dust" more than 2 grams, who equals to 1 Swing weight point[/color]
[color=#282828]- Gripping down 0.5 will give the feeling of loosing 3 Swing weight points / 6 grams / 3 x a dime from the club head.[/color]

[color=#282828]But don't "trust" the standard value of the Club to be right for you. Don't be afraid to try both higher and lower swing weight than standard to find YOURS.[/color]

[color=#282828]- Remember when you grip down, grip size goes down, and your grip might become to "tight".[/color]
If you start with a driver of 46.50 and it seems like 44.00 is where you going, grip size during this test will be difficult, but since you already have decided to cut it down, get a cheap extra grip and do like this.

Cut of the old grip of your driver
Mark the old shaft but for cut down, (46.50 -44 = 2.5) DONT CUT
Cut the grip cap of the cheap test grip so there is a hole straight trough
Add the desired amount of build up tape to your grip size, but remember to add it below the cut down mark
Put on the cheap test grip, and place it on the shaft so the intended cut of comes out of the grip end.

Now you can test the club with a comfortable grip at the "new club length" and still have full return, so you cant mess it up.
If you when testing find out that the club becomes to soft, when adding the desired weight to the club head, and the club was OK flex wise as it was, then use the "Wood/weight/tip trim" method above to calculate the need for tip trim to make the shaft to perform as close as possible as before cut down.

[color=#282828]Good luck![/color]

[isaacbm]

[quote name='Howard Jones' timestamp='1351565368' post='5865361']
I would suggest a visit to a professional club fitter where it all starts with LM testing of your old 905
The right man can both duplicate and improve the overall feel and performance, so dont get stuck with a old club, there might be improvements to get here.

All shafts is different, so its impossible to predict what will happen when a club is cut down from butt only, but since drivers and woods is sharing the same shaft, think about a wood for a moment.

A 3W got a play length more like a good driver should have been, and how do we trim and install a shaft for a wood ?
As a rule of thumb we tip trim woods, not only to make them shorter, but we tip trim to stiffen op the shaft when head weight goes up, so if we make us self a chart of "regular head weight" and corresponding tip trim by using the manufacturers trim charts, you will have a good idea of how the shaft should be trimmed when cut down, and weight is added to the head.

Since tip trim instructions vary from shaft to shaft model, please DONT use this chart before you have checked tip trim instructions for your shaft, because it might be other instructions from the manufacturer.

Club - Head weight - Tip trim (NOT all shaft, so check yours)

Driver - 198 grams - 0 tip trim
3W - 208 grams - 0.5 tip trim
5W - 218 grams - 1.0 tip trim
7W - 228 grams - 1.5 tip trim

10 grams added head weight on woods = 0.5 tip trim
Use that as a rule of thumb when you cut down a driver, and want to keep the shaft close to its original specs if you dont have the option of measure the shaft or have it done by a professional.

Ive posted a method to find club length and swing weight by your own several times, and you will during this test experience what will happen to shaft performance if you only butt cut and add weight. For some players that might ruin the clubs performance, for others it might improve performance, so unless you are certain of that the shaft is good as it is, dont waist your chance to find out what it will end up like before you cut it all wrong.

[color=#282828]Here is a [/color][color=#282828]method to find the right club length and swing weight, without seeing a shop.[/color]
[color=#282828]#1 - Get a white board pen, some graffa tape, and a few coins. (dimes is nice)[/color]
[color=#282828]- Mark the ball with a dot, facing sweet spot at address[/color]
[color=#282828]- Hit a few ball and look for impact mark.[/color]
[color=#282828]- Against the heel side - Shaft is too long[/color]
[color=#282828]- All over the face - Shaft is too long[/color]
[color=#282828]- Out against the toe mostly - Shaft is to short[/color]
[color=#282828]- Sweet spots more than 70 %, about maximum club length (within 3/4 of an inch large circle)[/color]

[color=#282828]- To simulate different club lengths, put a 1/2 inch wide piece of tape on top of your grip, as you "chopped" that part of.[/color]
[color=#282828]- Take your grip lower than the tape, and hit another ball - Look for impact marks.[/color]

[color=#282828]- If your club head becomes to light (no control), put a peace of tape on the butt of your club head (to protect it from scratches), then put a coin on the tape, and seal it with some tape on top of it.[/color]
[color=#282828]- A dime is a "dust" more than 2 grams, who equals to 1 Swing weight point[/color]
[color=#282828]- Gripping down 0.5 will give the feeling of loosing 3 Swing weight points / 6 grams / 3 x a dime from the club head.[/color]

[color=#282828]But don't "trust" the standard value of the Club to be right for you. Don't be afraid to try both higher and lower swing weight than standard to find YOURS.[/color]

[color=#282828]- Remember when you grip down, grip size goes down, and your grip might become to "tight".[/color]
If you start with a driver of 46.50 and it seems like 44.00 is where you going, grip size during this test will be difficult, but since you already have decided to cut it down, get a cheap extra grip and do like this.

Cut of the old grip of your driver
Mark the old shaft but for cut down, (46.50 -44 = 2.5) DONT CUT
Cut the grip cap of the cheap test grip so there is a hole straight trough
Add the desired amount of build up tape to your grip size, but remember to add it below the cut down mark
Put on the cheap test grip, and place it on the shaft so the intended cut of comes out of the grip end.

Now you can test the club with a comfortable grip at the "new club length" and still have full return, so you cant mess it up.
If you when testing find out that the club becomes to soft, when adding the desired weight to the club head, and the club was OK flex wise as it was, then use the "Wood/weight/tip trim" method above to calculate the need for tip trim to make the shaft to perform as close as possible as before cut down.

[color=#282828]Good luck![/color]
[/quote]

thanks for taking all of the time to leave such a thorough message. I hope a few people can gain from this. cheers!!