Persimmon drivers with really nice grain pattern ?

[Texsport]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1363028987' post='6590929']
[quote name='teevons' timestamp='1362806712' post='6575847']
Charley, did you ever get up in your loft and uncover all the other gems you said you have??
[/quote]

I am in the process of photographing my clubs for a sale. I have done about 300 boxes to date.

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]

Will that sale be announced in advance?

texsport

[xgolfx]

I am negotiating with an auction house , but have not decided how to proceed at this time

CHARLEY PENNA

[Shallowface]

[attachment=1584689:SuttonCrown01.jpg][attachment=1584693:SuttonFace02.jpg][attachment=1584697:SuttonSole.jpg]

My latest thrift store find. Two bucks at a local Goodwill.

Amazing what people "throw away" these days.

It has its original Yamaha grip, a Victory with gold paint fill and a reminder rib. It's installed in such a way that when gripped the face is quite open, similar to what we've all heard about Hogan's clubs. Don't know if this was a preference Hal Sutton had, or if the grip was just installed crooked.

Regardless, this has to be one of the prettiest clubs I have ever seen.

[guisician]

It's like a piece of Scandinavian furniture that you can swing!

[russad]

A beautiful looking club and in great condition!

[Nspiel58]

Very nice find!

[freddiec]

The Yamaha is a great looking driver. I hit one of Hal's Texans once when I played with a friend who owned it, and it was also a very tall (deep face). The club sat almost 1 deg open and we came to the conclusion it didn't have much loft prob around 7 deg. Hal was a strong dude that could hit a mean fade.

[Texsport]

A former Tour and Senior Tour friend told me just the other day that Diawa had some 100 yr old persimmon heads that were spectacular.

If other Japanese makers sourced the same wood, you might find something special with an old Japanese persimmon club.

Texsport

[xgolfx]

[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1363539826' post='6629731']
A former Tour and Senior Tour friend told me just the other day that Diawa had some 100 yr old persimmon heads that were spectacular.

If other Japanese makers sourced the same wood, you might find something special with an old Japanese persimmon club.

Texsport
[/quote]

if it was 100 years old and unfinished it would be too dry to use

CHARLEY PENNA

[olegolfer]

[quote name='xgolfx' timestamp='1363543223' post='6630059']
[quote name='Texsport' timestamp='1363539826' post='6629731']
A former Tour and Senior Tour friend told me just the other day that Diawa had some 100 yr old persimmon heads that were spectacular.

If other Japanese makers sourced the same wood, you might find something special with an old Japanese persimmon club.

Texsport
[/quote]

if it was 100 years old and unfinished it would be too dry to use

CHARLEY PENNA
[/quote]


Some very nice patterns shown which leads to a question about
grain strength. While I prefer the visuals of a horse-shoe grain I
was advised by old time PGA pro that a straight back grain was
actuallh stronger as it put the strongest grain orientation in the
neck which is normally the weakest part of the head, especially the
old "swan necks" There is a picture of Jacks 945 that has a huge
crack running from the sole to the back screw. I have often
wondered the grain pattern was on that driver....

[freddiec]

Speaking of Japanese persimmon, here is a Mizuno World Masters from around 1990.

[freddiec]

Olegolfer, the was once a pic of Jack's driver from the hitters view in his book. The grain was horseshoe which started between 12 O'Clock and 1. I just purchased the book and should have it soon , will try and post a good pic.

[Seve0992]

[quote name='Shallowface' timestamp='1363302816' post='6613293']
[attachment=1584689:SuttonCrown01.jpg][attachment=1584693:SuttonFace02.jpg][attachment=1584697:SuttonSole.jpg]

My latest thrift store find. Two bucks at a local Goodwill.

Amazing what people "throw away" these days.

It has its original Yamaha grip, a Victory with gold paint fill and a reminder rib. It's installed in such a way that when gripped the face is quite open, similar to what we've all heard about Hogan's clubs. Don't know if this was a preference Hal Sutton had, or if the grip was just installed crooked.

Regardless, this has to be one of the prettiest clubs I have ever seen.
[/quote]

Great driver. I have a couple Yamaha persimmon drivers I have picked up over the years (including 3 Sutton Drivers) and they all exceptional quality. I just wish the Sutton's were in the same condition as yours!

[russad]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1363563826' post='6631997']
Speaking of Japanese persimmon, here is a Mizuno World Masters from around 1990.
[/quote] A beautiful looking club!

[freddiec]

Jack Nicklaus' early 1950s 945W Tommy Armour Eye O Matic MacGregor Tourney persimmon driver. Probably the only picture ever published showing the best players famous driver from his eye view. From his book the Full Swing from early 1980s. Doesn't get much better than this.

[Nspiel58]

Great photos Fred. That Mizuno is a beauty! Imagine being Jack playing that driver at the Masters. High Fade, landing center cut. Hear the gallery's polite but enthusiastic applause. No "In the Hole!!" to be heard. I think Jack would turn around and kill you with that stare if anyone would dare blurt out something so stupid. But I digress. I can't believe that I even have to have that phrase in my head when I think about your photo. Ah, the good old days. Turn back the clock!!!!!

[olegolfer]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1363637036' post='6638041']
Jack Nicklaus' early 1950s 945W Tommy Armour Eye O Matic MacGregor Tourney persimmon driver. Probably the only picture ever published showing the best players famous driver from his eye view. From his book the Full Swing from early 1980s. Doesn't get much better than this.
[/quote]

Interesting picture. looking at the grain it appears to turn into the face at quite an angle. i once read that MacGregor
for their top line clubs did not use any heads where the grain entered the face at less than a 30 degree angle. Jacks
club appears to have a grain pattern that would be borderline if this were true. This could seem to confirm that the
strongest grain pattern would be a straight back grain e.g. the grain enters the face at a 90 degree angle. Whats your
take on this?

[freddiec]

Olegolfer,

I spoke to Dave Wood about Grain a few times. It was an interesting conversation. I remember he said that you want the grain to run into the face, which this one does. I've seen a lot of really good drivers with nice grain. The wood I bet is very old and the block is super hard. I have an M85 with somewhat similar grain pattern, not quote the same but similar. I know the 945 was a limited edition run type club and I'm sure the club makers chose the best hard blocks most of the time and Jack's is a good example. I think he had cracks in the neck because it might have been reshafted many times. I'm willing to bet Jack's block is from the part of tree that is extremely hard and really good "Old Growth" persimmon by the looks of it. I've seen a lot of good ol' Macs (top line drivers from the 50s) with similar grain.

I do agree with you , grain that goes straight in at 90 is also very desire-able , Dave mentioned to me if my memory serves me right if there was "perfect" grain, that might be it. Not sure if he meant that was because of alignment benefit, or wood strenght or both.

I'd like to hear what the experts say. There are a couple on this forum.

[Texsport]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1363661832' post='6640977']
Olegolfer,

I spoke to Dave Wood about Grain a few times. It was an interesting conversation. I remember he said that you want the grain to run into the face, which this one does. I've seen a lot of really good drivers with nice grain. The wood I bet is very old and the block is super hard. I have an M85 with somewhat similar grain pattern, not quote the same but similar. I know the 945 was a limited edition run type club and I'm sure the club makers chose the best hard blocks most of the time and Jack's is a good example. I think he had cracks in the neck because it might have been reshafted many times. I'm willing to bet Jack's block is from the part of tree that is extremely hard and really good "Old Growth" persimmon by the looks of it. I've seen a lot of good ol' Macs (top line drivers from the 50s) with similar grain.

I do agree with you , grain that goes straight in at 90 is also very desire-able , Dave mentioned to me if my memory serves me right if there was "perfect" grain, that might be it. Not sure if he meant that was because of alignment benefit, or wood strenght or both.

I'd like to hear what the experts say. There are a couple on this forum.
[/quote]

I had similar conversations with Dave when I picked out heads for my son's and my WB clubs. The grain running into the face means the ball strikes the head at it's strongest point, not across the grain, which would put lateral stress, potentially splitting the wood along the grain lines. Consequently,those old perfect grain heads have lasted over 60 years without breaking!

He said that the wood from the bottom of the tree, even into the tap root, had very dark and wide growth rings, as well as dark carbon spots.

That's the kind of wood I picked out of Dave's vats for my Texan drivers and Driving Instruments.

I played for years with a MacGregor 693 that had a nice carbon spot right near the top, center of the head.

I've also got some 40's MacGregor Ben Hogan woods with the most outstanding dark and wide growth rings I've ever seen. Also great head shapes, with a semi-pointed toe pear shape.

Those clubs didn't have inserts, and I had Tom Wishon, who was running a club repair business in Bellaire,Texas back then, to add inserts.

He added white fiber inserts, and my daughter played those clubs all the way thru high school.

If I have time, I'll take some pics, after I find the clubs, that is.

Texsport

[weeicemon]

Texan

[Bella Woods]

According to Elmore Just - there is no difference in strength/quality between a straight
grain wood head and U grain, as long as the grain runs perpendicular to the face or
hitting area (even if it is a little off). You can cut a U grain and straight grain rough
block head from the same "flitch" - re: they can be from the same piece of wood - inches apart.

People actually usually think that U grain heads are stronger because the grain "interlocks".
U grain has been more popular historically because of cosmetics/looks.

The hardness of the wood has more to do with where it came from than anything. Southern
wetlands (say Florida) persimmon is lighter and softer wood, persimmon wood from the northern
portions of the growing (say Kentucky/Tennessee) area is harder and heavier.

The main selling point of a log with a large butt end is that it yields more club heads - not that
the wood is any stronger down there.

[xgolfx]

[quote name='Bella Woods' timestamp='1363731418' post='6646101']
According to Elmore Just - there is no difference in strength/quality between a straight
grain wood head and U grain, as long as the grain runs perpendicular to the face or
hitting area (even if it is a little off). You can cut a U grain and straight grain rough
block head from the same "flitch" - re: they can be from the same piece of wood - inches apart.

People actually usually think that U grain heads are stronger because the grain "interlocks".
U grain has been more popular historically because of cosmetics/looks.

The hardness of the wood has more to do with where it came from than anything. Southern
wetlands (say Florida) persimmon is lighter and softer wood, persimmon wood from the northern
portions of the growing (say Kentucky/Tennessee) area is harder and heavier.

The main selling point of a log with a large butt end is that it yields more club heads - not that
the wood is any stronger down there.
[/quote]

Very good analysis, in my opinion

CHARLEY PENNA

[Wriggles]

A week or so ago, at my local Goodwill, I came across a 1-3-5 set of MacGregor Tourney persimmon woods, right handed. They were in pretty good shape, right handed. $ 10 would have bought them. They had the MT logo and the word Tourney on the crown. The inserts were like a silver colored. That day I just wasn't in the mood to buy more clubs. (I'm lefthanded) Yesterday, they were gone, and only junk remained. Did I pass up potentially valuable clubs?

A couple months ago, I bought at the same store a Cleveland TC-15 driver in superlative condition for $3. Original grip, but cracked and useless.

[freddiec]

For Guisician when he has his cereal tomorrow. ;-) Bold and Beautiful Wood Bros All American.

[Bella Woods]

freddiec:


Bella has always loved that color combination on a persimmon wood.

Red toned with either white red white, or red white red insert.

Beautiful looking wood from Dave!

[guisician]

[quote name='freddiec' timestamp='1363982311' post='6666193']
For Guisician when he has his cereal tomorrow. ;-) Bold and Beautiful Wood Bros All American.
[/quote]

Holy cow, freddiec; I'm a little early, but the snack chips are tasting better than usual this evening!

[freddiec]

Glad you guys like it. I agree Bella, the color combo is stunning. The All American is a classy looking club, especially with the blue score lines on the top as well as the bottom. He 1st made a custom All American for Sec of State George Shultz. George's daughter was dating a guy who had a Wood Bros driver and she thought it was so beautiful she contacted Wood Bros. ( Dave Wood ) and wanted something very special made up for her Dad. The All American was born. Dave must have used some high quality stains, his woods really were true works of Art. Few more pics for you guys.

[russad]

A beautiful looking club, a real piece of art.

[teevons]

Cleveland Classic Ben Crenshaw driver , head only, has broken off graphite shaft that needs to be pulled out of it but really nice grain

[freddiec]

Wood Bros Texan with large carbon spot on skirt and very tight U grain. This block is rock hard. Blocks with Carbon were sourced from the hardest oldest part of the tree.