JAMES HAHN - BEST SWING YOU'VE NEVER SEEN?

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Empros' timestamp='1351638247' post='5869455']
You make Rory sound like a 6 handicapper. I wish my 'pushes' went 320 down the fairway. And really, who [i]doesn't[/i] struggle in very windy conditions, pro or otherwise?
[/quote]

He is a great golfer and going to be a hall of famer. This year he was ranked outside the top 50 in GIR and outside the top 150 in fairways hit. In 2010 he was ranked 120th in GIR. He has a very powerful swing but struggles when flighting the ball down is necessary. I'm not saying he is a 6 handicap, in fact I think he will win 6-8 majors. He is as good as he is because he is a complete golfer and one of the best around the greens in the world. All I'm saying is he is one dimensional currently but when he's on he can be unbeatable. His swing is moving in the right direction as I said but he gets a good bit under plane with driver and his paths gets too far in to out, think big miss left at Augusta as an example. Golf swing wise his isn't close to James IMO but he is a much better golfer than James at this point. There is a big difference in a great golf swing and a great golfer. Some are both.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvctKD2anDs&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Here is an older swing at normal speed. Not robotic at all IMO

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351635611' post='5869239']
[quote name='Empros' timestamp='1351633601' post='5869119']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351512772' post='5861259']
[quote name='jmvargas' timestamp='1351512344' post='5861251']
it's good but i like rory's swing more..
[/quote]

Just for fun, why?
[/quote]

This swing looks too robotic for my liking, though it's obviously technically sound. I guess when he's walking 35 yards further up the fairway to Rory's ball, that's when you'd think it wasn't as good. I have never, ever seen anyone swing the club that powerfully with that amount of balance (re Rory).
[/quote]
You realize this is filmed at high speed? If you watched the web.com tour championship you'd see at full speed it's anything but robotic. The thing with Rory is his swing is very one dimensional. It's getting better but his path is still VERY in to out (driver was 10* in to out beginning of the year). He has to aim quite a bit left to hit straight shots and his fades are basically pushes. He can hit it extremely high but will struggle in very windy conditions and always tend to miss left. James can hit any shot you ask of him. It's like Golden Tee, but sometimes to his own detriment as he has so many options he sometimes struggles picking which shot to it. Rory is a much better golfer at this point but I'd rather have James' swing. I think as they both get older James will become a better golfer and Rory will neutralize his path more so he can work it both ways and doesn't have that big left miss
[/quote]

it doesnt look robotic to me. Ive noticed this year with Rory's swing that he reroutes the club coming down, to the inside alot. I didnt notice it as much last year but it might be cause I wasn't paying that much attention.

[PingEye2]

[quote name='Empros' timestamp='1351633601' post='5869119']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351512772' post='5861259']
[quote name='jmvargas' timestamp='1351512344' post='5861251']
it's good but i like rory's swing more..
[/quote]

Just for fun, why?
[/quote]

This swing looks too robotic for my liking, though it's obviously technically sound. I guess when he's walking 35 yards further up the fairway to Rory's ball, that's when you'd think it wasn't as good. I have never, ever seen anyone swing the club that powerfully with that amount of balance (re Rory).
[/quote]

James Hahn is T-27 in driving distance on the web.com at 301 yards. I highly doubt Rory will be 35 yards further down the fairway too often.

[Pure745]

[quote name='swanry30' timestamp='1351514937' post='5861349']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351511954' post='5861231']
For differences in your swing look at how his right wrist bends/left wrist cocks while right arm is extended. Your right arm folds faster than you set the club and get too narrow with arms. Will feel wide with arms and narrow with club
[/quote]

makes sense. thanks for commenting on his swing (and mine). you are working with some incredible golfers - are you making the transition with james to the big show - or will you continue mixing it up in a variety of places?
[/quote]

"Dan Carraher aka DC started his career with Pure745, after the masterful artistry that is his golf swing it has been all down hill from there" - Golf World



Good stuff DC! Always doing big things!

[Empros]

Yeah, I don't think Robert Garigus thought he'd be playing first all day when they were paired, but there you go! I digress.

Not to derail but I kinda laughed at "Rory's a great golfer". I don't think it's any exaggeration whatsoever to go further with that and say...."he's the best golfer...by a distance". And this 'one dimsensional' thing is....yeah, I don't even know. I guess he's one dimensional in the sense that 99% of his shots are absolutely pured.

[PingEye2]

You did hear that Tiger was hitting it past him consistently in their little match this weekend didn't you? Yes, he is by far the best in the world..in fact so good we don't need to exaggerate his skills

[Empros]

I didn't 'hear', but I did 'watch' Rory blow it past him a good few times when they played together the other week. And more importantly, straight.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Empros' timestamp='1351640216' post='5869571']
Yeah, I don't think Robert Garigus thought he'd be playing first all day when they were paired, but there you go! I digress.

Not to derail but I kinda laughed at "Rory's a great golfer". I don't think it's any exaggeration whatsoever to go further with that and say...."he's the best golfer...by a distance". And this 'one dimsensional' thing is....yeah, I don't even know. I guess he's one dimensional in the sense that 99% of his shots are absolutely pured.
[/quote]
No point in even arguing with you. He is 47th in ball striking, 56th in GIR, and 155th in FIR. He doesn't hit ever shot pure and he is far from the best ball striker on tour. He is currently the best PLAYER on tour. Big difference. He could be even better if he drove it straighter and took some of the curve off his shots, if not he will always have a high push miss or over hook especially under pressure.

[PingEye2]

So, back to James Hahn. Great looking swing and seems like a really cool dude!

[Empros]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351641200' post='5869645']
No point in even arguing with you. He is 47th in ball striking, 56th in GIR, and 155th in FIR. He doesn't hit ever shot pure and he is far from the best ball striker on tour. He is currently the best PLAYER on tour. Big difference. He could be even better if he drove it straighter and took some of the curve off his shots, if not he will always have a high push miss or over hook especially under pressure.
[/quote]

And this is exactly why I take what 'teachers' say with a grain of salt. From the amount of faults you can pick from Rory's swing, I guess you're 'that' guy who thinks Kaymer did the right thing trying to change his swing. Facepalm.

This kid has a nice swing, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Far from the best ball striker on tour? Haha, priceless. But no, stats prove [i]everything.[/i]

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='PingEye2' timestamp='1351641243' post='5869647']
So, back to James Hahn. Great looking swing and seems like a [b]really cool diode![/b]
[/quote]

Resistance is futile!

Nice work, Dan!

[PingEye2]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1351642341' post='5869741']
[quote name='PingEye2' timestamp='1351641243' post='5869647']
So, back to James Hahn. Great looking swing and seems like a [b]really cool diode![/b]
[/quote]

Resistance is futile!

Nice work, Dan!
[/quote]

Thanks! Damn you autocorrect

[mcharlton]

Beautiful swing & fantasic golfer

[kenwiggins11]

Very good looking swing! Thanks for posting

[golfsavvy]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351639361' post='5869499']
There is a big difference in a great golf swing and a great golfer. Some are both.
[/quote]

Amen.

[jmvargas]

[quote name='golfsavvy' timestamp='1351670792' post='5871247']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351639361' post='5869499']
There is a big difference in a great golf swing and a great golfer. Some are both.
[/quote]

Amen.
[/quote]


..one of the best sentences related to golf i've read in a long time!!!

[gators78]

Tiger was blowing away fields by 5+ strokes at a time but he thought he was 'one dimensional' and blew everything up.

Rory is also winning majors by massive margins and now he too is 'one dimensional.'


I'm not so sure it's a problem being one dimensional if you can turn it on 4-5 times per year and just annihilate the field.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1351691441' post='5871829']
Tiger was blowing away fields by 5+ strokes at a time but he thought he was 'one dimensional' and blew everything up.

Rory is also winning majors by massive margins and now he too is 'one dimensional.'


I'm not so sure it's a problem being one dimensional if you can turn it on 4-5 times per year and just annihilate the field.
[/quote]
He's won two majors. And winning with a huge lead is a lot easier than someone breathing down your neck. Like I said he will be a hall of famer but he could be one of the best ever. When Tiger was one dimensional he was 1st in total driving, 1st in GIR, and 1st in ball striking. When Tiger was one dimensional the ball didn't curve much and he hit it very straight. Rory is outside the top 50 in both total driving and GIR while being 47th in ball striking. His ball tends to curve a lot off the tee which is why he is 155th in driving accuracy. Ball striking wise Tiger was ahead of Rory in fairways hit, GIR, total driving, and ball striking this year. Rory could improve his swing, especially with driver to hit more fairways, which would give him a chance to win more majors and not just when he has everything perfect. He won the PGA but finished 40th at Augusta, MC at the US Open and t60 at the British Open. He also missed the cut at The Players hitting it all over the place. He had a 5 tournament stretch where he went MC, MC, 7th (Only hit 46% of fairways and 58% of greens that week), MC, and t60. I like Rory and think he is good for the game, but I also see how scary good he could be and hopefully will be if he drives it in play. Just because there is room for improvement doesn't mean I'm saying he is terrible, he can stay one dimensional but do it with less curve and will be way better off.

[Jim Waldron]

James Hahn has one of the best pivots through the ball I have ever seen - perfect blend of spine angle, side tilt and rotation. Great work, Dan!

[Jim Waldron]

The Rory swing debate is an interesting one. One of my students roomed with Rory during their junior playing years, and played a lot of rounds with him (Dave if you are reading this please feel free to chime in, your input would be fantastic!) and we were discussing Rory's swing and he made the point that Rory always swung the club this way, even as a little kid. He told me that his swing really has not changed very much at all since he was ten years old. Dan is right though, he does swing his path too much in to out sometimes, especially with the driver, which causes some big misses. I recall that during his mini-slump earlier this summer, he told a tv interviewer that he was working with his teacher on the exact opposite issue, coming OTT during Transition, causing a too steep angle of attack into the ball. So I guess he has both flaws that pop up randomly, a two way miss, not a good thing.


The question of "would you change his swing" is a challenging one, since the thing I like the most about Rory's swing is the perfect Balance, and outstanding freedom of motion, especially during Release, consistsently smooth Tempo and fluid Rhythm. Kind of old school or Sneadish in that regard. The issue is, could he change to a more technically sound motion without also losing that wonderful rhythm, tempo, balance and freedom? Many pros would indeed (and have!) lost those fantastic qualites if they went for the technical change.

If I were advising the Rory who wished to make that change - mostly a Transition issue - I would recommend trying it ONLY through slow motion mirror work, especiallly so in the early stagess of training, and NOT something to try to acheive at normal full speed tempo. Then test it to see if the brain/body accepted the slow motion training with actual improved body motion. With a player like Rory, the change will only be ultimately successful when at least a moderate degree of success can be achieved relatively quickly. It cannot be a "struggle" - if it does become that, then you risk losing all of the other "natural" great qualities I mentioned. You need to find a way to retain some degree of the student;s "naturalness" when making a swing change.

[jebb]

That's one very nice swing right there Dan.

I will watch this guy's progress with interest and good luck to both of you.

[airjammer]

Boy what I would give to have that much room for my elbow on the downswing!! Great swing!

[tylerdurden]

iteachgolf -

Congrats on James Hahn. He has a beautiful swing that obviously produces results.

I have a question about his release pattern I'm hoping you can help me understand. To be honest, I'm pretty brain washed from obsessing over Hogan's swing and thinking Hogan's release pattern is the only way to hit the ball. James is obviously at the other end of the spectrum, as his arms chase away from the body through impact and the club appears to turn down faster. Not too different from Tiger 2000 or Adam Scott.

I guess my question is, do you view his release as flawed, or as an area where he could improve? When I watch James' swing (and Tiger from 2000) I automatically think that the impact dynamics are a weak spot. But at the same time, I know these guys can hit the ball really well, so I am kind of confusing myself because on one hand I think their impact isn't ideal and on the other I know they hit the ball so well. So I'm confused and hope you or someone can clarify.

[irish jim]

I was wondering if Jim could elaborate on how Rory's transition could be improved. There is such a thin line between coming over the top slightly on transition or conversely having a bit too much right shoulder tilt causing an in to out path at impact.

[gators78]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1351695783' post='5872203']
[quote name='gators78' timestamp='1351691441' post='5871829']
Tiger was blowing away fields by 5+ strokes at a time but he thought he was 'one dimensional' and blew everything up.

Rory is also winning majors by massive margins and now he too is 'one dimensional.'


I'm not so sure it's a problem being one dimensional if you can turn it on 4-5 times per year and just annihilate the field.
[/quote]
He's won two majors. And winning with a huge lead is a lot easier than someone breathing down your neck. Like I said he will be a hall of famer but he could be one of the best ever. When Tiger was one dimensional he was 1st in total driving, 1st in GIR, and 1st in ball striking. When Tiger was one dimensional the ball didn't curve much and he hit it very straight. Rory is outside the top 50 in both total driving and GIR while being 47th in ball striking. His ball tends to curve a lot off the tee which is why he is 155th in driving accuracy. Ball striking wise Tiger was ahead of Rory in fairways hit, GIR, total driving, and ball striking this year. Rory could improve his swing, especially with driver to hit more fairways, which would give him a chance to win more majors and not just when he has everything perfect. He won the PGA but finished 40th at Augusta, MC at the US Open and t60 at the British Open. He also missed the cut at The Players hitting it all over the place. He had a 5 tournament stretch where he went MC, MC, 7th (Only hit 46% of fairways and 58% of greens that week), MC, and t60. I like Rory and think he is good for the game, but I also see how scary good he could be and hopefully will be if he drives it in play. Just because there is room for improvement doesn't mean I'm saying he is terrible, [u]he can stay one dimensional but do it with less curve and will be way better of[/u]f.
[/quote]

So, I wasn't directing this at you personally, just thinking out loud really, and your final point I agree with.

[iteachgolf]

iteachgolf -

 

Congrats on James Hahn. He has a beautiful swing that obviously produces results.

 

I have a question about his release pattern I'm hoping you can help me understand. To be honest, I'm pretty brain washed from obsessing over Hogan's swing and thinking Hogan's release pattern is the only way to hit the ball. James is obviously at the other end of the spectrum, as his arms chase away from the body through impact and the club appears to turn down faster. Not too different from Tiger 2000 or Adam Scott.

 

I guess my question is, do you view his release as flawed, or as an area where he could improve? When I watch James' swing (and Tiger from 2000) I automatically think that the impact dynamics are a weak spot. But at the same time, I know these guys can hit the ball really well, so I am kind of confusing myself because on one hand I think their impact isn't ideal and on the other I know they hit the ball so well. So I'm confused and hope you or someone can clarify.

Not sure I see what you see when you say other end of spectrum. I don't see arms chase away from the body and club turn down

[hoganfan924]

Mickelson, Fowler, Singh are the other end of the spectrum. That's why you've got to regularly look at all kinds of swings or you develop a bias as to what constitutes "average.". Hahn is much closer to Hogan than Mickelson

[tylerdurden]

iteachgolf -

 

Congrats on James Hahn. He has a beautiful swing that obviously produces results.

 

I have a question about his release pattern I'm hoping you can help me understand. To be honest, I'm pretty brain washed from obsessing over Hogan's swing and thinking Hogan's release pattern is the only way to hit the ball. James is obviously at the other end of the spectrum, as his arms chase away from the body through impact and the club appears to turn down faster. Not too different from Tiger 2000 or Adam Scott.

 

I guess my question is, do you view his release as flawed, or as an area where he could improve? When I watch James' swing (and Tiger from 2000) I automatically think that the impact dynamics are a weak spot. But at the same time, I know these guys can hit the ball really well, so I am kind of confusing myself because on one hand I think their impact isn't ideal and on the other I know they hit the ball so well. So I'm confused and hope you or someone can clarify.

Not sure I see what you see when you say other end of spectrum. I don't see arms chase away from the body and club turn down

 

I ment with that driver swing that you posted. I didn't see this iron swing.

 

And honestly I am not trying to criticise you or his action at all. I'm really just trying to get a better understanding.

[iteachgolf]

Arms wont move as far left as soon with driver. Ball is being hit off a tee and from a much shallower AOA. His path is still right around zero to a touch left with driver. If he looked the same with driver as he does with 7 iron it'd be steep low spinny cuts.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='irish jim' timestamp='1351705936' post='5873227']
I was wondering if Jim could elaborate on how Rory's transition could be improved. There is such a thin line between coming over the top slightly on transition or conversely having a bit too much right shoulder tilt causing an in to out path at impact.
[/quote]

Like so many swing issues, you first need to find the two extremes, as you state so well. Then - you can find the "balance point" right in the middle. Right spine tilt can be too much, too little or just right. And same for upper arm rotation, too much and you shallow the shaft plane too much, and your path becomes too much in to out. These are just some general observations, I would have to spend a lot more of my time closely analyzing Rory's action from several different angles to come up with an actual recommendation that one could rely on.

One can play around with this dynamically for the advanced player by isolating either the arm rotation or the side tilt, and trying to hit a push or pull by altering path dramatically, ie through exagerration of that swing piece in both directions - too much, too little. Then - see if you can hit the ball dead straight, ie zero out the path. Clearly identify the sensations in the body part in question that allows one to hit it straight, and repeat many, many times.