Can someone explain the Hogan obsession?

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1357322850' post='6167713']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357316569' post='6167095']
While you don't have to say always positive things about hogan in hogan's heroes...it makes most sense that you go in there because you have an interest in him...and I mean interest in a positive way. If you go in there just to talk about him in a negative way when people are in there trying to learn from the man or just marvelling at his abilty and you are there acting like a toad...then expect to be treated like a porker.

Fair ain't it?
[/quote]
What? This is supposed to be some kind of shrine? To a golfer? Give us a break! This is a forum, not the church of hogan.
[/quote]

Never said any of that. Just if you go to a place where people are getting along doing their thing because of a common interest and you come from the outside with another view or opinion or flavor or whatever and in a negative sense you will probably be treated as such.

Think cat walking into a group of dogs playing around. Or you go into a math class saying haha you losers why you like math so much. There's no shrine or religious fanaticism involving the math...just that you are not allowing them to enjoy what they enjoy doing.

If you come in and try to challenge them by questioning stuff that's great. It's actually the point of a forum.

What a shame...and I was going to go to you for all my canadian bacon needs.

[nbg352]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357323225' post='6167763']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1357322850' post='6167713']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357316569' post='6167095']
While you don't have to say always positive things about hogan in hogan's heroes...it makes most sense that you go in there because you have an interest in him...and I mean interest in a positive way. If you go in there just to talk about him in a negative way when people are in there trying to learn from the man or just marvelling at his abilty and you are there acting like a toad...then expect to be treated like a porker.

Fair ain't it?
[/quote]
What? This is supposed to be some kind of shrine? To a golfer? Give us a break! This is a forum, not the church of hogan.
[/quote]

Never said any of that. Just if you go to a place where people are getting along doing their thing because of a common interest and you come from the outside with another view or opinion or flavor or whatever and in a negative sense you will probably be treated as such.

Think cat walking into a group of dogs playing around. Or you go into a math class saying haha you losers why you like math so much. There's no shrine or religious fanaticism involving the math...just that you are not allowing them to enjoy what they enjoy doing.

If you come in and try to challenge them by questioning stuff that's great. It's actually the point of a forum.

What a shame...and I was going to go to you for all my canadian bacon needs.
[/quote]
I never go to a forum ready to bash. But if I have a question that goes against the grain, I expect that I'll get a civil, respectful answer. Not a lecture on behaviour within the topic. With all due respect, there are other golfers I'll follow who deserve to be on a pedestal as big or bigger than the one Hogan graces here. Where there are no secrets or buried treasure, neither of which will ever be found, except in ones imaginitive mind..
But, that doesn't mean I won't share the bacon with you.

[isaacbm]

There's so many reasons.

1. It's fun to search for the answers
2. Hogan had mystique and people are drawn to that
3. Hogan had ability and people respect that
4. Hogan was an American hero (ticker tape parade, sacrificed himself for his wife, came up from nothing, self made man)

Now here's where it gets a little off to me personally but that's just me...

5. People are convinced that the answer to him playing well lies in his golf swing and if they can somehow copy it then they will play well too.
6. He was the first pro golfer of high fame to write a book about the technical aspects of the game so people somehow feel he must be very good at communicating his thoughts even though the book is not that black in white in a lot of ways.
7. The modern instruction world has a lot at stake in getting people to buy into the golf swing model theory and it's great to point to people in the past as examples to prove what you're teaching especially since they can't refute what your teaching because they have passed on.
8. For some reason, people assume that if they can imitate someone else, (or at least what they think someone else was doing) then they will be as good as that person.


The bottom line is that its each to his own. Everyone is on their own journey in this game and a lot of people believe that copying Hogan will help them.

I don't personally agree but if you're going to copy someone, there are certainly worse people to choose so go for it.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='MelloYello' timestamp='1357323025' post='6167733']

The story is great, but I don't think it actually has much to do with why people are so fascinated by Ben Hogan.

I remember the first time I saw a video of Hogan. I just saw something there. Some magic. I was unable to take my eyes off it. I couldn't tell you what it was but before ever knowing about the accident or his time off during the war (which was more or less true of everyone at the time) or his father or his relationship with other players, I wanted to keep watching this guy.

That's the reason people like Hogan I think. The swing was just so beautiful that you could watch it for hours and fall into a trance. Plus, as I said above, he existed in a time when men's golf had a sex appeal it doesn't now. Golf in the 50s produced some figures that simply had more charisma than anything we've seen since.

I think the details of Ben Hogan's story help to sustain his legend but I don't think they are the root cause. Even the immense success Hogan had throughout his career was, to me, more of a justification for those who study him rather than a cause. People don't automatically chase the most successful thing or cling to a heroic story for this long.

Whatever makes Hogan such a mythic figure--I think--is something you experience the very first time you see him. Whatever that magic is, that's what makes a myth sustainable.
[/quote]

I understand completely what you're saying here and agree with it to some extent. But we have to keep in mind that before youtube, Hogan footage was quite sparse. I read 5L and developed an interest in Hogan long before ever seeing a Hogan swing. I agree that the resurgence in Hogan interest has a lot to do with more readily available footage but also with forums like this.

If it were mostly about the mesmerizing swing, why didn't Snead or Tiger have the same effect?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wc9Wb9JKpTE

[MizunoJoe]

Hogan's swing is fascinating because after all the still pics, video swings, his books, his demos, his interviews, and "expert" analyses, it's not clear that anyone has totally figured it out.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1357324577' post='6167901']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357323225' post='6167763']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1357322850' post='6167713']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357316569' post='6167095']
While you don't have to say always positive things about hogan in hogan's heroes...it makes most sense that you go in there because you have an interest in him...and I mean interest in a positive way. If you go in there just to talk about him in a negative way when people are in there trying to learn from the man or just marvelling at his abilty and you are there acting like a toad...then expect to be treated like a porker.

Fair ain't it?
[/quote]
What? This is supposed to be some kind of shrine? To a golfer? Give us a break! This is a forum, not the church of hogan.
[/quote]

Never said any of that. Just if you go to a place where people are getting along doing their thing because of a common interest and you come from the outside with another view or opinion or flavor or whatever and in a negative sense you will probably be treated as such.

Think cat walking into a group of dogs playing around. Or you go into a math class saying haha you losers why you like math so much. There's no shrine or religious fanaticism involving the math...just that you are not allowing them to enjoy what they enjoy doing.

If you come in and try to challenge them by questioning stuff that's great. It's actually the point of a forum.

What a shame...and I was going to go to you for all my canadian bacon needs.
[/quote]
I never go to a forum ready to bash. But if I have a question that goes against the grain, I expect that I'll get a civil, respectful answer. Not a lecture on behaviour within the topic. With all due respect, there are other golfers I'll follow who deserve to be on a pedestal as big or bigger than the one Hogan graces here. Where there are no secrets or buried treasure, neither of which will ever be found, except in ones imaginitive mind..
But, that doesn't mean I won't share the bacon with you.
[/quote]

I think you are free to (and i'm very happy if you do) question all you want...particularly if it's against the grain. That's great!

It's just if you are being a salami about it (not that i'm saying you are)...then expect to get a salami to the face. That's all.

[MelloYello]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1357325083' post='6167981']
[quote name='MelloYello' timestamp='1357323025' post='6167733']
The story is great, but I don't think it actually has much to do with why people are so fascinated by Ben Hogan.

I remember the first time I saw a video of Hogan. I just saw something there. Some magic. I was unable to take my eyes off it. I couldn't tell you what it was but before ever knowing about the accident or his time off during the war (which was more or less true of everyone at the time) or his father or his relationship with other players, I wanted to keep watching this guy.

That's the reason people like Hogan I think. The swing was just so beautiful that you could watch it for hours and fall into a trance. Plus, as I said above, he existed in a time when men's golf had a sex appeal it doesn't now. Golf in the 50s produced some figures that simply had more charisma than anything we've seen since.

I think the details of Ben Hogan's story help to sustain his legend but I don't think they are the root cause. Even the immense success Hogan had throughout his career was, to me, more of a justification for those who study him rather than a cause. People don't automatically chase the most successful thing or cling to a heroic story for this long.

Whatever makes Hogan such a mythic figure--I think--is something you experience the very first time you see him. Whatever that magic is, that's what makes a myth sustainable.
[/quote]

I understand completely what you're saying here and agree with it to some extent. But we have to keep in mind that before youtube, Hogan footage was quite sparse. I read 5L and developed an interest in Hogan long before ever seeing a Hogan swing. I agree that the resurgence in Hogan interest has a lot to do with more readily available footage but also with forums like this.

If it were mostly about the mesmerizing swing, why didn't Snead or Tiger have the same effect?


[/quote]

Well, in my view there actually is a reason that many other great swings haven't taken the golf world by storm. Most of the time the causes are reasonable and easier to understand.

Starting with Tiger Woods. There wasn't a lot unique in Tiger Wood's golf swing even at it's peak. It's was sharp and honed but it wasn't a motion the golf world was unfamiliar with. It was the product of good instruction. He was doing everything good players were "supposed" to do. The athleticism, talent and ego were what made it all special. Tom Watson would be another good model who hasn't had the "mystery" attached either. When he wasn't on, he blocked a lot of shots like Tiger did but had a motion that was indicative of teaching at the time--Johnny Miller, too. Other players like Ernie Els and Fred Couples have the type of popularity we're talking about but simply work on individual frameworks that most players can't admit to having. Ernie's big with great tempo and Couples is far more flexible that most with a heap of talent for the game.

In terms of Snead, I think that while the rhythm and popularity was there the look probably wasn't, not to mention the mechanics. Snead got by I think on a lot more natural talent than Hogan and through that probably had a less proper swing in term of mechanics. I believe most everyone, even Snead fans, admit that. It boils down to something simpler though I think. I remember Elkington's phrase: "a flash a geometry." That's exactly the type of thing that you see in Hogan's swing that you don't in even some of the best swings. In other words, it was simply better looking, even if it wasn't as easy to reproduce.

What made Hogan popular in his time is what makes any player popular. They are good at what they do and they look good. Ben Hogan was a wonderful looking man who looked even better playing the sport in which he enjoyed so much success. The average golfer at the time wasn't aware of how involved Ben Hogan was in his swing. I believe Hogan did a lot to discuss the swing with interviewers but as was pointed out his teachings were in many cases focused of more general and fundamental concepts than they were exacting mechanics.

What has made Hogan so popular since then I think is both the story-telling the "original" Hogan disciples as well as the footage that numerous golf pros have obsessed over to help make the study of Hogan's swing more of a "club" now than ever. The advent of YouTube has only increased the number of people obsessing over the footage. Tiger Woods has even commented on watching the infamous "Shell's" episode over and over watching both Hogan and Snead.

[Timanator]

What made me in awe of Mr Hogan is the fluidity of that swing on film. A very graceful and powerful move that ended in a beautiful fully extended finishing. It's like art, mesmerizing to see it so smooth and perfect. And his records spoke for it's self even with the accident. the war, the upbringing. If there is ever an American icon, Mr Hogan would serve to be the definition.

[MadGolfer76]

A little off topic, but just wanted to offer my apologies to any I might have offended with my initial post in this thread. I won't say I didn't mean what I said, but didn't expect this to get transferred to the Hogan forum where discussions can be a bit more sensitive (and I mean that in a good way).

[bscinstnct]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1357337477' post='6169381']
What made me in awe of Mr Hogan is the fluidity of that swing on film. A very graceful and powerful move that ended in a beautiful fully extended finishing. It's like art, mesmerizing to see it so smooth and perfect. And his records spoke for it's self even with the accident. the war, the upbringing. If there is ever an American icon, Mr Hogan would serve to be the definition.
[/quote]

Yes, the swing is a masterpiece.

Within the violence there is peace. Once it starts, you can't see where one part ends and the other begins.

Every action has a reaction. Hogans swing has married every one of these contrary movements perfectly.

[Lefthook]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1357345611' post='6170101']
A little off topic, but just wanted to offer my apologies to any I might have offended with my initial post in this thread. I won't say I didn't mean what I said, but didn't expect this to get transferred to the Hogan forum where discussions can be a bit more sensitive (and I mean that in a good way).
[/quote]

No need to apologize IMO, and I'm a Hogan fan btw. This has turned out to be an interesting discussion.

[RBImGuy]

NOTE: i know this is going to annoy a lot of people im just looking for an explanation of why.

 

Can someone explain to me why many have such an unbelievable obsession with trying to figure out Hogans secret or copy hogans swing.

 

It took hogan countless of hours per day every day for years to 'perfect' his golf swing, now how do people expect to copy this with no where near as much time let a lone talent?

 

Hogans ballstriking was exemplory for 2 years or so pre accident? Boo Weekley has now topped the ball striking stats 2 years running now on the pga tour with modern equipment, modern courses and modern conditions, should we all be trying to copy his move? if he could remotely putt im sure he wouldve won much more than he has, with those ball striking stats its unreal that he hasnt.

 

Now im not saying Boo is better than Ben, im just trying to understand the fascination with a golf swing that most of us have only even seen on video on youtube, how many of the top players in the world now swing like hogan, mahan? garcia? dufner? and countless that dont. theres more than one way to get the job done, why not focus on basic things like turning the shoulders 90 degrees to the spine and making things easy than countless manipulations at positions that took one of the most talented golfers ever thousands of hours to ingrain?

 

People want the secret and mystery not the truth.

None have been able to copy Ben Hogan and wont be able to.

Boo weekley has mental issues with his putting and needs to approach that differently and he be nr1 in the world.

if he wants that is another matter tho.

 

dont need to copy Hogan if your able to do things properly in the golf motion this will happen.

same release as Hogan.

 

[guisician]

Why Hogan?

We need heroes.

[Thrillhouse]

The difference between hogan and the others like Nelson or Snead or jones is twofold to me.

1. People gravitate towards him because he went from being a not so good tour player who hooked it off the planet to a legend through hard work. People want to believe if they work hard they can achieve great things too, and if they keep it in context (eg. I'm going to work my 4 handicap down to a 1) they usually can. the poster who said "because we need heroes" is right.

2. He had it written down. This affords people the opportunity to learn about what he did, no other great player left anything like that behind, if they had people would likely have a following too, maybe not to this extent but they would have one.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357319241' post='6167389']
[quote name='davekzg' timestamp='1357317962' post='6167261']
so with all these posts and topics has anyone worked it out and achieved ball striking similar to hogans?
[/quote]

ben hogan swing project is his clone...except has a bit more of a tan and larger jugs. He refuses to show me his ball flight though.
[/quote]

Lolollololololol!!! How did I miss this thread?!? When Kim gets tired of my golfing madness and leaves me, I'm gonna use tembolos description of me in online singles ads.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1357523737' post='6180935']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357319241' post='6167389']
[quote name='davekzg' timestamp='1357317962' post='6167261']
so with all these posts and topics has anyone worked it out and achieved ball striking similar to hogans?
[/quote]

ben hogan swing project is his clone...except has a bit more of a tan and larger jugs. He refuses to show me his ball flight though.
[/quote]

Lolollololololol!!! How did I miss this thread?!? When Kim gets tired of my golfing madness and leaves me, I'm gonna use tembolos description of me in online singles ads.
[/quote]

I should charge you for that.

[ej002]

Someone explains it very well here:


[quote name='MelloYello' timestamp='1361454135' post='6471049']
There's a lineage in golf of which Hogan is a part. Hogan had influences just as he in turn influenced many people and had many disciplies of his own who carried his teachings throughout the following decades on the 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Today, we see many of the disciples having influenced great players of the last 20 years.

Hogan pieced together his swing from what he saw around him from the time he was a young man in the caddie yard or Glen Garden CC. He saw individual things which better players did and he strived--just as we all would--to make attempts to incorporate those techniques. In the end, he wound up with a variety of things which worked well enough together to win tournaments but he also stood as a great example of a variety of ideas. His lower body motions were copied. His waggle was copied. He take-away was copied. The point is that almost anything Hogan did, he probably saw somewhere else with envy and admiration.

Therefore, we can safely say that the true glory of Hogan was how much he compiled into 1 golf swing. It's to no end an incredible thing that we can watch a Hogan real and cite a dozen or more 'textbook' examples of how to achieve what are today considered standard practices. [i]This[/i] is what your left knee should look like[i], that [/i]is good footwork, [i]this [/i]is a one-piece takeaway, [i]that [/i]is a lateral bump, [i]this [/i]is connection, etc, etc, etc.

It's no great mystery then why someone would look to even the minute details of Hogan's swing to find answers; sub-topics to each of those chapters. If there's one thing about the golf swing which mirrors life it's that we are all tragically disconnected is such a way that we may never know exactly what the guy standing next to us telling us about his swing is really feeling inside. And so, in many ways we strive to erase as much doubt as possible through more mechanically-descriptive means of substituting [i]something[/i] for the inherent nothing that exists between us and each other.

It's good to stand back every once in awhile and remember what it's all about, but it's really all in the effort to better understand something which may help make us better and paint a more accurate picture of Hogan and his work.

Looking at research in any field and you'll say that each small project or experiement in and of itself weighs an infinitesimal amount compared with the sum of human knowledge, but in time those small bits of learning get pieced together to form the next big step. 50 years of studying Hogan has given us what we have. If you're going to discuss him on a day-to-day basis, it's going to get tedious. That's not for everyone but in reality, as Hogan's actual diciplies begin to disappear and we find ourselves more and more removed from the actual man himself, the only natural process is to begin our own comprehensive approach to understanding his work.

Remember, Hogan spent hours learning, working, discussing and developing each small thing he tried and so did his mentors and students. To think that somehow there's more going on in a thread here than was talked about in Hogan's personal teaching just isn't giving Hogan--or golf instruction in general--enough credence. Students will always have questions and this forum, so much as I see it, is more connected with actually [u]practicing[/u] and [u]playing[/u] than any other on this site...

...take that for what it's worth.
[/quote]

[tembolo1284]

So was the Hogan obsession explained well enough to everyone's satisfaction?

[Pinsplitter59]

Looks like Obsession Recession.
This forum has gone so quiet recently, where are the radical theorists and weird analyzers?
Is everyone tired of the Hogan thing like me, I give up, its the seven year itch, time for a divorce, get me out of here, it hurts too much...
Nobody knows and noone ever will, soon noone will care, we will only see his name on cheap Walmart shirts.
Saint John of the Cross was famous once.. yeah you've never heard of him!
Stairway to Heaven could have been based on his writings.
The 39 Steps or the Five Lessons, the Ten Steps or the Five Little Monkeys?
My only reason now to haunt this forum is the desperate hope i might see a photo of Tembolo addressing the ball in heels and fishnets.
(what is this little green pill the doctor gave me?)

[dlygrisse]

After much hard work and little success his game turned around rapidly.
Rumor has it he had a secret that fixed his swing.
5 Lessons is published and there is no secret! gasp!T
Life magazine article is published with the secret revealed but it doesnt work for anyone!? "There has to be more?"
In the 1980's there was a published article in Golf Digest saying that the magazine was offering Hogan something like 100K to reveal the "real secret". Hogan held out for more money, the deal was never done, a few years later Hogan takes his secret to the grave.
Golf Digest then runs a article analyzing what the secret could be.....everyone who knew him had a different explanation.

All the speculation is fun stuff on the internet, and the legend of Hogan is now greater than it was when he played. Fact is he was a great ball striker, but he did on occasion miss a fairway and a green or two. Although I am sure by stating this fact I might have just offended a few in a spiritual way.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1369310038' post='7090816']
Looks like Obsession Recession.
This forum has gone so quiet recently, where are the radical theorists and weird analyzers?
Is everyone tired of the Hogan thing like me, I give up, its the seven year itch, time for a divorce, get me out of here, it hurts too much...
Nobody knows and noone ever will, soon noone will care, we will only see his name on cheap Walmart shirts.
Saint John of the Cross was famous once.. yeah you've never heard of him!
Stairway to Heaven could have been based on his writings.
The 39 Steps or the Five Lessons, the Ten Steps or the Five Little Monkeys?
My only reason now to haunt this forum is the desperate hope i might see a photo of Tembolo addressing the ball in heels and fishnets.
(what is this little green pill the doctor gave me?)
[/quote]

You know...You just might see that yet! Fishnets though? In Pink or lace black?

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1369794559' post='7124956']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1369310038' post='7090816']
Looks like Obsession Recession.
This forum has gone so quiet recently, where are the radical theorists and weird analyzers?
Is everyone tired of the Hogan thing like me, I give up, its the seven year itch, time for a divorce, get me out of here, it hurts too much...
Nobody knows and noone ever will, soon noone will care, we will only see his name on cheap Walmart shirts.
Saint John of the Cross was famous once.. yeah you've never heard of him!
Stairway to Heaven could have been based on his writings.
The 39 Steps or the Five Lessons, the Ten Steps or the Five Little Monkeys?
My only reason now to haunt this forum is the desperate hope i might see a photo of Tembolo addressing the ball in heels and fishnets.
(what is this little green pill the doctor gave me?)
[/quote]

You know...You just might see that yet! Fishnets though? In Pink or lace black?
[/quote]

Salami mauve with little hearts.

[tembolo1284]

So do we have the obsession all figured out?

[tembolo1284]

tyler?

[ScooterMcTavish]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1357323225' post='6167763']
What a shame...and I was going to go to you for all my canadian bacon needs.
[/quote]

Incredibly easy to make at home - PM me and I'll let you know the recipe. However, this is the "real" Canadian bacon, not that ham-like substance you see on $3.00 "Canadian Bacon" pizzas at Wal-Mart. My kids love the stuff.

And Hogan? It was and will always be the flat cap. I rock that look myself.

[Jericho]

I think its 2-fold:

1) Slicefixer is obviously the most prominent teacher on the internet, and he more or less introduced the CP (non-flip) release to the internet. He had a student that was able to pretty much duplicate Hogan's positions in still photos (the actual swing didnt look like Hogan but the positions were dead on)

and

2) Once you did some research on Slicefixer, you obviously heard stories about Hogan. The more you read about him the more fascinating he became. His story is inspiring, his attitude was the first of its kind, and his swing looks so easy to duplicate.

So add the intrigue along with the thought that his swing can be copied and you have the golfing world obsessed with Hogan.

Be honest, did you ever go through a period where you tried your hardest to copy his swing. You felt like you had it perfect, even if video proved otherwise, had some success, then it went away and you realized that unless you live in Texarkana, you probably won't learn the swing on your own. You still respect Hogan and love reading about him, but you've moved on and no longer obsess over his unobtainable swing.

I'll be the first to raise my hand and admit to it

[tembolo1284]

Still think about this and say the Hogan obsession is justified.

[Huntster]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377109994' post='7720328']
Still think about this and say the Hogan obsession is justified.
[/quote]

Is it wrong the not really care about the history of things? I just don't have an interest in things I didn't see for myself. The same way for all sports. Guess I am weird like that.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Huntster' timestamp='1377110461' post='7720370']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1377109994' post='7720328']
Still think about this and say the Hogan obsession is justified.
[/quote]

Is it wrong the not really care about the history of things? I just don't have an interest in things I didn't see for myself. The same way for all sports. Guess I am weird like that.
[/quote]

Perfectly understandable. I really like reading about the history and time in which he played and what he encountered. Adds to it. Same with Bob Jones and Walter Hagen. Insane times to be alive.

[itsjappo]

Personally, I do it because I can relate to the man. I'm sure he can to lots of people since he was just a normal guy who had to teach himself by trial and error. Through hard work and dedication, he was able to "master" it. Something that all of us are chasing.