Keeping with the history and spirit of the game, does the 16th go against it?

[tbowles411]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1360010576' post='6362271']
The distinction between the 16th and every other hole in golf is pretty clear. If by "spirit of the game" you mean the traditional behavior of gallery's and how they normally cheer, clap etc The difference is obvious. Why some are so bothered by this once a year, grass roots phenomena is beyond me.

Some people are just anti-fun and anti-different. Augusta is awesome, I LOVE the masters, but that doesn't mean I can't also love the antithesis of the Masters. the 16th is awesome and it cant be replicated.
[/quote]
I like the idea of just one hole in the grand scheme of things and I'm not the most traditional guy when it comes to golf. But I also believe in some decorum. I found myself watching both the tournament and the side coverage yesterday to see if they can stand up to the pressure of having 10,000 eyes on them at once in an enclosed area. I'm all for the hole because the party atmosphere is contained in one area. It's not hurting anyone. It's not a big deal to me.

[spooky]

[quote name='TJCDAS' timestamp='1359991546' post='6360299']
Golf is suppose to be fun
[/quote]
Who on earth told you that?!?

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1360005225' post='6361609']
The spirit of the game used to include discrimination against certain races and women also.
[/quote]
No, that was a wider problem of society and nothing unique to golf.

I expect most people associate the spirit of the game as being related to behaving like a gentleman. Perhaps that is why it seems an odd idea these days.

[Jim Clark]

This:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pcnFbCCgTo4

It's a classic.

Sometimes we take this game too seriously.

[oldyaler]

I remember back in the early eighties at The Greater Greensboro Open there was one hole where all the "rowdies" hung out. The players and fans always seemed to enjoy that little "distraction."

[mr smith]

Party holes should be mandantory for all tour stops, especially majors. Booing bad shots and heckling should be embraced by players, not cause them to have hissy fits like gmac. Find me a single person who didnt find that "yabba dabba doo!" funny.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='mr smith' timestamp='1360028948' post='6364295']

The nark who started this thread really needs to lighten up. Unless it was a troll, in which I will say well played sir.
[/quote]

Perhaps you should actually read the original post.

[mr smith]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1360029357' post='6364339']
[quote name='mr smith' timestamp='1360028948' post='6364295']

The nark who started this thread really needs to lighten up. Unless it was a troll, in which I will say well played sir.
[/quote]

Perhaps you should actually read the original post.
[/quote]
Got confused with a later poster. Fixed.

[Hawkeye77]

For starters, there is already a thread about the 16th, the OP isn't breaking new ground.

The discrimination reference was uncalled for in the context of a discussion about a carnival atmosphere.

I am very " traditional". I think on a percentage basis there are fewer playing the game now with respect for its spirit and tradition. Without getting into all that, I don't have a problem with the 16th once a year. It's entertaining.

Listening to Rex Hoggard suggest a stadium atmosphere for the 18th at Quail Hollow, yes the 18th hole, reminded me how little he really gets golf, except on a superficial level.

The PGA Tour has been zipping along just fine without stadium holes, and clearly doesn't need them. Nice distraction that works in Phoenix (until it inevitably goes too far).

I do think one of the reasons it works is because it has grown relatively naturally. Sports often goes south when it tries to duplicate successes artificially.

[Frankie Lob Wedge]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1360030618' post='6364463']
For starters, there is already a thread about the 16th, the OP isn't breaking new ground.

The discrimination reference was uncalled for in the context of a discussion about a carnival atmosphere.

I am very " traditional". I think on a percentage basis there are fewer playing the game now with respect for its spirit and tradition. Without getting into all that, I don't have a problem with the 16th once a year. It's entertaining.

Listening to Rex Hoggard suggest a stadium atmosphere for the 18th at Quail Hollow, yes the 18th hole, reminded me how little he really gets golf, except on a superficial level.

The PGA Tour has been zipping along just fine without stadium holes, and clearly doesn't need them. Nice distraction that works in Phoenix (until it inevitably goes too far).

I do think one of the reasons it works is because it has grown relatively naturally. Sports often goes south when it tries to duplicate successes artificially.
[/quote]

+1

Do they have a stadium hole at Augusta or Saint Andrews for drunken and boorish riff raff?

[mr smith]

[quote name='Frankie Lob Wedge' timestamp='1360031835' post='6364559']
[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1360030618' post='6364463']
For starters, there is already a thread about the 16th, the OP isn't breaking new ground.

The discrimination reference was uncalled for in the context of a discussion about a carnival atmosphere.

I am very " traditional". I think on a percentage basis there are fewer playing the game now with respect for its spirit and tradition. Without getting into all that, I don't have a problem with the 16th once a year. It's entertaining.

Listening to Rex Hoggard suggest a stadium atmosphere for the 18th at Quail Hollow, yes the 18th hole, reminded me how little he really gets golf, except on a superficial level.

The PGA Tour has been zipping along just fine without stadium holes, and clearly doesn't need them. Nice distraction that works in Phoenix (until it inevitably goes too far).

I do think one of the reasons it works is because it has grown relatively naturally. Sports often goes south when it tries to duplicate successes artificially.
[/quote]

+1

Do they have a stadium hole at Augusta or Saint Andrews for drunken and boorish riff raff?
[/quote]
The 16th at augusta can get pretty loud on a sunday.

[MtlJeff]

People have this idea of absolutes that golf must fit into. You see the same thing with scores. Guys winning with -24 "isn't golf"....of course guys winning with +5 in a US open "isn't golf" either. Why does every hole, every tournament have to be the same? We are talking about 1 hole here. When Spike Lee starts attending the Barclays and jawing with players as they walk off greens, and players start kissing their biceps after a made putt then i'll say golf has really changed. Preserving the history and spirit of the game doesn't mean never changing anything

[Frankensteins Monster]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1360030618' post='6364463']
For starters, there is already a thread about the 16th, the OP isn't breaking new ground.

The discrimination reference was uncalled for in the context of a discussion about a carnival atmosphere.

I am very " traditional". I think on a percentage basis there are fewer playing the game now with respect for its spirit and tradition. Without getting into all that, I don't have a problem with the 16th once a year. It's entertaining.

Listening to Rex Hoggard suggest a stadium atmosphere for the 18th at Quail Hollow, yes the 18th hole, reminded me how little he really gets golf, except on a superficial level.

The PGA Tour has been zipping along just fine without stadium holes, and clearly doesn't need them. Nice distraction that works in Phoenix (until it inevitably goes too far).

I do think one of the reasons it works is because it has grown relatively naturally. Sports often goes south when it tries to duplicate successes artificially.
[/quote]

The point I was trying to make about discrimination through put the years of golf was the game has evolved from it's early 'Spirit of the game' which discrimination was a major part of and I'm glad to see the 16th hole has evolved from other aspects of the 'Spirit of the game' such as you need to be able to hear a bird fart in order to play the game. There needs to be an evolution to the game that will bring more players into it. The 16th is a welcomed sight to the golf world and the PGA Tour and the game of golf would be better for it if there were more stops like this. Of course it can get get out of hand but for the most part it's a pretty awesome environment, the 16th, and I wish there was more of it around.

[Frankensteins Monster]

[quote name='pgagreg1' timestamp='1360011036' post='6362311']
[quote name='BigLeftyinAZ' timestamp='1359990912' post='6360235']
I hate the 16th hole.I freel it's a total disrespect to the game.Golf is not a party and brings the wrong folks to the game.I don't want to get stuck behind that 4some
[/quote]

I keep hoping more of those "wrong folks" take up the game of golf. It would be a shame to see more golf courses closed because of the lack of golfers
[/quote]

Very well said. The game needs more people to play the game. I know "wrong folks" who took up the game and you know what, I've yet to have a problem with any of them being 'disrespectful' to the game.

[Hawkeye77]

Discrimination has never been part of the "spirit" of the game of golf. It's perpetuated by certain individuals and institutions. You are wrong.

[profsmitty]

Keep the 16th going in Arizona but understand it for what it is. It is a contrasting environment. It's your drunken uncle at the family reunion. We laugh at him because we only have to tolerate him for a couple of hours a year. If we had to clean up his messes 364 days a year, we probably wouldn't be as understanding or amused.

We don't find boorish behavior endearing if it is the standard, we find it uncontrollable and frightening. It's called chaos. One thing the spirit of golf isn't. It isn't chaotic.

[Frankensteins Monster]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1360070741' post='6366177']
Discrimination has never been part of the "spirit" of the game of golf. It's perpetuated by certain individuals and institutions. You are wrong.
[/quote]

Golf was an exclusive game where women were not allowed to play. So yes, golf's was a game that discriminated early on. Then the discrimination devolved to include class then race. So, you are wrong.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1360070741' post='6366177']
Discrimination has never been part of the "spirit" of the game of golf. It's perpetuated by certain individuals and institutions. You are wrong.
[/quote]

The problem is some of those individuals and institutions were/are where some of the biggest and most prestigious tournaments were or have been held. It's understandable why some folks continue to think golf is an elitist and very bigoted game. It is because in some places...it still very much is one.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that as it is a part of the history of the game. Just move forward and try to change it for the better...including for those people that maybe right now are not lucky enough to have that privilege.

[Sawgrass]

Golf has some terrible examples of discrimination in its history. (As, in fact, many, many institutions do.)

This does not mean that discrimination ever rose to being "the spirit of the game."

Complain about past discrimination, fight against current discrimination, but don't tell me that discrimination is the essence of golf.

[mwkbmw]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1360073297' post='6366323']
Golf has some terrible examples of discrimination in its history. (As, in fact, many, many institutions do.)

This does not mean that discrimination ever rose to being "the spirit of the game."

Complain about past discrimination, fight against current discrimination, but don't tell me that discrimination is the essence of golf.
[/quote]

This.

[profsmitty]

The spirit of the game is the solitary shepherd smacking rocks with his crook in the twilight of a Scottish evening, Golf is the pastime of that Shepherd and it always will be. Unfortunately golf cannot be isolated from cultures who imprint their marks on what is a very simple and noble concept. Nothing is immune from acculturation. Golf is no exception. But the spirit of the game is so powerful, it has survived in spite of all our attempts to adulterate it to suit our prejudices.

[ptjn1201]

I don't have a problem with the booing at 16 at all. It's completely unlike the Ryder Cup, where the home crowd might boo the opposition. It's really all in good fun. If you hit a poor shot, you get booed, has nothing to do with rooting for or against a player. I don't know if Jack Nicklaus cares for the stadium atmosphere, but I'm sure he would appreciate the difference between the boos at 16 for missing the green and the boos and heckling he got from Palmer fans in his early years on tour.

[Willie Malay]

Answer: Yes it does.
Is that a bad thing? No. It has it's place and it is awesome in my mind. Now, to copy that and do it on every hole? Not a chance. Even to copy it at another venue? I think that would do it a disservice. Leave it as a unique experience and leave it at that.
The booing is in fun and every player knows that.....or should. Every fan should know it too.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1360072585' post='6366265']
[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1360070741' post='6366177']
Discrimination has never been part of the "spirit" of the game of golf. It's perpetuated by certain individuals and institutions. You are wrong.
[/quote]

The problem is some of those individuals and institutions were/are where some of the biggest and most prestigious tournaments were or have been held. It's understandable why some folks continue to think golf is an elitist and very bigoted game. It is because in some places...it still very much is one.

There's nothing wrong with acknowledging that as it is a part of the history of the game. Just move forward and try to change it for the better...including for those people that maybe right now are not lucky enough to have that privilege.
[/quote]

I agree, well stated. My idea of the spirit of the game is more about the inherent challenges and joys and, for me, frustrations, not so much its institutions and history. I don't minimize at all the well-documented history of discrimination. I should have better defined my terms.

Amazing recent swing vids of yours in a different forum, by the way.

[bunter101]

[quote name='Frankie Lob Wedge' timestamp='1360031835' post='6364559']
[quote name='HAWKEYE77' timestamp='1360030618' post='6364463']
For starters, there is already a thread about the 16th, the OP isn't breaking new ground.

The discrimination reference was uncalled for in the context of a discussion about a carnival atmosphere.

I am very " traditional". I think on a percentage basis there are fewer playing the game now with respect for its spirit and tradition. Without getting into all that, I don't have a problem with the 16th once a year. It's entertaining.

Listening to Rex Hoggard suggest a stadium atmosphere for the 18th at Quail Hollow, yes the 18th hole, reminded me how little he really gets golf, except on a superficial level.

The PGA Tour has been zipping along just fine without stadium holes, and clearly doesn't need them. Nice distraction that works in Phoenix (until it inevitably goes too far).

I do think one of the reasons it works is because it has grown relatively naturally. Sports often goes south when it tries to duplicate successes artificially.
[/quote]

+1

Do they have a stadium hole at Augusta or Saint Andrews for drunken and boorish riff raff?
[/quote]

Yes, I think they call it the 19th hole....


The 16th is nothing... It's just a stage, the fans and players know what is what.

Now against the spirit of the game, Young Tom Morris went to Musselburgh to play. The 'fans' actually were throwing his ball in bunkers and the like.

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lVCF8c5zk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lVCF8c5zk[/url] was against the spirit of the game.

[Frankensteins Monster]

[quote name='bunter101' timestamp='1360091413' post='6367957']
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lVCF8c5zk"]https://www.youtube....h?v=w4lVCF8c5zk[/url] was against the spirit of the game.
[/quote]

That was, and is, well within the rules.

[Willie Malay]

How in the world did this thread get to the discussion of discrimination? Yikes.

[scotee]

[size=4][color=#000000]The contrast with the Masters is often talked about in this discussion but even the Masters has evolved over time to include "new traditions". Take for example the par three tournament where all kinds of frivolity takes place with Arnold, Jack and Gary needling each other, kids dressed in oversized coveralls running around on the greens, and professional golfers having fun trying to skip shots from a pond to the green. The 16th at Phoenix has not been around as long but it is never the less becoming a tradition unique to that tournament. I like them both but don't want to see copies. Let each tournament have it's own distinct flavor. Pimento cheese sandwiches at Augusta, milkshakes at the Memorial and beer at Scottsdale. [/color][/size]

[bunter101]

[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1360091895' post='6367997']
[quote name='bunter101' timestamp='1360091413' post='6367957']
[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4lVCF8c5zk"]https://www.youtube....h?v=w4lVCF8c5zk[/url] was against the spirit of the game.
[/quote]

That was, and is, well within the rules.
[/quote]

Within the rules... yes. Within the [b]spirit[/b] of the game? Not so much!

[Soloman]

The 16th is the McDonald's, NASCAR and trailer park of golf. Yee haw.