I'm drinking scotch and I just don't care anymore. Want to mix it up....

[Obee]

<rant on>

 

How much better is a Champions Tour Pro like, say, Esteban Toledo, than a really solid club-level player? Say a guy who's a 0 to +1.

 

And I'm talking about in a tournament environment on a tough course. Say with a rating of 75ish and a slope of 145ish, where it really matters, in tournament conditions.

 

Let's have at it. I KNOW what the difference is. Most of you are just guessing. Yeah, I'm drunk. It's a Thursday night, and I don't give a crap!!! LOL!!!

 

Bring it, biznatches!!! Tell me what you THINK you know about golf, and I'll tell you the TRUTH about golf.

 

I know these threads have been done to death, but people are afraid to actually tell the truth in them, and I'm not. Not anymore! I'm 45 years old and I just don't care anymore!!!

 

<rant over>

 

:-)

[moonshine]

To me this thread really depends on what you call scotch?!

[H.A. Kerr]

There's a lot of lines in here that seem to me to be capable of long, long lives as recurring jokes/memes.

Love it.

[Obee]

I'm partial to Oban.

[quote name='moonshine' timestamp='1360299153' post='6386089']
To me this thread really depends on what you call scotch?!
[/quote]

[faberj12]

One of my buddies is a +3 and I'd bet he'd get smoked by any Champions Tour pro... that's why he's a +3 that works at a driving range instead of playing on any tour...

[Obee]

[quote name='faberj12' timestamp='1360300178' post='6386183']
One of my buddies is a +3 and I'd bet he'd get smoked by any Champions Tour pro... that's why he's a +3 that works at a driving range instead of playing on any tour...
[/quote]

Define "smoked." Say, over a 4-round tournament. On a course that is 7,100, 75.0/145. Greens running 12 - 12.5 fairly penal rough. Greens very firm. Just like Champions Tour Q-School or something like that. Just for arguments sake.....

BRINNNNNNGGGGG IT!!!!!!

You think you know, but you don't KNOW, know. Like really know. You know? ;-)

[bscinstnct]

If that's a scotch rant.

You're wife has been cutting your scotch bottle with water.

You'll really need to have more scotch and get back to us.

A real scotch rant would start more like>

"I f'n could krill fiddie coupl one on

Hic

I, he Lehman Brothers

You, try taping th putter to you are fore head Berna ha hard

Hey Faxon!

Shhhhhhhh get the internet "

[Obee]

Okay, that's damn funny right there. LOL!

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1360300528' post='6386217']
If that's a scotch rant.

You're wife has been cutting your scotch bottle with water.

You'll really need to have more scotch and get back to us.

A real scotch rant would start more like>

"I f'n could krill fiddie coupl one on

Hic

I, he Lehman Brothers

You, try taping th putter to you are fore head Berna ha hard

Hey Faxon!

Shhhhhhhh get the internet "
[/quote]

[Kadin 25]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1360300718' post='6386225']
Okay, that's damn funny right there. LOL!

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1360300528' post='6386217']
If that's a scotch rant.

You're wife has been cutting your scotch bottle with water.

You'll really need to have more scotch and get back to us.

A real scotch rant would start more like>

"I f'n could krill fiddie coupl one on

Hic

I, he Lehman Brothers

You, try taping th putter to you are fore head Berna ha hard

Hey Faxon!

Shhhhhhhh get the internet "
[/quote]
[/quote]+2 lol

[faberj12]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1360300337' post='6386199']
[quote name='faberj12' timestamp='1360300178' post='6386183']
One of my buddies is a +3 and I'd bet he'd get smoked by any Champions Tour pro... that's why he's a +3 that works at a driving range instead of playing on any tour...
[/quote]

Define "smoked." Say, over a 4-round tournament. On a course that is 7,100, 75.0/145. Greens running 12 - 12.5 fairly penal rough. Greens very firm. Just like Champions Tour Q-School or something like that. Just for arguments sake.....

BRINNNNNNGGGGG IT!!!!!!

You think you know, but you don't KNOW, know. Like really know. You know? ;-)
[/quote]
I know--and I'm sure more guys on here do than you think--that if my friend played his a** off for 4 days he'd probably shoot something like 74-75-72-72. The Champions Tour player would beat him by 4-6 shots a day--and if they play well maybe 8 or 10 off that 75... That'd be smoked...

[Obee]

This is amusing and everything, but let's stay on topic, gentlemen!!!

[Obee]

[quote name='faberj12' timestamp='1360301617' post='6386289']
[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1360300337' post='6386199']
[quote name='faberj12' timestamp='1360300178' post='6386183']
One of my buddies is a +3 and I'd bet he'd get smoked by any Champions Tour pro... that's why he's a +3 that works at a driving range instead of playing on any tour...
[/quote]

Define "smoked." Say, over a 4-round tournament. On a course that is 7,100, 75.0/145. Greens running 12 - 12.5 fairly penal rough. Greens very firm. Just like Champions Tour Q-School or something like that. Just for arguments sake.....

BRINNNNNNGGGGG IT!!!!!!

You think you know, but you don't KNOW, know. Like really know. You know? ;-)
[/quote]
I know--and I'm sure more guys on here do than you think--that if my friend played his a** off for 4 days he'd probably shoot something like 74-75-72-72. The Champions Tour player would beat him by 4-6 shots a day--and if they play well maybe 8 or 10 off that 75... That'd be smoked...
[/quote]

So my buddy, who is a consistent 0 to +1 (right now I think he's actually a 1-handicap), played in Senior Tour Q-School this year at Bear Creek Golf Club in Murrieta, CA. My buddy is NOT a top amateur. He's certainly a seasoned competitive amateur, but he's never won anything (other than a few club championships over the years at various clubs). He's also qualified three times for the U.S. Mid-Amateur, but never made it to match play. I believe the lowest his index has ever been is +1.5 or so, and at the time of Q-School last year, he was about a +1.0.

Here are the scores from Q-School:

1 JEFF BREHAUT 67 67 68 73 275 T2 DOUG GARWOOD 70 68 68 75 281 PETER FOWLER 72 70 70 69 281 T4 BOB black person 71 71 72 73 287 T. C. WANG 70 72 73 72 287 GREG BRUCKNER 72 72 75 68 287 7 JAMES BLAIR 76 70 74 71 291 8 ESTEBAN TOLEDO 74 71 75 74 294 T9 CHRIS STARKJOHANN 78 68 77 73 296 MARK JOHNSON 75 75 74 72 296 JACK FERENZ 69 75 80 72 296 PATRICK BURKE 70 74 78 74 296 ROBIN FREEMAN 75 74 72 75 296 14 CHIE HSIANG LIN 74 77 70 76 297 ALTERNATES ALT 1 SHAWN MCENTEE 73 76 74 75 298 ALT 2 DON LEVIN 76 79 73 70 298 ALT 3 KEVIN BURTON 74 77 76 71 298 DID NOT QUALIFY J. K. KIM 70 78 74 77 299 MATT GANGH 70 78 78 74 300 BARRY CONSER 77 75 71 78 301 NOBU YUHARA 82 74 71 75 302 KRIS BAXTER 74 76 77 75 302 BRAD BELL 74 75 72 81 302 T. C. CHEN 80 73 73 77 303 TOM NORYS 74 74 83 73 304 MARK RYPIEN 81 77 75 71 304 PERRY BILLAUD 73 80 76 78 307 GREG CASAGRANDA 76 85 72 74 307 GREG KOPF 80 83 76 70 309 STACEY HART 79 73 79 80 311 JIM RAZETTO 77 77 81 77 312 DAVID KATZ 79 79 80 75 313 BILL BREEN 73 78 82 81 314 TERRY MYERS 82 74 79 79 314 DAVID O'FLYNN 76 78 82 78 314 FRED GARCIA 79 82 78 75 314 CHARLES KAVANAUGH 81 75 81 79 316 DAVID NARVESON 80 77 81 79 317 ROBERT KAINDL 83 84 77 80 324 BRIAN BRANSON 85 79 76 90 330 CHARLES MANHARD 83 85 88 78 334

So, as you can see, the difference betwen a solid pro having a decent Q-school (Eduardo Romero, web.com winner, 34th in the '99 US Open, 43rd in the 2002 British Open; Mark Johnson, Champions Tour winner, ) and my buddy, is about 2 shots a round.

And my buddy played HORRIBLY his third round. He knew he was in the hunt, and he was so nervous that he could barely make contact. I caddied for him that day and he left everything short and right with his irons all day because he just couldn't release the club through the ball because he was so nervous. Also, take a look at the name right above my buddy. Yes, that's TC Chen. The TC Chen who almost won the U.S. Open and who won the 87 Los Angeles Open and six Japanese Tour events.

Others that played: Robin Freeman, a 2-time Nike Tour winner and 2-time PGA Tour Q-School Medalist for low score of the tournament; Brad Bell, Nationwide Tour winner; Greg Bruckner, longtime Nationwide Tour standout, and others.

Now the gap between the Q-School medalist, Jeff Brehaut and my buddy was a full 29 shots, but that is irrelevant to the discussion. Brehaut played GREAT, and crushed almost everyone on a very, very tough course. My buddy played a pretty average tournament for him with one horrible round. Romero and Mark Johnson played decent golf. Well enough to move onto final stage, but they were close to not making the cut and moving on. They were grinding their booties off out there to make it to final stage, and my buddy was right there with them for three of the four rounds.

So, there you have it. Make of that info what you will, but I hope some of you guys who think that the difference between the pros and solid ams is ridiculously large take something from this: It's really not that big -- except for the guys who are really playing well. Every tournament there are pros who shoot around par. They're trying as hard as they can, and the courses are tough, and the putts aren't falling. They shoot around par. My buddy was doing the same, trying as hard as he could, and he ended up 2-shots a round behind guys who have WON on the Champions Tour and Nationwide Tour and one stroke [b]ahead[/b] of a guy who [b]won[/b] on the PGA Tour and finished 2nd in the U.S. Open.

Are any of these guys that I'm comparing my buddy to the best seniors in the world right now? No, but that wasn't my original question. I didn't ask: "What's the difference between a 0 to +1 index amateur and Fred Funk or Freddie Couples." That was, specifically, not my question.

So why do you think I'm posting this? I'll bet you have no idea why I'm so adamant about this subject. Like I said, I [b]know[/b] the gap isn't that big. Why do so many of you insist on thinking it's so big? What do you gain out of it? how does it serve you? So what's my point? Can anyone guess?

Finally, My buddy isn't even a top amateur. He's not nationaly ranked. Heck, he's not even ranked in California. He's just a very good amteur who's played a lot of competitive golf over the years. He hits the ball very long and straight (he outdrove Romero by 20 - 30 yards every hold), is a very good 4 - 12 foot putter, and he's a serious, serious competitor with heart and guts. He also happens to struggle with the chipping yips, or he'd be playing for a (modest) living on a mini-tour somewhere.

So there you have it. I play with amateurs every year in big time amateur tournaments who are considerably better than my buddy. If any of you play golf in major metropolitan areas you've probably heard of a few of them. They can flat out play -- almost as well as many tour pros. For proof of that, look no further than they guy who finished T-4 above, Bob black person. He was a lifelong amateur, turned pro a few years ago, and here he is, finishing T-4 at First Stage Champions Tour Q-School....

So there you have it.... :-)

Moderators, I'd appreciate it if you'd move this thread off the "Heated topics" section. This is a legitmate topic for which I have provided actual evidence, and I'd like everyone to be able to access it in the "General Golf" forum. There's a specific reason I'm posting this stuff, and I hope to continue this thread and make that point as the thread continues....

[MtlJeff]

A regular Joe Schmo 0 index against an average champions tour player, with tournament conditions and fans and pressure? I'd say 35-45 shots over 4 days.

These threads are so tough because people respond to pressure differently. Someone's mental make-up is just as important as their talent in these situations. I've seen guys who are 0-1 handicaps beat +3 and +4's in tournaments because they shoot their handicaps and the other guys don't when it counts.

If it's tournament conditions, then whether someone is a tournament player is huge. You just throw a regular scratch guy with little tournament experience by comparison out there (like, umm, myself?). I'd get crushed by a senior player with gallaries and fans and rules officials following the group. Guarantee i wouldn't break 80 in two of the rounds

[PhilTickelson]

Yeah this one time I was playing wiffle ball with albert pujols and I struck him out and I hit a home run so the gap between professional first basemen and a lazy dude who sits on his couch is not that big. One tournament doesn't prove anything really.

I think the difference is any one of those pros could throw out a 275 on any given tournament while your buddy could throw out a 300, and maybe hang with the ones that didn't play to their ability that tournament. 25 strokes over the course of 4 days is a lot of strokes...

[Kuz013]

I'm impressed a 45 yr old uses the term "biznatches"

[ajschn06]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1360300528' post='6386217']
If that's a scotch rant.

You're wife has been cutting your scotch bottle with water.

You'll really need to have more scotch and get back to us.

A real scotch rant would start more like>

"I f'n could krill fiddie coupl one on

Hic

I, he Lehman Brothers

You, try taping th putter to you are fore head Berna ha hard

Hey Faxon!

Shhhhhhhh get the internet "
[/quote]

I found this to be one of the funnier things I've encountered so far in 2013...

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1360300528' post='6386217']


You're wife has been cutting your scotch bottle with water.

[/quote]

I'm guessing it was the Milk Man.

[moonshine]

Oban is good....sooooo many to skim through at that price level!

[Sean25rp]

Come along now scotch man. What is your point?

[Parker0065]

You said your "Buddy" has the "Chipping Yips" of all things! He would get smoked and routed by most club pro's which isn't saying much!

Go to a pro tournament and you will see that all of them can get up and down from just about anywhere.

Game Over!!

[prsgtrman]

my head hurts

[Chief Illiniwek]

Champions tour has "penal rough"?

/troll

[Rockminer]

Let me guess, you caddied for your buddy, now you're on a 5 year plan to try and make the senior tour?

[Obee]

[quote name='Chief Illiniwek' timestamp='1360586275' post='6405135']
Champions tour has "penal rough"?

/troll
[/quote]

No, but Bear Creek did the week of Q-School.

[Obee]

[quote name='Sean25rp' timestamp='1360455087' post='6396627']
Come along now scotch man. What is your point?
[/quote]

So here's my point. My buddy did not get "smoked" by Eduardo Romero, a guy who not only made the cut at first stage (and who now has full status on the Champions Tour) he got beat by an average of two strokes a round. He played shot for shot with him for three rounds on a 7,000+ yard golf course and then blew up with an 81.

Read that again: he finished TWO STROKES A ROUND behind a guy who is going to play the Champions Tour full time this year.

So, I have two points, actually:

1) Those of you who think the difference between a really good am and a guy playing The Champions Tour full time is 6 or 8 or 10 shots a round are just plain wrong.

And remember, Tom isn't even a nationally ranked amateur. A nationally ranked guy like Brady Exber, a 50+ amateur out of Nevada, is easily 2-4 shots per round better than Tom.

I just showed you proof that a Champions Tour player with full status beat a 0 to +1 index amateur by just two strokes a round in a tournament where he was grinding every shot of the way.

Let's discuss this before I move on to my second, and main, point.

[Obee]

[quote name='Rockminer' timestamp='1360586478' post='6405149']
Let me guess, you caddied for your buddy, now you're on a 5 year plan to try and make the senior tour?
[/quote]

No.

[lumberman2462]

There are a lot of amateurs that can flat out play. I'm not disputing that. Some top amateurs can hang within a few shots of a Champions Tour Player over a few rounds or even a full four-day tournament. But the amateurs that can do that are few and far between. We've got a guy at my club that is early 50s and he's played ever big time amateur event you can imagine over the past 25 years. He's qualified for the Senior British Open & Senior U.S. Open - never won any big time events but has played them all for years. He never shoots worse than 68-69 at our club and when he gets hot.....he goes low. As good as he is - he's told all of us that he doesn't have what it takes. I guess I'll take his word for it.

On a related note: If you buy Johnny Walker Green Label by the case.....you get a nice discount and it's pretty good stuff. I realize it's not the boutique single malt deals - but it really does accomplish the same thing.

[Obee]

[quote name='PhilTickelson' timestamp='1360437718' post='6395279']
I think the difference is any one of those pros could throw out a 275 on any given tournament while your buddy could throw out a 300, and maybe hang with the ones that didn't play to their ability that tournament. 25 strokes over the course of 4 days is a lot of strokes...
[/quote]

You're right about that.

The difference for my buddy Tom and the best senior players in the world is 2 - 7 shots a round. I'm comfortable with stating that as a fact from which we can continue this discussion. If you disagree, please tell me why....

[Obee]

What's the guy's name?

[quote name='lumberman2462' timestamp='1360595783' post='6405969']
There are a lot of amateurs that can flat out play. I'm not disputing that. Some top amateurs can hang within a few shots of a Champions Tour Player over a few rounds or even a full four-day tournament. But the amateurs that can do that are few and far between. We've got a guy at my club that is early 50s and he's played ever big time amateur event you can imagine over the past 25 years. He's qualified for the Senior British Open &amp; Senior U.S. Open - never won any big time events but has played them all for years. He never shoots worse than 68-69 at our club and when he gets hot.....he goes low. As good as he is - he's told all of us that he doesn't have what it takes. I guess I'll take his word for it.

On a related note: If you buy Johnny Walker Green Label by the case.....you get a nice discount and it's pretty good stuff. I realize it's not the boutique single malt deals - but it really does accomplish the same thing.
[/quote]

[Langlands]

[quote name='Obee' timestamp='1360594850' post='6405855']
He played shot for shot with him for three rounds on a 7,000+ yard golf course and then blew up with an 81.
[/quote]

There's the difference - your friend held his own but then fell to pieces in the fourth round. A successful tour pro will grind out a score when it matters, even when not on his game.

I watched Romero warm up at the Scottish Open some 20 years ago, hits the ball beautifully. Effortless power.