My Journey - From Top Posers, to Slicefixer, to iteach Dan

[Sabre3]

[quote name='tsdean1980' timestamp='1365508511' post='6791439']
Hopefully back on topic here,

So Dan say why he thinks the longer clubs are easier than the shorter clubs? Is it to do with rate of closer and over-taking rate?
[/quote]I'm curious as to how this is so as well. If I could figure out how to be more confident with a driver my entire game would improve.

[iteachgolf]

For a player who tends to be under plane and hits hooks the driver, being the shallowest, has the path moving closer to neutral at impact. Also because of the length of swing there is more time to get shoulders open and arms more in front of you. With a half wedge you have zero time for correction/compensation because impact and top if the swing are much closer together. Depends on persons issues but for many driver will be easiest not hardest.

[Hstead]

Wow, I never imagined Geoff would post. I really didn't mean for this to get into a contest, although I feared it might. Again, I just wanted to post my experience and results as I wished someone had similarly. In reality, I did "find" something similar as I have had multiple people share the same experience, just no one would post it.

My mail box is now cleared, as I have had many PMs and thanks from those with the kind words.

Goeff is exactly correct, he does get many guys to top levels, and as I mentioned in the beginning, I take the blame for not being able to "get it". But, I will say it doesn't take hours and years. Dan explained the Biomechanics behind what he taught me. There is no other way the body can move when you do certain things certain ways, that is why it doesn't take hours and years. I would have had it by now if that was the case because I have worked harder in my 20 years at my golf swing on the range and in the living room than 99.9% of all golfers already. This is why it only takes three swings. Three is being conservative too, I am not kidding. I am sure Dan could post my third swing if he wanted and it will look mostly like day three did.

As I mentioned, Dan films nearly every swing. If it was so hard, some of those swings would not be correct etc and you would go backwards to the old flaws. With the biomechanics, once I made the change with my body, the club never returned inside, under, and across ONCE. Not a single time and it is unbelievably easy. It was not hard. It is impossible for the body to work in a manner to return to that move once Dan fixed it biomechanically.

Now, this does not mean I have mastered the golf swing as there is more to hitting the ball than taking the club back on plane and in front, but it sure gets a hell of a lot easier. Dan completely cleared my mind of all of the clutter and reduced the golf swing down to it's simpleist form FOR ME. I do not have to think about hardly anything at all. Just a couple of simple thoughts about my right arm.

To address a couple of earlier questions, no the take away doesn't feel weird to me, it actually feels outstanding. It is a simple feel, much easier than anything I have ever tried in the past. That is what is so mind blowing. When your arm works in a certain way, the other arm has to do a certain thing, and your chest has to move a certain way. There is no other way the other parts can move differently, it is impossible.

And to the poster regarding Dan being a disciple, I believe you are thinking of a different Dan. Dan Carraher is teaching something that I think only he teaches. I actually asked him a lot about where he learned what he is teaching and if anyone else is teaching similar things. He is a trained mechanical engineer, and he approaches the golf swing like a catalogue of parts. Some parts work together and have to be present and some do not work together. It is different for each person. He does not teach a method. He understand biomechanics. He is incredibly smart. That is pretty much it.

[Eag1e]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1365512052' post='6791737']
For a player who tends to be under plane and hits hooks the driver, being the shallowest, has the path moving closer to neutral at impact. Also because of the length of swing there is more time to get shoulders open and arms more in front of you. With a half wedge you have zero time for correction/compensation because impact and top if the swing are much closer together. Depends on persons issues but for many driver will be easiest not hardest.
[/quote]

I can attest to this as well, even though my tendencies are steep/club moving left rather than shallow/club moving right. Though it probably makes sense for my case as well since driver is the shallowest club and therefore doesn't really get as susceptible to my steep tendencies as something like a 3 iron/3 wood off the deck (which will both give me fits on bad days). I've had rounds when I get entirely lost that I hit 11 fairways and 5 greens. If I hit 13+ greens I'm missing no more than one fairway, but I've had a lot of 100% fairway rounds.

[Sabre3]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1365512052' post='6791737']
For a player who tends to be under plane and hits hooks the driver, being the shallowest, has the path moving closer to neutral at impact. Also because of the length of swing there is more time to get shoulders open and arms more in front of you. With a half wedge you have zero time for correction/compensation because impact and top if the swing are much closer together. Depends on persons issues but for many driver will be easiest not hardest.
[/quote]Makes sense but for me I tend to feel a longer swing (longer club) means more time to get OUT of sync or less connected. I come over the top more with a driver and have my hands behind me a bit more.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Sabre3' timestamp='1365512675' post='6791799']
[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1365512052' post='6791737']
For a player who tends to be under plane and hits hooks the driver, being the shallowest, has the path moving closer to neutral at impact. Also because of the length of swing there is more time to get shoulders open and arms more in front of you. With a half wedge you have zero time for correction/compensation because impact and top if the swing are much closer together. Depends on persons issues but for many driver will be easiest not hardest.
[/quote]Makes sense but for me I tend to feel a longer swing (longer club) means more time to get OUT of sync or less connected. I come over the top more with a driver and have my hands behind me a bit more.
[/quote]
Like I said for a player who is under plane driver is often the easiest. You're on the other end of the spectrum.

[HappyGolf]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1365512408' post='6791769']
Dan explained the Biomechanics behind what he taught me. There is no other way the body can move when you do certain things certain ways, that is why it doesn't take hours and years. I would have had it by now if that was the case because I have worked harder in my 20 years at my golf swing on the range and in the living room than 99.9% of all golfers already. This is why it only takes three swings. Three is being conservative too, I am not kidding. I am sure Dan could post my third swing if he wanted and it will look mostly like day three did.
[/quote]

If the biomechanics are so simple and in 3 swings you can nail it surely it wouldn't take more than a couple of paragraphs for Dan to clear up everyone's swings?

....... or is it a SECRET?

[Hstead]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1365515100' post='6792031']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1365512408' post='6791769']
Dan explained the Biomechanics behind what he taught me. There is no other way the body can move when you do certain things certain ways, that is why it doesn't take hours and years. I would have had it by now if that was the case because I have worked harder in my 20 years at my golf swing on the range and in the living room than 99.9% of all golfers already. This is why it only takes three swings. Three is being conservative too, I am not kidding. I am sure Dan could post my third swing if he wanted and it will look mostly like day three did.
[/quote]

If the biomechanics are so simple and in 3 swings you can nail it surely it wouldn't take more than a couple of paragraphs for Dan to clear up everyone's swings?

....... or is it a SECRET?
[/quote]

Well, I do not want to give away the entire kitchen sink out of respect for Dan. Also, Dan tried to explain it to me via email before I even made it to Jacksonville. I sent Dan some video, to which he responds within minutes by the way, and he tried to explain then what I needed to do. I thought I was doing what he explained, sent him more video, and I had to laugh at the video myself as it was not doing what he told me to do even though I thought I was.

So long story short, even though he tried to explain it via email, I didn't get it until he actually put his hands on my club and put me where I should be, and showed me. He had me do some different "tests" to demonstrate to me why your body moves in certain ways so that I immediately saw it because he showed me correctly if that makes sense? Just like with Geoff's stuff. You can try to explain all you want about how he teaches the grip, but if you don't go down there and have him draw on your glove, you are not going to grip it how he wants you to. If you can, then you are lucky.

[QMany]

Does Dan focus on the biomechanics necessary in the swing, each individuals biomechanical tendencies, or both?

[jblacoustics]

Lol...darn it, my sincerest apologies...that's what happens when you drive and post at the same time!..rofl...seriously, sorry for that.

[jblacoustics]

So if its Dan C/iteachgolf, well then I'm not surprised the OP found it with Dan C. Dan C/iteachgolf is one of the best in the business of analyzing and teaching the golf swing. Too bad he's too busy or has some other reasons not to spend time with this hack (i.e., yours truly)...hey Dan C, why don't you have your own school for teachers! This way you can spread your knowledge...

[jblacoustics]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1365510545' post='6791599']
Sorry but you're obviously confused. I've never met Geoff, though I respect him greatly, and am not a disciple of anyone. I've earned everything I have in golf, and haven't rode the coat tails of anyone.

If you don't know what you're talking about its best not to speak so matter of factly about things.
[/quote]

I am sincerely sorry for my post. I truly thought it was Dan Whitaker. I was on iPhone/IP.Board Mobile and I truly didn't notice the captions in the main Title/Topic.

Again, my apologies. I have read almost all your posts and I KNOW you are a great teacher as I've said already in my previous post.

I guess I was taken aback by the OP's post and responded haphazardly. Darn, why post something like that??

I will delete my first post here. Hope posts quoting my first would be deleted as well...darn...

[mukster]

Thanks Hstead for a fascinating read and a great ensuing thread. I have been following the instruction threads here like a lot of people, and for me, I always am hoping that something I read or something one of the instructors says will create that magic chain of events that will finally solidify my swing into something much better and repeatable. I for one have given thought on a few occasions of perhaps dropping some coin and making a pilgrimage of sorts to go and seek out a golf swing guru. I also like the candid information you offer, showing that no one coach or teaching method works for everybody. I can 100% identify with that.

I took lessons from a guy several years ago and after some previous unsatisfying endeavors, this guy changed it all for me. I went from a total hack to having a nice, somewhat repeatable draw and was happier than could be. At some point he stopped giving lessons due to a full time coaching commitment. He had a partner that taught EXACTLY the same swing, same style, my goodness they even sounded the same on the phone. They had been teaching together for years. I opted to switch to his partner and despite several lessons, I could not jive with what he was telling me. Really strange, something was missing. I finally gave it up and moved on. My point being, I believe there is something intangible that makes something as personal as a swing coach work for us. The idea that one cure will fix all that ails everyone is somewhat quixotic.

[HitEmTrue]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1365512408' post='6791769']
But, I will say it doesn't take hours and years. Dan explained the Biomechanics behind what he taught me. There is no other way the body can move when you do certain things certain ways, that is why it doesn't take hours and years. I would have had it by now if that was the case because I have worked harder in my 20 years at my golf swing on the range and in the living room than 99.9% of all golfers already. This is why it only takes three swings.
[/quote]

You had already put in a lot of time learning and practicing...this had to help make the changes possible when you went to see Dan. The more you swing and work on fundamentals, the more you become in tune with the feelings and details in the swing. "Light bulb" moments happen to those who put in the time.

That's just my unprofessional opinion.

[Evil Ecstasy]

In my honest opinion, as constructive criticism to Geoff, the best thing he can do is just limit the number of students he has and devote more time to each student. I'd say that one of his biggest problems is he took on more than he could chew basically. I know at one point Geoff told me he was planning to double students up on the 3-day visits in the following year, and I guess im just saying I think that would be going in the wrong direction.

[Lefthook]

Gentlemen,

I believe we are comparing apples and oranges here. Nothing wrong with that as long as you know what you want. And in case you didn't get the analogy: Apples equals big, fundamental swing changes and oranges equals small changes, fine tuning and adjustment to the existing machinery to make it as useful as possible.

In this case we could also say that apples equals a leveraged release, while oranges equals a rapid club head closure through impact. It would involve a very big change for Hstead to achieve the impact that Geoff teaches.

I had a similar "orange" experience as Hstead had with Dan. But it was with Geoff in Texarcana. I was really struggling with my ball striking when I arrived, had been for quite some time. Impact felt terrible and the ball went all over the place. Geoff watched me for a few minutes, filmed a handful of swings and fixed me up almost instantly. All it took was an adjustment to how I moved the hips in the takeaway. And while I am still capable of doing a lot of errors when I play golf, the one he fixed is no longer a frequent visitor. That must have been very similar to what Dan did with Hstead.

Like most long distance slicefixer students I didn't go to Texarcana to tune my old swing. I wanted to hit the ball the way he described in his Encyclopedia, or as close as I could get. I didn't mind a bite of the orange but I was really there for the apple.

[size=4]I had the time and opportunity. I wanted to find out if I could develop a substantially better swing. The change took time and hard work, but I enjoyed the process a great deal. The key enabler for me was the consistency and the quality in Geoffs swing theories and guide lines. I did not hit thousands of 9-3s when I was in Texarcana. I had plenty of opportunity to do that before and after. I was there to get a proper diagnosis and to collect knowledge that I could later use for my own benefit. I was there to get some homework. And it worked out pretty well. [/size]

[size=4]I played right through the changes and the scoring was very inconsistent compared to what it used to be. But between rounds with too many terrible misses I posted the occasional decent score to prevent my handicap from going sky high. And there were flashes of something new every now and then. Eventually my swing became substantially better. I added more than 10 mph of swing speed with my driver, I started to make a lot more birdies than ever before, I touched base with my all time low HCP index. [/size][size=4]I haven't cruised down towards scratch like some of the others,[/size][size=4] but I think I have something in my toolbox now that will enable me to take my game to a higher level than ever before - if I get enough time to harvest. I have been playing golf for more than 20 years, and coming out with a new swing that holds a lot of promise has in any case been very refreshing to say the least.[/size]

[size=4]I genuinely believe that a much improved[/size][size=4] good golf swing will never come easy to someone who has been playing for 10-20 year. A big change will require hard work and there will be setbacks. And there is also a certain risk that the efforts never pays off.[/size]

[size=4]A[/size][size=4] change that comes easy is on the other hand a very small change, and it is very unlikely to transform the game substantially. It comes easy because it blends in with the old motion patterns. But it may be enough to get a great season started. And there's no reason to doubt that several increments can lead to great progress long term - if the motor pattern isn't too troubled. [/size][size=4]But to believe that fundamental changes can click instantly is IMO an illusion. [/size]

I would never recommend a first class player to go through fundamental swing changes. High risk and very limited upside. Not unless he was 15 years or younger anyway. I have my own version of the 10.000 rule: It is 10.000 times easier to learn motoric skills between age 10 and 20 than later.

As for the rest of us scratch2hackers - it's just a hobby, right? The upside of a big change is certainly larger than among the elite, but there are many ways to improve in golf. Do what sounds like the most fun to you and enjoy the game. [size=4]Just don't ask for an apple if you really want an orange. [/size]

[CSagan]

[quote name='Evil Ecstasy' timestamp='1365524495' post='6793321']
In my honest opinion, as constructive criticism to Geoff, the best thing he can do is just limit the number of students he has and devote more time to each student. I'd say that one of his biggest problems is he took on more than he could chew basically. I know at one point Geoff told me he was planning to double students up on the 3-day visits in the following year, and I guess im just saying I think that would be going in the wrong direction.
[/quote]

2 students for 3 days is fine. It will be a little more work for him but certainly not too much to handle.

[QMany]

[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1365528543' post='6793863']
[quote name='Evil Ecstasy' timestamp='1365524495' post='6793321']
In my honest opinion, as constructive criticism to Geoff, the best thing he can do is just limit the number of students he has and devote more time to each student. I'd say that one of his biggest problems is he took on more than he could chew basically. I know at one point Geoff told me he was planning to double students up on the 3-day visits in the following year, and I guess im just saying I think that would be going in the wrong direction.
[/quote]
2 students for 3 days is fine. It will be a little more work for him but certainly not too much to handle.
[/quote]
My trip to see Geoff was with 2 of my buddies. Geoff handled three just fine.

[sethdavidsdad]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1365512052' post='6791737']
For a player who tends to be under plane and hits hooks the driver, being the shallowest, has the path moving closer to neutral at impact. Also because of the length of swing there is more time to get shoulders open and arms more in front of you. With a half wedge you have zero time for correction/compensation because impact and top if the swing are much closer together. Depends on persons issues but for many driver will be easiest not hardest.
[/quote]

This has been my issue since October.

Can't believe this got Geoff to post again. Haven't seen a new post from slice in years.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='QMany' timestamp='1365528818' post='6793899']
[quote name='CSagan' timestamp='1365528543' post='6793863']
[quote name='Evil Ecstasy' timestamp='1365524495' post='6793321']
In my honest opinion, as constructive criticism to Geoff, the best thing he can do is just limit the number of students he has and devote more time to each student. I'd say that one of his biggest problems is he took on more than he could chew basically. I know at one point Geoff told me he was planning to double students up on the 3-day visits in the following year, and I guess im just saying I think that would be going in the wrong direction.
[/quote]
2 students for 3 days is fine. It will be a little more work for him but certainly not too much to handle.
[/quote]
My trip to see Geoff was with 2 of my buddies. Geoff handled three just fine.
[/quote]
I guess it depends upon expectations and what you're looking for. My experiences with Geoff have all been great, but then again I don't need (or expect) him to watch every swing. Perhaps it's just the way I'm wired. I also have learned a ton by observing him teaching others, which is not something most instructors would afford you the opportunity to do. If I feel like I need him to take a look, or explain something better, I just ask and he's on top of it. I have also referred a bunch of my buddies to him since he's been coming to the east coast to teach. Overwhelmingly, the feedback from them has been extremely positive, though some have expressed that they would have liked a little more individualized attention after they got their initial video session and set out to work on the changes. Everyone is different, and I'm sure Geoff would have provided it had they asked directly. It seems like Dan C. is a very talented instructor also, and with a slightly different style and teaching technique. I enjoy his contributions here immensely and he has clearly been of great assistance to some fellow GolfWRXers, even some who have needed a nudge over the finish line with their Slicefixer swings. It's all good...

[parmark]

Lefthook - one of the top 3 posts I've ever read on this site. Well played!

[Wordmixer]

[background=transparent]I too have enjoyed iteach's posts, and I believe the "3 swings and fixed" statement from the OP because the same thing happened to me, although I was swinging in front of "de fixer of slices."[/background]

[background=transparent]Five days ago in a top secret location in Georgia, in a two-day meeting with Geoff about edits to his forthcoming book, I managed to squeeze in a three-minute mini-lesson from him on a practice tee. In the first two minutes he filmed three swings -- face-on / DTL / and rear view -- and in the third minute told me what I needed to do. [/background]

[background=transparent]So I did it (More straight back with left forearm rotation in the backswing.) My formerly hook-biased shots immediately ceased, and the desired knuckle-fade returned. [/background]
[background=transparent].[/background]
[background=transparent]Three swings, three minutes. The[/background][background=transparent]n it was back to the nouns and verbs.[/background]

[background=transparent]Understand that I'm a 2 handicap, and pretty much know how to make my club/arms/torso do what he advises (well, most of the time.) In my opinion, much of the "time compression" in a student's learning process can be attributed to what the student brings into the garage before the mechanic jacks up the car and peers under the hood. [/background]

If Jason Dufner strolls into your garage, the mechanic -- whether it's Geoff, iTeach, or whomever -- is likely dealing with a spark plug change on a Ferrari.

If a 28 handicap strolls into your garage, the mechanic is often dealing with a modern day Edsel in need of a new transmission.

But whether we are a sleek Euro car or a rusty El Camino, we're all fortunate and blessed to have here some extremely knowledgeable instructors like Slice, iteach, Monte, et al. I've just begun coaching a charter high school's golf team, and those youngsters are eating up the content on this site. Thanks, all.

[Etzwane]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1365510545' post='6791599']
[quote name='jblacoustics' timestamp='1365479665' post='6790631']
Don't understand how Dan can be of more benefit to you when Dan is just a student/disciple of Geoff/Slicefixer the master...

I don't think Dan gave you Geoff's principles. He tweaked it to suit your current moves. Just IMO of course. Like the more away or less inside takeaway...it's what suits your current grip and hands position at setup.
[/quote]
Sorry but you're obviously confused. I've never met Geoff, though I respect him greatly, and am not a disciple of anyone. I've earned everything I have in golf, and haven't rode the coat tails of anyone.

If you don't know what you're talking about its best not to speak so matter of factly about things.
[/quote]

I think jblacoustics mistook you for Dan W. (dfw1500).

[Hstead]

[quote name='parmark' timestamp='1365533113' post='6794427']
Lefthook - one of the top 3 posts I've ever read on this site. Well played!
[/quote]

I am sorry but I have to disagree with Lefthook. My swing is not a band aid, and it was indeed more of an overhaul. I have a pivot release and the club is going around the corner so to speak as seen in the videos.

This is not apples to oranges. It was apples to apples. I went to Geoff in Feb of this year. I saw Dan exactly 7 weeks later. They both had the same guy to work with. One was able to overhaul my swing and one was not. That does not mean Geoff is not good. That means Geoff is not good for me.

I have always bought into the "long term", "tons of reps" blah blah blah. If I had not experienced it myself, I too would be doubtful. The video speaks for itself. The fact is, I am by no means the only one with this experience. Before I went to see Dan, I communicated with 8 guys on this site that had gone to both guys. I will not name all 8 out of respect for them as they may or may not want to be known, but I will name two because they have already spoken on this forum and it is not new, tembolo and Eagl1e. Both of those guys had the exact same experience, just go look at their before and afters, they are exactly like mine. All 8 guys told me the same thing, Dan helped them more and faster. After starting this thread, there have been six more guys communicate with me that they have had similar results. I am by no means an anomaly, there are at least a dozen of us. There just only seem to be three so far that feel like taking the heat from some of the Geoff fans on this site. It is very unfortunate really. Why can a guy not give his honest appraisal on here? Why does a guy like me have to worry about being attacked if I simply state facts and show videos? Why did I have to think about whether or not I was even going to go through the headache of doing this? The answer for me became clear. Because I want to help some other folks that are like me.

For some guys Geoff can do wonders, for others of us he cannot. That is all. Dan has been able to help a bunch of us and so far I haven't heard anyone state he couldn't help them. They may be out there, I just haven't heard them. I have heard from dozens that haven't been helped by Geoff, but lord have mercy if you say so, so much that they remain silent.

It is really pretty simple, Geoff has his accomplished students, his resume as a coach and a player, and his method. For some it works wonderfully, and for those great. Everyone has read about his method and teaching style. Some love it, some not so much. Geoff will tell you himself how he operates. Dan has his style and his accomplished students, and for those of us that he has helped, great.

There is no right or wrong here. There are two different styles and methods. I just wanted to compare and contrast so others can have a more information when they are trying to decide for themselves, like I wished I had a few months ago. That is not saying I wasted time in TXAR, I did learn some things. It is just saying that Dan fits ME better. Geoff may fit YOU better.

[bph7]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1365542923' post='6795609']
[quote name='parmark' timestamp='1365533113' post='6794427']
Lefthook - one of the top 3 posts I've ever read on this site. Well played!
[/quote]

I am sorry but I have to disagree with Lefthook. My swing is not a band aid, and it was indeed more of an overhaul. I have a pivot release and the club is going around the corner so to speak as seen in the videos.

This is not apples to oranges. It was apples to apples. I went to Geoff in Feb of this year. I saw Dan exactly 7 weeks later. They both had the same guy to work with. One was able to overhaul my swing and one was not. That does not mean Geoff is not good. That means Geoff is not good for me.

I have always bought into the "long term", "tons of reps" blah blah blah. If I had not experienced it myself, I too would be doubtful. The video speaks for itself. The fact is, I am by no means the only one with this experience. Before I went to see Dan, I communicated with 8 guys on this site that had gone to both guys. I will not name all 8 out of respect for them as they may or may not want to be known, but I will name two because they have already spoken on this forum and it is not new, tembolo and Eagl1e. Both of those guys had the exact same experience, just go look at their before and afters, they are exactly like mine. All 8 guys told me the same thing, Dan helped them more and faster. After starting this thread, there have been six more guys communicate with me that they have had similar results. I am by no means an anomaly, there are at least a dozen of us. [b]There just only seem to be three so far that feel like taking the heat from some of the Geoff fans on this site. It is very unfortunate really. Why can a guy not give his honest appraisal on here? Why does a guy like me have to worry about being attacked if I simply state facts and show videos? Why did I have to think about whether or not I was even going to go through the headache of doing this? The answer for me became clear. Because I want to help some other folks that are like me.[/b]

For some guys Geoff can do wonders, for others of us he cannot. That is all. Dan has been able to help a bunch of us and so far I haven't heard anyone state he couldn't help them. They may be out there, I just haven't heard them. I have heard from dozens that haven't been helped by Geoff, but lord have mercy if you say so, so much that they remain silent.

It is really pretty simple, Geoff has his accomplished students, his resume as a coach and a player, and his method. For some it works wonderfully, and for those great. Everyone has read about his method and teaching style. Some love it, some not so much. Geoff will tell you himself how he operates. Dan has his style and his accomplished students, and for those of us that he has helped, great.

There is no right or wrong here. There are two different styles and methods. I just wanted to compare and contrast so others can have a more information when they are trying to decide for themselves, like I wished I had a few months ago. That is not saying I wasted time in TXAR, I did learn some things. It is just saying that Dan fits ME better. Geoff may fit YOU better.

For Lefthook though, did you even watch the video? If you do not think that is a leveraged pivot release then there may be a reason you are still a 6 HC.
[/quote]

I really don't feel like any SF fans are giving you grief or making you "take the heat". I appreciate everything you have posted, and believe that most in this thread have indicated as much as well. I don't think lefthook was saying anything more than "slice worked for me like danc did for you". I understand he said something about how you couldn't achieve "the impact that Geoff teaches", but why would you want that anyway? You found someone better for you. I think he was just emphasizing that he thinks the "methods" or whatever you want to call them of the respective instructors are different. Maybe I am totally missing something here, but I just really don't think anyone is giving you a hard time and think, in general, people keep looking for reasons to think this thread is going to turn out badly when the truth is that it really hasn't and has actually been a good discussion.

[iteachgolf]

[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1365528413' post='6793851']

[size=4]I genuinely believe that a much improved[/size][size=4] good golf swing will never come easy to someone who has been playing for 10-20 year. A big change will require hard work and there will be setbacks. And there is also a certain risk that the efforts never pays off.[/size]

[size=4]A[/size][size=4] change that comes easy is on the other hand a very small change, and it is very unlikely to transform the game substantially. It comes easy because it blends in with the old motion patterns. But it may be enough to get a great season started. And there's no reason to doubt that several increments can lead to great progress long term - if the motor pattern isn't too troubled. [/size][size=4]But to believe that fundamental changes can click instantly is IMO an illusion. [/size]

[/quote]

You act like I just bandaid swings and the changes aren't long term and don't create long term improvement.

I make changes that are for the long term. But rather than change everything all at once, I change one or two pieces at a time. Over time their golfswing looks drastically different and has been "overhauled". The difference is the player never feels like they've been overhauled. I have many golfers go from the 85-95 range to sub 5 handicaps and stay there.

In car terms, some teachers strip a car to its chassis and rebuild from scratch, only issue here is the car isnt very usable for an extendable period of time this way. Others go about it by replacing one panel/part at a time beginning with the most important parts first, the difference is the car is perfectly usable during the process of the "build". The two cars may even end up looking very similar or the same to many. the difference will be how functional the car was in the middle of the process. Funny thing is i build and restore cars and also prefer the later when doing that as well. in the end looks better than new and is faster than new, but i got to drive it the entire time. way more enjoyable for me that way, making gradual steady improvement towards thr end goal.

The statement that any changes that aren't hard wont have a large impact on results and must be small is simply ignorant. Anybody who's taken lessons from me can answer if the changes they've made have "substantially improved" their scores and results. Most who've been around me know the story of a certain 2 handicap (began working together 2.5 years ago) who became a professional golfer and has shot 6 course records in the last year and shot a final round 60 to win an event. Will everyone do that, of course not but to imply the way I teach can't create significant changes in results simply doesn't know anything about what I teach or results people have had.

I have multiple juniors who I've taught since before they consistently broke 90 who will play at top 10 college programs. They were taught the same way I teach everyone. Not same things, but same way, which you see as band aiding. The problem is that you believe to reach ones potential there is a way one must swing, and that my players, who's swings you probably wouldn't like, could never reach their potential because the changes weren't physically difficult to implement. At least 7 of them in the next few years will play golf on scholarship, and at least 3 of those will be for top 10 programs. All of them have continually gotten better, and have played tournaments the entire time.

The fundamental difference is some believe there is a way to play the best golf. Others believe there are many options in how to swing a club with no one right answer.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1365544791' post='6795825']
[quote name='Lefthook' timestamp='1365528413' post='6793851']

[size=4]I genuinely believe that a much improved[/size][size=4] good golf swing will never come easy to someone who has been playing for 10-20 year. A big change will require hard work and there will be setbacks. And there is also a certain risk that the efforts never pays off.[/size]

[size=4]A[/size][size=4] change that comes easy is on the other hand a very small change, and it is very unlikely to transform the game substantially. It comes easy because it blends in with the old motion patterns. But it may be enough to get a great season started. And there's no reason to doubt that several increments can lead to great progress long term - if the motor pattern isn't too troubled. [/size][size=4]But to believe that fundamental changes can click instantly is IMO an illusion. [/size]

[/quote]

You act like I just bandaid swings and the changes aren't long term and don't create long term improvement.

I make changes that are for the long term. But rather than change everything all at once, I change one or two pieces at a time. Over time their golfswing looks drastically different and has been "overhauled". The difference is the player never feels like they've been overhauled. I have many golfers go from the 85-95 range to sub 5 handicaps and stay there.

In car terms, some teachers strip a car to its chassis and rebuild from scratch, only issue here is the car isnt very usable for an extendable period of time this way. Others go about it by replacing one panel/part at a time beginning with the most important parts first, the difference is the car is perfectly usable during the process of the "build". The two cars may even end up looking very similar or the same to many. the difference will be how functional the car was in the middle of the process. Funny thing is i build and restore cars and also prefer the later when doing that as well. in the end looks better than new and is faster than new, but i got to drive it the entire time. way more enjoyable for me that way, making gradual steady improvement towards thr end goal.

The statement that any changes that aren't hard wont have a large impact on results and must be small is simply ignorant. Anybody who's taken lessons from me can answer if the changes they've made have "substantially improved" their scores and results. Most who've been around me know the story of a certain 2 handicap (began working together 2.5 years ago) who became a professional golfer and has shot 6 course records in the last year and shot a final round 60 to win an event. Will everyone do that, of course not but to imply the way I teach can't create significant changes in results simply doesn't know anything about what I teach or results people have had.

I have multiple juniors who I've taught since before they consistently broke 90 who will play at top 10 college programs. They were taught the same way I teach everyone. Not same things, but same way, which you see as band aiding. The problem is that you believe to reach ones potential there is a way one must swing, and that my players, who's swings you probably wouldn't like, could never reach their potential because the changes weren't physically difficult to implement. At least 7 of them in the next few years will play golf on scholarship, and at least 3 of those will be for top 10 programs. All of them have continually gotten better, and have played tournaments the entire time.

The fundamental difference is some believe there is a way to play the best golf. Others believe there are many options in how to swing a club with no one right answer.
[/quote]
When someone suggests that you teach a band-aid swing with a high face closure rate, with an Un-leveraged release, it's fairly obvious they have no idea what they are looking at.

[andre112]

It all comes down to different ways of teaching. Both are apples, but just different kind of apples. Some people like the taste of this kind of apple better than that kind. It's a matter of preference. Thanks for sharing your experience, Hstead.

[CSagan]

I'll add I've worked with both. Both guys are overly generous with their time. I've stayed with Geoff and his family 5 or 6 times for 3-4 days at a time. We've sat up at that range cussin and discussing everything from politics to Hogan to Moe. Geoff's always been pretty quick to get back to me, but I know thats not the case for everyone but I imagine its hard to get to everyone when you get 1000 texts a day. I've gone from a flipper staller to a decent player and had some under par rounds in tournament golf under Geoff.

Dan has been very helpful in fixing something that was holding me back pretty quickly. I've lost it a couple times due to old habits and he's been quick to respond as well. Obviously Dan isn't a band-aid teacher of any sort.

They both know what the hell they're doing and they both can improve golfers of any level. They teach very differently so obviously one will be better for different types of people.

[Hstead]

@Jpeacock that is how I took it and maybe I shouldn't have. I edited my original post. My face is not closing rapidly nor do I have a non-leveraged release.

The ball is flying where I am looking and that really is all that matters to me. Some guys will only believe what they want to believe. If you want to believe it takes a bazillion 9-3 swings to make a change and you should never attempt a driver or full swing for months then that is what you are going to believe. For me, the driver was a piece of cake and it took 3 swings. Same for a bunch of other guys. No band aids.

The best part about what Dan teaches you is to not make changes based on feel because feel changes every day. Feel is a moving target. I have played as a low hc for 20 years so I know what "feels" and band aids are. This ain't it.