The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[kg1128]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1366951542' post='6920135']
[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1366922425' post='6917455']
Jim... could you explain that impact illusion (4 inches past the ball?) that you mentioned on the other thread, please.

Thanks in adv....
[/quote]

This is for learning to overcome the early release Hit Impulse flaw. Best done with a driver but can be done with any club, just works better with longer clubs since the ball is closer to left heel in stance. You do it in slow mo first. Look at a spot target-side of the golf ball about 4 inches in front of it, and then Pivot Thrust to move your hands with fully set wrists so that your hands pass your "line of sight" to that point in front of the ball. Do it several times and imagine what it would like to see it at full speed in your swing. Then do it with a half speed motion. Then try a normal swing at half speed and look to see the blur of your hands passing your line of sight with the look and feel of at least some wrist c0ck and hinge of right wrist still intact. A "no release, release" look and feel. It will feel like you will block it dead right on a 45 degree when you do it right and your habit is to throw the wrist angles away too early.

You need to keep proper grip pressure for this drill to work, probably much lighter than most average golfers employ, so that the momentum from your Pivot Thrust will open the wrist c0ck angle for you with no effort on your part. I also call this the Do Nothing With The Wrist Lag drill. You do not hold on to it and you do not throw it away. You simply fire your hips, core and torso starting at around P6 and watch the blur of your hands pass your line of sight.

It works because it extends your swing time sense a bit later into the future, the swing will feel like it is happening at a slower speed, even though it is not, but your time sense will always be slower when you release later and the opposite when you release early.

I try to embrace that feeling of being late with the wrists opening up when I find myself sometimes releasing early. I am not talking about being late with the Pivot Thrust, that would result in a big block to the right. For early releasers of wrist angles, being "on time" will always feel like being "late", and feeling "on time" will always be in fact early, with a flipped right wrist and loss of forward shaft lean.

Poor mental focus and too much emotional energy invested in the shot outcome - especially if you suffer from a lack of distance inferiority complex - will cause you to release wrist angles too early. You really need to clearly focus the mind on seeing that hand path blur and you can actually see it, I am not kidding! You can also see the blur of the clubhead striking the ball, another one of our Balance Point swing fundamentals.

You need to stay awake and aware, in the moment, with an engaged but quiet mind - to see the hand blur past your line of sight. And obviously a very steady head to do so as well. If your head is bobbing around or looking up, you don't have any line of sight to use as a reference point.

Hope that helps!
[/quote]

Jim, thanks for your insight. I just want to clarify something about your post above regarding the mental image to overcome hit impulse.

The horrendous picture I attached is what I see at address.

Are you saying that, during downswing through impact, you want your hands to travel through the GREY line to the target 4 inches ahead of the ball in your line of sight?

It feels like, if arms are passive through the impact zone, hands will travel through the green line, as rotation through the pivot bring your arms around the body, unless
1) arm swings out (i know this is a no already) or
2) center of rotation shifts to the left slightly during transition so the swing arc bottoms out more left

Thanks.

(again, these are not actual positions you would see from a birds eye view camera, these are what my eyes see)

[Jim Waldron]

Actually, the drill is NOT about directing your hand path in any way, ie not a mechanical drill. It is about simply observing the path your hands take just before, during and after impact, with the intention/feel of the wrists maintaining their angles. An exaggeration drill, a mental focus drill - not about doing something with hand path. The key is your line of sight - which you did not include in your diagram. And yes - actual correct hand path would be more like the green line, not grey line. Actually closer to your toe line than the green line even. You grey dot labelled hands approaching impact is too close to the target line. Move your black hand spot a little to the left and then imagine how that would have just past your line of sight down to the 4 inch spot and you will get the idea better.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='dmb316' timestamp='1366987343' post='6921829']
How would you all compare this arm swing illusion (at least for the backswing) to what slicefixer teaches? I'm definitely a 'pivot drives the swing' and powering the inside to move the outside person, but have had problems in getting inside on my backswing because of the 'connection' of the upper left arm.

just coming across this illusion stuff and that 45 degrees to the target line take away topics discussed above, it just explains almost exactly the feel that I have in my takeaway.

taking club selection out of it, look at every top of backswing. almost all lead arms are somewhat parallel to the shoulder line. some flatter, some more upright, but I would argue that ALL are more upright than at address, which tells me if you just move your shoulders and torso to get the to club to the top, it will be way inside and never high enough.

sorry to jump in, but was kinda glad I came across this topic. helps reaffirm some of swing feelings, but would be interested to know what SF folks say and how it may or may not differ from SF's takeaway thoughts, since i've only seen 'straight back for the first 12-18 inches'
[/quote]

I am not familiar enough with what Slicefixer teaches to respond with any kind of accuracy. You are correct that ONLY moving the shoulders will result in a too inside the plane angle position and too low. The human body does require some degree of independent of the pivot arm motion on the backswing to track back on plane.

[Jacob Mac]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1367002090' post='6923493']
[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1366986316' post='6921697']
[quote name='Chris Peterich' timestamp='1366984260' post='6921463']
I hear ya,, I soent 5 solid months,,hitting sometimes 4 hrs plus a day beating the cast. And I did...

A lesson is only good if you apply it..than applying it correctly is the trick.. Everyone expects a "5 ball" and you got it tip. Doesn't happen, if I hear something like this,,I run and run very very fast.
[/quote]

CP, there are several of us that it only took 3 to 5 swings. I have played and tried to "fix" my swing for 20+ years. Spent hours and hours of slo mo drilss in the living room, I can't begin to guess at how many range balls I have hit, all with little to no real changes that lasted. Dan fixed it in 3 swings. Dan will tell you that if you can't improve drasstically in 5 swings or so, something is not right. He is that good. Ask temebolo, CSagan, Eag1e, and several others, they have all experienced the "5 swings". That doesn't mean every does, but a lot do.

I have a couple of kids now and I don't get to spend much time practicing like I did years ago. I have really spent very little time with my new swing and I have videoed it several times, including yesterday. Not once has it been different on video and it actually gets better even without practice. Dan said it would. He said the more you do it the better it will get. I have been getting to play about three times per week with usually at least one or two of those days being 9 holes and I have probably had 3 range sessions total.

I used to be in the "10,000 reps" camp blah blah blah but once Dan explained how and why things work the way they do, it is easy. It is WAY easier now than anything I have ever tried where I put in the 1,000 of reps. This is a peice of cake. No reason to not be able to do it in 3 swings.
[/quote] I have found this thread to be very informative...so thanks to all the contributors. HStead, in your case it seems to me that iTeach gave you the final piece of the puzzle, and that is awesome! I can see the difference in your before and after swings for sure. I think you might be misleading a few people here though with your "it only took 3 swings" reference. I am not doubting you at all, rather I just think it is important to acknowledge that you had a damn good foundation (due IMHO, in large part to your many years of hard work and thousands of reps) before going to see Dan. Sure, Dan unlocked that final missing piece, but at least acknowledge and give yourself credit for having worked your butt off to get your fundamentals sound enough so that fixing you in 3 swings was possible. I just don't want people to be mislead into thinking that it's possible to show up as a 10 hc, take 3 swings, and leave the range as a scratch. For me, this arm swing illusion is making sense and I think it will help with my flaw of letting the right elbow collapse and get too far behind me. In spite of it, somehow I get to a good impact position (with no flip), but I know it will be more efficient if I can get eliminate the unnecessary arm swing/collapse move and required compensatory recovery moves.
[/quote]

I am sure that is true of Hstead. But check out my thread. Dan fixed me up so quickly, and I was really awful when I went to see him. My scores have gone down substantially. I still lose it completely for stretches, but I just have to remind myself to go back to the basics of a straight right arm and a more stable left leg. And then I am back to hitting it better.

I wouldn't underestimate how important of a concept this is. If you figure it out, it can really turn a swing around within a few swings. Completely owning it takes time, but it is impressive stuff.

[gr8blueheronbird]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367000789' post='6923329']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1367000416' post='6923287']
JIm,

Would you equate the "pushing away feeling" that you described somewhat the equivalent of trying to maintain a wide arc? When I took my lessons with Manuel De Le Torre, he really got me thinking about the golf swing as a circle. I have always suffered from shrinking my "circle", if you will. It has helped me tremendously to think of swinging as wide as possible as if I am pushing out against my maximum personal swing arc.
[/quote]

Yes to all of those points. Most average golfers get narrow with arms on Transition, you want get "wide" a bit. If the target line is "north" and to your right is "east" from the golfers viewpoint of himself, then you need to always feel that first part of Transition, your hands/arms are moving toward the "east" NEVER toward the "north" or "west". The Hit Impulse makes your want to move the clubhead and your hands/arms toward the ball or "north' and towards the target or "west" and you really have to be aware enough inside your golf swing to detect that "direcitonal mistake" and move the clubhead and your hands towards the "east". "Go east, young man!"....apologies to Horace Greeley.

I started a long thread on this topic on the ABS forum several years ago if you need further info on it.
[/quote]Jim, if target line is North, then if I look straight ahead at address, is that considered East? then West would be directly behind me and South would be to my right at the opposite end of the target line? Is this correct.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='gr8blueheronbird' timestamp='1367007634' post='6923967']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367000789' post='6923329']
[quote name='The Pearl' timestamp='1367000416' post='6923287']
JIm,

Would you equate the "pushing away feeling" that you described somewhat the equivalent of trying to maintain a wide arc? When I took my lessons with Manuel De Le Torre, he really got me thinking about the golf swing as a circle. I have always suffered from shrinking my "circle", if you will. It has helped me tremendously to think of swinging as wide as possible as if I am pushing out against my maximum personal swing arc.
[/quote]

Yes to all of those points. Most average golfers get narrow with arms on Transition, you want get "wide" a bit. If the target line is "north" and to your right is "east" from the golfers viewpoint of himself, then you need to always feel that first part of Transition, your hands/arms are moving toward the "east" NEVER toward the "north" or "west". The Hit Impulse makes your want to move the clubhead and your hands/arms toward the ball or "north' and towards the target or "west" and you really have to be aware enough inside your golf swing to detect that "direcitonal mistake" and move the clubhead and your hands towards the "east". "Go east, young man!"....apologies to Horace Greeley.

I started a long thread on this topic on the ABS forum several years ago if you need further info on it.
[/quote]Jim, if target line is North, then if I look straight ahead at address, is that considered East? then West would be directly behind me and South would be to my right at the opposite end of the target line? Is this correct.
[/quote]

You must not understand what the term "target line" in golf means, and from the golfers at address viewpoint. You are facing the target line at addresss with your body, eyes and feet parallel to it. That direction is "north", to your right is "east". The target itself is the "west" and behind you is "south". Maybe you are thinking that the target itself is "north"?? Address position is with your eye gaze directed at the ball which sits on the target line, NOT rotating your head to see the target. Turn your head to the right and your eyes are now facing "east". turn back to the ball/target line and you are facing "north". rotate your head to the left and look at the target, that is "west".

[gr8blueheronbird]

Understood now. I was thinking Target itself to the North. That is why I asked the question because it just did not seem right to take your hands/arms to the East. But now that I know East is to my right if I move my head, that sounds better to me. Thank you for the clarification and I am really trying to take this all in. May have to come up to OR(lived in Sherwood,OR for 10 years) and attend your school. Played Quail Valley many times. Home course was Forest Hills.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='gr8blueheronbird' timestamp='1367008544' post='6924025']
Understood now. I was thinking Target itself to the North. That is why I asked the question because it just did not seem right to take your hands/arms to the East. But now that I know East is to my right if I move my head, that sounds better to me. Thank you for the clarification and I am really trying to take this all in. May have to come up to OR(lived in Sherwood,OR for 10 years) and attend your school. Played Quail Valley many times. Home course was Forest Hills.
[/quote]

Cool..stop by next time you visit Portland, I am out there on the far left side of the range most days doing golf schools and lessons.

Glad to know that clarified it for you.

[kg1128]

Jim, the initial movement of hands towards 'east' at transition - how does it happen/what initiates it? is there any mental image or feeling you have in mind to help this move?

It's tough for me. I feel like my instinct to both 1) establish pivot point on the left side, and 2) rotate through downswing really throws the hands and club in (towards target) and front (towards the ball). If I force this "east" movement, I feel like my hands are getting too far towards the ball and my weight stays too much too far back on the right side.

Thanks.

[russc1597187869]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367007438' post='6923955']
[quote name='dmb316' timestamp='1366987343' post='6921829']
How would you all compare this arm swing illusion (at least for the backswing) to what slicefixer teaches? I'm definitely a 'pivot drives the swing' and powering the inside to move the outside person, but have had problems in getting inside on my backswing because of the 'connection' of the upper left arm.

just coming across this illusion stuff and that 45 degrees to the target line take away topics discussed above, it just explains almost exactly the feel that I have in my takeaway.

taking club selection out of it, look at every top of backswing. almost all lead arms are somewhat parallel to the shoulder line. some flatter, some more upright, but I would argue that ALL are more upright than at address, which tells me if you just move your shoulders and torso to get the to club to the top, it will be way inside and never high enough.

sorry to jump in, but was kinda glad I came across this topic. helps reaffirm some of swing feelings, but would be interested to know what SF folks say and how it may or may not differ from SF's takeaway thoughts, since i've only seen 'straight back for the first 12-18 inches'
[/quote]

I am not familiar enough with what Slicefixer teaches to respond with any kind of accuracy. You are correct that ONLY moving the shoulders will result in a too inside the plane angle position and too low. The human body does require some degree of independent of the pivot arm motion on the backswing to track back on plane.
[/quote]
My comments are in the context of some of Jim ideas that i have first seen in this thread so i am hardly confident that these comments are correct
The concepts that Jim has introduced should result in takeaway similar to that suggested by Geoff Jones.If you just take the 45 degree angle in isolation and assume that the torso does NOT turn ,then you will get a really disconnected/outside takeaway.but if you understand that the torso is turning to the inside,then the 45 degree angle to your turning torso should result in the clubhead being taken relatively straight back.Another way of looking at this is to look down on your left arm during the takeaway.Your torso is turning to the inside but your arm which should be going relatively straight back will from a golfers viewpoint be at about a 45 degree angle to your torso

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='russc' timestamp='1367009855' post='6924113']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367007438' post='6923955']
[quote name='dmb316' timestamp='1366987343' post='6921829']
How would you all compare this arm swing illusion (at least for the backswing) to what slicefixer teaches? I'm definitely a 'pivot drives the swing' and powering the inside to move the outside person, but have had problems in getting inside on my backswing because of the 'connection' of the upper left arm.

just coming across this illusion stuff and that 45 degrees to the target line take away topics discussed above, it just explains almost exactly the feel that I have in my takeaway.

taking club selection out of it, look at every top of backswing. almost all lead arms are somewhat parallel to the shoulder line. some flatter, some more upright, but I would argue that ALL are more upright than at address, which tells me if you just move your shoulders and torso to get the to club to the top, it will be way inside and never high enough.

sorry to jump in, but was kinda glad I came across this topic. helps reaffirm some of swing feelings, but would be interested to know what SF folks say and how it may or may not differ from SF's takeaway thoughts, since i've only seen 'straight back for the first 12-18 inches'
[/quote]

I am not familiar enough with what Slicefixer teaches to respond with any kind of accuracy. You are correct that ONLY moving the shoulders will result in a too inside the plane angle position and too low. The human body does require some degree of independent of the pivot arm motion on the backswing to track back on plane.
[/quote]
My comments are in the context of some of Jim ideas that i have first seen in this thread so i am hardly confident that these comments are correct
The concepts that Jim has introduced should result in takeaway similar to that suggested by Geoff Jones.If you just take the 45 degree angle in isolation and assume that the torso does NOT turn ,then you will get a really disconnected/outside takeaway.but if you understand that the torso is turning to the inside,then the 45 degree angle to your turning torso should result in the clubhead being taken relatively straight back.Another way of looking at this is to look down on your left arm during the takeaway.Your torso is turning to the inside but your arm which should be going relatively straight back will from a golfers viewpoint be at about a 45 degree angle to your torso
[/quote]

Correct, Russc. A 45 degree chest turn plus a 45 degree left arm to chest angle = a 90 degree rotation of the entire clubshaft, as it should be by end of takeaway, like a door swinging open from it's gatepost/hinge. I don't advocate a clubhead path that is straight back for 12-18 inches however, That would be just a little outside the ideal shaft plane angle. If it is truly on plane, the clubhead will move to the inside almost immediately, on a very shallow arc. But - I have no problem with that slightly outside the plane move, it is how most tour pros do it, and much better than too much to the inside.

[Jim Waldron]

KG - You need a lesson! I could write a long paragraph about what to do on transiton that might help you - in theory only - and maybe two out of a hundred people reading this would actually understand it. And some would get worse attempting to do what I wrote here. Not because what I wrote was incorrect - which it isn't - but because it is very, very easy to mis-interpret the written word when attempting to learn a golf swing.


Guys - forums like this are NOT a substitute for a lesson. At a minimum, you need a Remote Lesson via webcam or at least youtube video analysis followed by a phone call consult.

And if you really want to basically guarantee a positive outcome - you need an in person lesson!

Forums like these are fine for discussing in very general terms and in Big Picture kinds of ways various aspects of the golf swing, but in general the Internet golf culture has degenerated over the past few years into a place where many folks think that they can self-learn a really effective golf swing from reading forums. And of course, there will always be a very tiny minority who will be successful, but well below 1% who attempt it in my estimation.

Understanding technical swing theory does not even get you into the ballpark - in most cases, although it can move you in the general directon of the ballpark.


A Big Picture concept that move KG in the right direction is that your hands move correctly on Transition from a blend of rightward spine tilt from both lubmar spine and mid-thoracic, and from lateral tailbone shift to the left a little bit, and from rotation of hips, core and chest. But - the sequencing and timing of all of that is quite complex. Which brings me back to my original point - you need a lesson!

And this is going to be my response to most of you who are asking me for an answer to a very individiual specific and/or technical swing question. I have an ethical obligation to "first do no harm". Big Picture concepts like some of the Illusions or very general swing theory concepts and ideas on some parts of the mental game, or putting or short game are a different story. Transition is by far the most complex segment of the golf swing and there are basically 8-12 things you must do with various body parts in three different stages, and five things you should not do that your brain wants you to do, ie things you need to inhibit.

I realize that this is an answer that many of you do not want to hear, and I am okay with that. That dumbing-down of the golf swing and how to learn it and how to fix it when broken by the golf media that has been happening since before I was born is the culprit - not you guys. You have been mis-led into thinking that golf is a consciuos mind controlled sport - which if it were true would make it the ONLY sport in the world that would be that way. Of course it is not true - not even close.

KG - a lot of the "eastward" motion is because the right elbow is slowly straightening and some of it is because of rightward spine tilt. I hope that very simple and non-technical answer helps you, please let me know if it does. Sounds like your issue might be that you are ball-bound and mentally reacting to the ball, ie moving your hands toward the ball as I mentioned in my first post on this topic, which is basically saying you are using static or non-athtletic hand-eye manipulation and surrendering to the Hit Impulse. But - that is just an educated guess on my part. Your real problem could in fact be one of a dozen or more things, hence my advicde to get a lesson.

[oldpalchamp]

Thanks for all of this great information. For years (and I mean years) is have struggled with sucking the club inside on the back swing. I get to a decent position at the top, but would really like to take the club back more on plane.

After I figured out what was meant by the club working away from the body when not incorporating a pivot, and how it translated into the backswing with a pivot, it made sense. I went to the range at lunch today, and hit balls with an alignment marker set to my left heel and out by my right toes (approx. 45*), and practiced turning away from the ball extending out. My club was right on top of the alignment marker. From there I continued my pivot and let my right elbow fold. I wish I had someone shooting video, because it felt great. I know that sometimes "feel" isn't real, but I hit some great shots.

[raytracer]

A picture would really be worth a million words here. I'm having trouble [size=3] [/size][color=#282828]visualizing what is being described. [/color]

[color=#282828]Are you saying that the arms move less like an ape swinging them (side to side) and more like a priest holding up the wine for blessing(lifting them straight out and up)?[/color]

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='oldpalchamp' timestamp='1367013150' post='6924337']
Thanks for all of this great information. For years (and I mean years) is have struggled with sucking the club inside on the back swing. I get to a decent position at the top, but would really like to take the club back more on plane.

After I figured out what was meant by the club working away from the body when not incorporating a pivot, and how it translated into the backswing with a pivot, it made sense. I went to the range at lunch today, and hit balls with an alignment marker set to my left heel and out by my right toes (approx. 45*), and practiced turning away from the ball extending out. My club was right on top of the alignment marker. From there I continued my pivot and let my right elbow fold. I wish I had someone shooting video, because it felt great. I know that sometimes "feel" isn't real, but I hit some great shots.

Yes - the very first flaw that the Illusion creates is inside with the arms during Takeaway. Very common, probably 99% of golfers about 10 handicap and higher do this move naturally, and will keep doing it for the rest of their golf career, unless instructed on how not to do it, and even a lot of those folks will still revert back to it, again - for one simple reason. Their subconscious mind's Swing Map has been "programmed" by the Illusion into believing that the arms "swing" across and around the body in a good golf swing.

A well known tv swing analyst even says this about tour pros about their release segments! Drives me crazy to hear him say "Tiger is now swinging his arms past his body!" I actually cringe because now the Illusion will become deeply imprinted in the minds of millions of viewers who struggle with disconnected arms during release. Another tv analyst - two actually - do understand the reality behind the Illusion and one will often say about a very bad shot, and correctly "...on that shot he swung his arms across his body and pulled it into the water".

Very easy to conflate "past his body" with the reality which is "past his face" in the case of a normal good shot by a tour pro.
[/quote]

[avrag]

This is a great discussion.
Reading this thread, I remembered something Nick Faldo said during yesterday's broadcast, and it stuck in my mind, because I thought that this was one of the rare occasions when something useful about the swing was being said during the coverage of a Tour event. With regard to Justin Rose's swing, which was shown in slow-motion, Faldo said something like:
"See, that is so simple. Turn your belly button so that it faces away from the target and then turn so that it faces the target. Practice this by taking your driver, stick the butt end into your belly button, hold it well below the grip and then just turn your belly button away from the target and then towards the target. You obviously can't hit the ball that way, but if you translate that feeling into the swing, you have gone a long way, because really there is not much else going on in the golf swing. Your arms will have to move some in a real swing and then your right elbow will fold, but if you keep that feeling like you still want the butt of the club pointing at your belly button, you will be in a much better position than most amateurs."
Hearing this, I also remembered Martin Chuck putting my right arm into a pipe with almost no elbow bend in it and and letting me swing that way to get the feeling of width.
With the input from this thread now, everything seems to make more sense to me.
I am a person who needs to hear or read or experience the same thing in a few different ways before I can begin to really "own" a concept.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367014053' post='6924385']
A picture would really be worth a million words here. I'm having trouble [size=3] [/size][color=#282828]visualizing what is being described. [/color]

[color=#282828]Are you saying that the arms move less like an ape swinging them (side to side) and more like a priest holding up the wine for blessing(lifting them straight out and up)?[/color]
[/quote]

I really can't make this any clearer, but the confusion only proves my point about how universal the notion of "arms swinging is".

Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end. Dont pivot your body - not a millimeter of turn. Push your left arms out along that 45 degree angled shaft on the ground, ie over the shaft so that your left arm is directly over it and parallel to the ground. Do it without a club in your hand - just like shaking hands. Now raise your left arm straight up toward the sky about 6-12 inches, six inches for a short, stocky inflexible endo body type, 12 inches for a tall, flexibel, ecto body type. You are now at the Top as far as the arm motion goes. Now - without letting ANY independent arm motion happen, just coil your core and chest to the right to a Top of backswing Pivot position. You are now there - IF you did not in fact pull your arms closer to your chest and behind you. Fairly easy to achieve that with left arm only drill, add both arms to a club - much, much harder. 99% of my new students will pull in and around by several inches and be 100% unconscious that they are doing this mistake.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='avrag' timestamp='1367014814' post='6924429']
This is a great discussion.
Reading this thread, I remembered something Nick Faldo said during yesterday's broadcast, and it stuck in my mind, because I thought that this was one of the rare occasions when something useful about the swing was being said during the coverage of a Tour event. With regard to Justin Rose's swing, which was shown in slow-motion, Faldo said something like:
"See, that is so simple. Turn your belly button so that it faces away from the target and then turn so that it faces the target. Practice this by taking your driver, stick the butt end into your belly button, hold it well below the grip and then just turn your belly button away from the target and then towards the target. You obviously can't hit the ball that way, but if you translate that feeling into the swing, you have gone a long way, because really there is not much else going on in the golf swing. Your arms will have to move some in a real swing and then your right elbow will fold, but if you keep that feeling like you still want the butt of the club pointing at your belly button, you will be in a much better position than most amateurs."
Hearing this, I also remembered Martin Chuck putting my right arm into a pipe with almost no elbow bend in it and and letting me swing that way to get the feeling of width.
With the input from this thread now, everything seems to make more sense to me.
I am a person who needs to hear or read or experience the same thing in a few different ways before I can begin to really "own" a concept.
[/quote]

Faldo was one of the two analysts I referred to who "gets it". The other is Peter Oosterhuis. Please don't ask me who the guy who does not "get it" is, not my style, and in any case does not matter who it is, the point is that even famous swing analysts are operating under the spell of the Illusion....and there are at least 31 other illusions...

[raytracer]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367014883' post='6924437']
Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.
[/quote]

This is the piece I dont get - are you saying put a club parallel to the target line along toes? 45* angle to your right what? Is it a typo? Did you mean to say 'hand'?

[CSagan]

[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367015280' post='6924471']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367014883' post='6924437']
Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.
[/quote]

This is the piece I dont get - are you saying put a club parallel to the target line along toes? 45* angle to your right what? Is it a typo? Did you mean to say 'hand'?
[/quote]

Imagine you're standing on a clock. The ball is at 12 o clock front and center. You are facing the ball. Now lay a shaft down between your feet pointing to about 1:30...so its angled to the right (about 45 degrees). Now do the arm straight out that way...thats the motion.

[raytracer]

So move your left arm, without any turn or pivot, to cover the club shaft on the ground as shown here?

 

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='raytracer' timestamp='1367015280' post='6924471']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1367014883' post='6924437']
Lay a club down between your feet, center of stance, at your toe line with the clubhead end, and at a 45 degree angle to your right and towards the target line with the grip end.
[/quote]

This is the piece I dont get - are you saying put a club parallel to the target line along toes? 45* angle to your right what? Is it a typo? Did you mean to say 'hand'?
[/quote]

No - not a club parallel to target line. A club with one end resting on your toe line at center of your stance, and the other end on or near the target line, but the shaft is angled 45 degrees off the toe line to your right. Not perpendicular to the toe line, 45 degrees to it - but to the right. The point being it can only be angled 45 degrees in two possible ways - to your left, which is wrong, and to your right, which is correct.

And again - your confusion is not unusual, this is the norm, because your brain is using an unconscious perceptual filter to think of the arms moving more or less parallel to your toe line for the first segment of takeaway and then around your body, "behind you".

You move your arms "around" your FACE and your LINE OF SIGHT in a good golf swing - NOT around your body or your chest. INCLUDING DURING RELEASE - YOUR ARMS SHOULD BE WELL RIGHT OF MID-LINE MEASURING YOUR ARMS AT YOUR HANDS UNTIL WELL AFTER IMPACT. Like a back-fist strike in karate or a one -handed backhand in tennis.

I am not kidding about this - NOT an exaggeration drill. REALITY!

[J13]

Great thread going here. Jim thanks for chiming in you have some great info.

[Jim Waldron]

So move your left arm, without any turn or pivot, to cover the club shaft on the ground as shown here?

 

 

Yes, Ray - that is perfect. I wish I was more computer/tech literate, I am really such a Luddite, I would post more diagrams and pics and vids. I apologize for still living in the 20th century when it comes to computers.

 

Remember - one HUGE CAVEAT! That shaft line on the ground does NOT exist in a real golf swing - ONLY for this drill, because in a real golf swing, your chest is always rotating, and that 45 angle is really up in the air about waist height and always in front of your rotating chest. If you pushed your arm away and that 45 degree angle on the ground and waited a beat, and then started to rotate your chest, your shaft and arms would be WAY OUTSIDE THE IDEAL PLANE, kind of how Trevino, Couples, Furyk and Jay Haas do it.

[dlygrisse]

So move your left arm, without any turn or pivot, to cover the club shaft on the ground as shown here?

 

 

Yes, Ray - that is perfect. I wish I was more computer/tech literate, I am really such a Luddite, I would post more diagrams and pics and vids. I apologize for still living in the 20th century when it comes to computers.

 

Remember - one HUGE CAVEAT! That shaft line on the ground does NOT exist in a real golf swing - ONLY for this drill, because in a real golf swing, your chest is always rotating, and that 45 angle is really up in the air about waist height and always in front of your rotating chest. If you pushed your arm away and that 45 degree angle on the ground and waited a beat, and then started to rotate your chest, your shaft and arms would be WAY OUTSIDE THE IDEAL PLANE, kind of how Trevino, Couples, Furyk and Jay Haas do it.

 

I was thinking about this thread today at work......I was going to ask, is this what Couples, Haas and Trevino do? Great discussion let us know when your book/DVD come out I would seriously consider buying it. Do you have anything on Youtube, would love to see it.

[Jim Waldron]

Youtube is coming soon, with some new vids, to go with our new website which went online about ten days ago. I have done many podcasts as well with Fred Greene at golfsmarter.com.

I am off to Turtle Bay to play 18, will check back in later tonight.

[PingEye2]

[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1366992225' post='6922373']
[quote name='beutelwomb' timestamp='1366966136' post='6920509']
Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!
[/quote]

No.

Think of a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that they don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body
[/quote]

I totally get the backswing V but when I see arms/hands drop straight down then the club steepens rather than shallows. What am I missing? Thanks

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='PingEye2' timestamp='1367020141' post='6924827']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1366992225' post='6922373']
[quote name='beutelwomb' timestamp='1366966136' post='6920509']
Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!
[/quote]

No.

Think of a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that they don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body
[/quote]

I totally get the backswing V but when I see arms/hands drop straight down then the club steepens rather than shallows. What am I missing? Thanks
[/quote]

The right elbow moves closer to the left elbow as the arms fall.

[HappyGolf]

I think this video is close to what Jim is trying to say.... when you're in your address position the club moves up an imaginary plane line from the ball to somewhere outside your right ear (between right ear and right shoulder depending where you have your hands at address)..... but this happens as you make your turn.. giving the illusion that you are actually swinging the club in a tilted/inclined plane around behind your body when in actual fact the club is pretty much staying in front of your torso... (you're just adding the shoulder turn on the way back but the club is basically still in front of your upper chest)... a picture says 1000 words and a video probably says more than that, so here you go...

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_JES-8I-VAk[/media]


(Is that about right Jim?)

This guy will NOT feel like he's swinging the club around behind himself, on the contrary, he will feel like the club pretty much stays in front of him and somewhat parallel to the target line... even though he's made a full shoulder turn. His downswing will feel like he's swinging down the target line and then going left with his turn... not having to drag the club back to the ball from somewhere in the backseat of his pants!

[PingEye2]

[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1367021601' post='6924963']
[quote name='PingEye2' timestamp='1367020141' post='6924827']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1366992225' post='6922373']
[quote name='beutelwomb' timestamp='1366966136' post='6920509']
Quick question: The arm motion on the downswing would be the same motion backwards, pulling the arm towards your body ?!
[/quote]

No.

Think of a V and a U. The arm movement is V shaped in the backswing and U shaped on the downswing.

The V is the result of a scooping action on the backswing and the left arm moving slightly to the right as it goes up.

The U is the result of the arms dropping, almost straight down, to hip height. This is to the right of your mid-line. Jim teaches that they then come to a stop whilst connected to the chest and that they don’t move across the chest until after impact.

At the schools Jim taught that you should never pull the arms down or across the body
[/quote]

I totally get the backswing V but when I see arms/hands drop straight down then the club steepens rather than shallows. What am I missing? Thanks
[/quote]

The right elbow moves closer to the left elbow as the arms fall.
[/quote]

Thanks