USGA's Pace Of Play initiative/"While we're young" commercials(merged)

[ctmason_98]

[quote name='TML' timestamp='1373670968' post='7443898']
you know why this is a crock when people continue to bring up excuses, like wrong tees, tough courses, tough conditions, etc.?

I have been to Bandon Dunes about 14 times. In all of those trips, which I would average about 5 rds per trip, the longest round ever was 4.5 hrs. Typically, rounds average 4hrs. I've had quite a few rounds when I've been first off, done in just over 3 hrs.

Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails, Old Macdonald, are some of the toughest, most demanding courses on this planet. On top of that, everyone walks. The reason and only reason golf doesn't take 5+ hrs there, is because most of the golfers, like to play ready fast golf. They don't dick around. We play in 4'somes all the time. The walks aren't that easy.

So you can bring up all the reasons why we can't play faster, but the truth is that the only thing that matters is the golfers out there on the course. This has nothing to do with secondary excuses.
[/quote]

I don't believe anyone is saying that "we can't play faster," but rather why slow pace happens, at least in part.

And to your point about pace at Bandon Dunes et al, are tee times backed up constantly? The course is packed every day you've played there? If so, then indeed this is a situation where course management and ready golf is working in a stellar manner and its a model for others to follow. Keep in mind, there have been several instances of people complaining about 4.5 hour rounds here though.

I would just ask that you don't believe the minimum $75 greens fee -- more likely above $120 most times -- doesn't have anything to do with the pace of play?

Assuming that all that you say is correct, I'm not sure what you think is a "crock?" The pace of play initiative? People who believe it is ineffective?

[Sean2]

[quote name='TML' timestamp='1373670968' post='7443898']
you know why this is a crock when people continue to bring up excuses, like wrong tees, tough courses, tough conditions, etc.?

I have been to Bandon Dunes about 14 times. In all of those trips, which I would average about 5 rds per trip, the longest round ever was 4.5 hrs. Typically, rounds average 4hrs. I've had quite a few rounds when I've been first off, done in just over 3 hrs.

Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails, Old Macdonald, are some of the toughest, most demanding courses on this planet. On top of that, everyone walks. The reason and only reason golf doesn't take 5+ hrs there, is because most of the golfers, like to play ready fast golf. They don't dick around. We play in 4'somes all the time. The walks aren't that easy.

So you can bring up all the reasons why we can't play faster, but the truth is that the only thing that matters is the golfers out there on the course. This has nothing to do with secondary excuses.
[/quote]

14 times? I always wanted to go there. Someday I hope I get the opportunity. (Sorry for the segue).

[TML]

[quote name='ctmason_98' timestamp='1373676177' post='7444328']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1373670968' post='7443898']
you know why this is a crock when people continue to bring up excuses, like wrong tees, tough courses, tough conditions, etc.?

I have been to Bandon Dunes about 14 times. In all of those trips, which I would average about 5 rds per trip, the longest round ever was 4.5 hrs. Typically, rounds average 4hrs. I've had quite a few rounds when I've been first off, done in just over 3 hrs.

Bandon Dunes, Pacific Dunes, Bandon Trails, Old Macdonald, are some of the toughest, most demanding courses on this planet. On top of that, everyone walks. The reason and only reason golf doesn't take 5+ hrs there, is because most of the golfers, like to play ready fast golf. They don't dick around. We play in 4'somes all the time. The walks aren't that easy.

So you can bring up all the reasons why we can't play faster, but the truth is that the only thing that matters is the golfers out there on the course. This has nothing to do with secondary excuses.
[/quote]

I don't believe anyone is saying that "we can't play faster," but rather why slow pace happens, at least in part.

And to your point about pace at Bandon Dunes et al, are tee times backed up constantly? The course is packed every day you've played there? If so, then indeed this is a situation where course management and ready golf is working in a stellar manner and its a model for others to follow. Keep in mind, there have been several instances of people complaining about 4.5 hour rounds here though.

I would just ask that you don't believe the minimum $75 greens fee -- more likely above $120 most times -- doesn't have anything to do with the pace of play?

Assuming that all that you say is correct, I'm not sure what you think is a "crock?" The pace of play initiative? People who believe it is ineffective?
[/quote]
Courses are packed every day, 7 days a week. You have to book 1yr in advance or more to get your desired tee times. Yeah, I understand there have been some complaints of 4.5 hr rds, but that is the exception rather than the rule. Try playing Pebble where you are pushing 5.5 hr rounds.

Crock are all the excuses in this thread, why people can't and more importantly, won't play faster ready golf. Go back 1 page, and you can read how someone won't play faster based on his own version of what constitutes ready golf. This isn't the owner of Fry's Electronics who built his own championship golf course in silicon valley and can play any speed he wants because he 1) owns the course, 2) is the only one on the course all day.

You are paying a greens fee to play in a tee time with an expected pace of play. When you dictate your own version of that pace of play, you impact everyone behind you - similar to a turtle in the left passing lane on a highway. Even on this golf-nuts forum and thread, you can see how many turtles think 4.5 hrs is fast.

[darnthealarm]

Golf Channel is reluctant to blame the slow demise of golf on the cost of equiptment along with slow play. They skirt all around equiptment cost by never directly approach the subject. Just a bunch of guys on payola from Nike, Callaway, Adams, Bridgestone, etc.

[ABgolfer2]

[quote name='darnthealarm' timestamp='1373726603' post='7446826']
Golf Channel is reluctant to blame the slow demise of golf on the cost of equiptment along with slow play. They skirt all around equiptment cost by never directly approach the subject. Just a bunch of guys on payola from Nike, Callaway, Adams, Bridgestone, etc.
[/quote]

I can get a used starter set an balls for $50. Maybe expensive high end gear (no more expensive than 25 years ago btw) weeds out the one and done posers. Wi win for golf.

[duffer987]

@TML, I do not agree that it's just about the golfers, the courses can play a big part in this. Bandon is a great example of it, for how courses can improve the pace of play and the experience.

- Bandon resort does not have 8 minute tee-times
- Bandon does not have scrambles going off each Sat at 7am & 10am
- Bandon does not have groups getting langered on the course slamming balls all over the place
- Bandon does not have forced carries off the tee or very many internal water hazards
- Bandon does not have two cart girls roaming the course stopping golfers whenever and wherever they can make a few bucks
- Bandon is not cart path only
- Bandon does not have large distances from green to tee (except maybe 3/4 and 8/9 on Bandon and the obvious one on Trails)
- Bandon is not penal, there are very few holes that do not let you play a shot shape and have a bail out area and being links golf you can play the ground game and progress nicely
- Bandon does actively marshal
- Bandon for the most part is a fairly easy walk
- Bandon will attract better, more knowledgable players who should be wary of pace of play and hit better shots requiring less looking around
- Bandon can provide caddies who can help guide players to better lines to and on the green, which should lessen the number of shots
- Bandon is a fair test of golf

All of these things contribute to the pace of play and only a couple I mentioned were the players themselves.

[TML]

you are blaming courses for pace of play. I blame golfers. That's where we differ.

[legitimategolf]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1373734774' post='7447492']
@TML, I do not agree that it's just about the golfers, the courses can play a big part in this. Bandon is a great example of it, for how courses can improve the pace of play and the experience.

- Bandon resort does not have 8 minute tee-times
- Bandon does not have scrambles going off each Sat at 7am & 10am
- Bandon does not have groups getting langered on the course slamming balls all over the place
- Bandon does not have forced carries off the tee or very many internal water hazards
- Bandon does not have two cart girls roaming the course stopping golfers whenever and wherever they can make a few bucks
- Bandon is not cart path only
- Bandon does not have large distances from green to tee (except maybe 3/4 and 8/9 on Bandon and the obvious one on Trails)
- Bandon is not penal, there are very few holes that do not let you play a shot shape and have a bail out area and being links golf you can play the ground game and progress nicely
- Bandon does actively marshal
- Bandon for the most part is a fairly easy walk
- Bandon will attract better, more knowledgable players who should be wary of pace of play and hit better shots requiring less looking around
- Bandon can provide caddies who can help guide players to better lines to and on the green, which should lessen the number of shots
- Bandon is a fair test of golf
[/quote]

Good god, I really need to play this "Bandon" course you speak of.

[duffer987]

[quote name='TML' timestamp='1373750150' post='7448484']
you are blaming courses for pace of play. I blame golfers. That's where we differ.
[/quote]

I don't think golfers are 'blameless'. Just don't think it's as simple as clueless golfers being slow and telling them 'while we're young' is the best way to go about it addressing the issue. I've played rounds lasting between 2:15hr and 5:45hr this year and a lot of the variables in those time differences are down to the golf courses. Particularly the 8min tee-time intervals.

@exquisitechip - if nothing else comes from this thread, but you visiting Bandon Golf Resort it will have been worth it
Truly a special place.

[Awsi Dooger]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1373288521' post='7407788'] I think this fast play crap is getting out of hand, and a lot of sheep are just following along with this initiative mindlessly playing as fast as possible heedless of the actual pace. [/quote]

Exactly. That's been my experience here in Miami. I've mentioned it several times. The new obsession with slow play has caused countless awkward moments at my home course. Players now hit into groups ahead of them. I've seen many confrontations. Singles and even groups with multiple players feel free to drive beyond anyone ahead of them. Sometimes it feels like an episode of Candid Camera. There's absolutely nowhere to go, the pace is fine, yet here comes the cart behind you. They don't wave or even acknowledge you. Now they're stuck in front of you, which leads to the tense exchange on the tee box. Tempers flared.

None of this was a problem until slow play became a focal point. Now it's an issue virtually every time I play with my regular group.

When I play as a single I make sure to respect the group in front of me, to play at their pace. It's quite relaxing. Nobody benefits from tailgating golfers. If I need to jump around to a different spot on the course, I make sure there's a considerable window in front and behind.

[fore]

[quote name='Awsi Dooger' timestamp='1373784070' post='7450886']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1373288521' post='7407788'] I think this fast play crap is getting out of hand, and a lot of sheep are just following along with this initiative mindlessly playing as fast as possible heedless of the actual pace. [/quote]

Exactly. That's been my experience here in Miami. I've mentioned it several times. The new obsession with slow play has caused countless awkward moments at my home course. Players now hit into groups ahead of them. I've seen many confrontations. Singles and even groups with multiple players feel free to drive beyond anyone ahead of them. Sometimes it feels like an episode of Candid Camera. There's absolutely nowhere to go, the pace is fine, yet here comes the cart behind you. They don't wave or even acknowledge you. Now they're stuck in front of you, which leads to the tense exchange on the tee box. Tempers flared.

None of this was a problem until slow play became a focal point. Now it's an issue virtually every time I play with my regular group.

When I play as a single I make sure to respect the group in front of me, to play at their pace. It's quite relaxing. Nobody benefits from tailgating golfers. If I need to jump around to a different spot on the course, I make sure there's a considerable window in front and behind.
[/quote]


Folks used to complain that the USGA should try to do something about slow play instead of anchored putters. So the USGA tried to make people aware of the slow play problem. (It would have been cool to use the actual clip of Rodney from the movie.)

Now folks complain about the poor etiquette of some resulting from the "while we're young" campaign. I've noticed no difference in pace of play. In a foursome we usually finish in less than 4 hours. Though that seems slow to me, it's not unbearable.

But, I have to ask, What do you think the USGA should do to address slow play?

I think a certain amount of the responsibility lies with the golfing community to help educate others on proper etiquette. When I started playing, what I didn't learn from the etiquette section of the rules I learned from the old timers on the course.

[TML]

[quote name='duffer987' timestamp='1373776208' post='7450514']
[quote name='TML' timestamp='1373750150' post='7448484']
you are blaming courses for pace of play. I blame golfers. That's where we differ.
[/quote]

I don't think golfers are 'blameless'. Just don't think it's as simple as clueless golfers being slow and telling them 'while we're young' is the best way to go about it addressing the issue. I've played rounds lasting between 2:15hr and 5:45hr this year and a lot of the variables in those time differences are down to the golf courses. Particularly the 8min tee-time intervals.

@exquisitechip - if nothing else comes from this thread, but you visiting Bandon Golf Resort it will have been worth it
Truly a special place.
[/quote]
yep - take your car monopoly piece, head straight past "Pebble", and go directly to "Bandon-Jail".

[sigmapete1]

[quote name='TML' timestamp='1373750150' post='7448484']
you are blaming courses for pace of play. I blame golfers. That's where we differ.
[/quote]

Sure, the golfers are the slow ones, but more often than not, it is the once a month golfer that doesn't know any better or maybe the regular golfer that is oblivious to anyone but themselves. They aren't here on WRX listening to you, they are switching over to baseball during the "while we're young" commercials, they have no concept of ready golf. So what is the only way they will learn? Courses being active in marshalling and taking other steps. To absolve courses completely, because "its the golfers," fails to consider how much a courses action, or inaction, can have an effect on those golfers.

[TML]

@sigma - i see the "this is our regular 4'some, I'm playing for a $2 nassau, and I'm not giving my opponent the 2 ft putt" group more than any other type being an issue.

To be honest, I belong to a private club where 4 hr rounds are the goal and achievement (most rds are in 3.5 hrs). We all play fast ready golf, and golf is much more enjoyable than when I did not have the membership.

When I travel is when I get the reminder of how slow golf is and why I would never fault anyone from giving up the game.

[DavePelz4]

Last week I took a shot at a course here in IL for an un-marshaled course and long PoP. Yesterday we had the opposite experience and I want to throw a shout out to The Oak Club of Genoa. When we checked in they were VERY hesitant to let us walk as it's about a 7 mile trek up and down hills and it was 89 with a real feel temp exceeding 100. We convinced the owner that we play fast (not necessarily well though) and he let us walk.

To his credit, he came and checked on our pace on the 2nd and 4th holes...saw that we were keeping pace and then came back on #5 and said there was a slow foursome and he would move the group in front of us and us in front of them. The first group went through on the next tee and we went on the one after.

The Oak Club is a really tough track and as mentioned a 7 mile hike. We're seniors and finished the round in under 3:20 on a Sunday afternoon. Did I mention we didn't play well either? It can be done but it takes a combined effort throughout.

[mshills]

[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1373295327' post='7408512']
[quote name='Ruddy' timestamp='1373293753' post='7408288']
Sorry, but this is part of the slow play problem. A single takes less than half the time a threesome takes, especially if the threesome plays from different tees. A single going around is actually courteous, because he isn't pushing you and your family "cruising along". As posted by numerous others here, a single plays in 2 - 3 hours, so you ARE playing too slowly.
[/quote]

What is part of the problem??? This is, ummm.......WRONG. The accepted policy on a single is that "...a single has no standing on the course...", meaning that if you choose to play as a single, you have to adjust to the groups ahead of you, and NOT vice versa. Everyone knows that. The marshal yesterday acknowledged the same. Are you trying to say that everyone should let a single through, and wait while he plays each hole that they would otherwise be playing? Don't be ridiculous.

Edited: I will add that it is coureous to let singles play through, and I always do, however that is the perogative of the party in front. Yesterday the Jackass was not directly behind us and appeared out of nowhere to cut in front of us.
[/quote]

Since when does a single have no standing on the course?

I will concede that particularly on weekends, the course should force singles to pair up with other groups of less than four. That's just good tee sheet management. But the "singles have no standing" is simply an urban legend.

I see that you were a twosome and played 18 holes in 4:10. Sorry, but unless the course is exceptionally spread out and/or has lots of elevation changes, that is an exceptionally [u]SLOW[/u] pace. I'm no proponent of "speed golf" but what you are describing is slow play.

[thug the bunny]

[quote name='mshills' timestamp='1373998957' post='7466454']
[quote name='thug the bunny' timestamp='1373295327' post='7408512']
[quote name='Ruddy' timestamp='1373293753' post='7408288']
Sorry, but this is part of the slow play problem. A single takes less than half the time a threesome takes, especially if the threesome plays from different tees. A single going around is actually courteous, because he isn't pushing you and your family "cruising along". As posted by numerous others here, a single plays in 2 - 3 hours, so you ARE playing too slowly.
[/quote]

What is part of the problem??? This is, ummm.......WRONG. The accepted policy on a single is that "...a single has no standing on the course...", meaning that if you choose to play as a single, you have to adjust to the groups ahead of you, and NOT vice versa. Everyone knows that. The marshal yesterday acknowledged the same. Are you trying to say that everyone should let a single through, and wait while he plays each hole that they would otherwise be playing? Don't be ridiculous.

Edited: I will add that it is coureous to let singles play through, and I always do, however that is the perogative of the party in front. Yesterday the Jackass was not directly behind us and appeared out of nowhere to cut in front of us.
[/quote]

Since when does a single have no standing on the course?

I will concede that particularly on weekends, the course should force singles to pair up with other groups of less than four. That's just good tee sheet management. But the "singles have no standing" is simply an urban legend.

I see that you were a twosome and played 18 holes in 4:10. Sorry, but unless the course is exceptionally spread out and/or has lots of elevation changes, that is an exceptionally [u]SLOW[/u] pace. I'm no proponent of "speed golf" but what you are describing is slow play.
[/quote]

It is not an urban legend. It was always clearly stated in the etiquette section of the Rules of Golf. WAS, that is. I found out that it was removed in the 2004 edition. So be it.

No, we were a 3 ball.
We were keeping pace with the groups in front of us.
We waited on the tee on #18. What do you suggest we do, let everyone behind us through?
IMO, 4:10 on a crowded Sun is not slow play.

[mshills]

My mistake, if you were keeping pace with the group in front of you, then 4:10 is not slow.

[SooperLooper]

On weekdays, I'll try to get out after work as much as possible as a single. Sometimes I play alone, and other times get put with random people - - which I generally enjoy. [size=4]Couple of days ago I get matched up with three other guys who were playing together, and they warmly accepted me into their group on the first tee. We tee off at 4:30pm, which is enough time to get 18 in if everything moves along. We all have push-carts.[/size]

[size=4]As the "guest" in the group they invite me to hit first which I immediately do, with a weak fade into the right rough. Each of them goes through their pre-shot routine and proceed to hit the ball in the neighborhood of 100 yards; two in the fairway, one left. Fine, I think, they're not great golfers but they're nice and we're off. I start moving quickly up to my ball (225 yards from tee), and am standing off to the right side of it well out of anyone's line-of-sight (as a former caddie I am confident I am standing in a fine position).[/size]

[size=4]Here's where the observations start. First thing is, I get to my ball before any of them get to theirs. As I watch, I see them traveling in a V-formation with the leader first going to his ball, while the other two watch. Then they go to the next ball in this same goose-like formation, and so on until they reach my ball. Which is where I overhear one of them stating how rude and distracting I was by going so far ahead of the group.[/size]

[size=4]We finally get to the green, and all of them go up an mark their balls, plumb-bob their lines, and slowly but steadily we circle in on the hole until everyone has putted out. By this point a full hole has opened up between us and the group that went off right before us. [/size]

[size=4]As we are walking off the green one of the guys says (in all seriousness, I believe) "While we're young". And yet, a[/size][size=4]ll three of them left their carts well out of position for the next hole, so back they all trudged and then walked around the green the long way to where I was already waiting.[/size]


So here's the thing: They all believed they were playing fast. That they were hustling from shot-to-shot. And in some sense they were right. Their intent was good, and they did not dawdle between shots. But they had no idea of how to play ready golf - - in essence they were almost always out of position for ready golf.

Bottom line: The USGA message seems to be getting through. But I don't think the new-to-average golfer has any idea how to play efficient golf, even when they want to keep pace. Should I have said anything while I was playing with them? Like where to position their carts? Or how to walk independently and safely ahead to your own ball? How can they learn how to play efficient golf? I kept quiet the whole round and just observed, hence these observations. . .

[fore]

If you can find a tactful way to teach them how to keep up with the group ahead then by all means do.

I think it's our job to inform folks as much as the USGA's job to raise awareness of the issue.

[SooperLooper]

[quote name='fore' timestamp='1374354209' post='7500486']
If you can find a tactful way to teach them how to keep up with the group ahead then by all means do.

I think it's our job to inform folks as much as the USGA's job to raise awareness of the issue.
[/quote]

I might have said something, but that one guy already commented that I was out of position by going up to my ball. Since I was already an outsider in their group I just played a very quiet and slow round, and painfully watched. The ranger came buy a few times and watched our group and never said a thing, even when we got a couple of holes behind.

[Kaysquare]

I've observed that most slow players do not believe they are slow, even when told so.

[TML]

as sooper has so eloquently stated, it's not the course, it's the golfers actions that are 95% to blame for slow play. What Sooper describes is what I see every day on the course.

[KCCO]

It's kinda old news now, but seemed as if they are preaching to the quire. Most people watching gc know pace of play respect....but I did find "knucklehead" to be beyond annoying.

[Aimee]

Round on Saturday that had 3 of us walking, one riding. Would have been fine pace of play except one guy literally froze over his ball before he swung for 20-30 seconds on every shot. It may not sound like a lot, but the net result was that we were about a half a hole behind. Not horrible, but imagine that you had more than one person doing that. It was pretty bizarre to watch.

[The Pearl]

[quote name='Kaysquare' timestamp='1374421488' post='7505138']
I've observed that most slow players do not believe they are slow, even when told so.
[/quote]

Spot on. It is the illusion of superiority. It is much like the common studies done about driving. 90% of drivers believe they are above average. Same with golfers. Most think they play fast. Humans are not self aware and I am sure golfers rank right up there with the most self delusional of the lot.

[TML]

if you can play a rd of golf in under 3 hrs you are fast. If you think playing in 4 hrs is fast, you are slow.