Golf Flight Laws Help...

[upanddown]

Hi, question on golf flight laws.. assuming a player comes into impact with a very open face. If I understand correctly they would have two ways to hit the ball reasonably straight.. 1) come into the ball on an extreme inside out path, which would cause a draw assuming the face is less open than the path or 2) swing out to in, assuming the face is less open than the path, which would cause a fade back to the center.

 

Is this correct? What are considered "ideal" numbers in terms of face angle, path and angle of approach? Thanks...

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376415540' post='7668796']
Hi, question on golf flight laws.. assuming a player comes into impact with a very open face. If I understand correctly they would have two ways to hit the ball reasonably straight.. 1) come into the ball on an extreme inside out path, which would cause a draw assuming the face is less open than the path or 2) swing out to in, assuming the face is less open than the path, which would cause a fade back to the center.

Is this correct? What are considered "ideal" numbers in terms of face angle, path and angle of approach? Thanks...
[/quote]

The only way you can hit the ball straight is to have a path and face square to each other. The closer the relationship between the two the straighter the ball flight becomes. In terms of 'ideals' there really aren't any....your numbers are a result of your swing style, sequence, fundamentals, ect. I like to see players try to keep the path and face numbers within +/- 3* either direction. If you can maintain that kind of relationship and hit the ball squarely, shots won't get away from you.

[BenSnead]

I'm guessing you mean 'straight' in the 'on target' sense. The previous handled straight in the no curve sense.

If the face is 5* open to the TARGET LINE you could theoretically hook it back on target with something likie a 7* inside out path.

I don't think that makes sense from golf swing point of view, though. If you're leaving the face open it's most likely to the PATH LINE.
Then you would need to swing well outside in(left) to get it to slice back on target.

[upanddown]

[quote name='BenSnead' timestamp='1376417703' post='7669140']
I'm guessing you mean 'straight' in the 'on target' sense. The previous handled straight in the no curve sense.

[/quote]

Sorry.. yes, I meant on target not a straight ball flight. TM Performance lab reported I have a 5-7 degree in to out path. I'm wondering if I swing in to out so much to counter my face being open.

[BenSnead]

[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376418249' post='7669210']
[quote name='BenSnead' timestamp='1376417703' post='7669140']
I'm guessing you mean 'straight' in the 'on target' sense. The previous handled straight in the no curve sense.

[/quote]

Sorry.. yes, I meant on target not a straight ball flight. TM Performance lab reported I have a 5-7 degree in to out path. I'm wondering if I swing in to out so much to counter my face being open.
[/quote]

More likely the other way around. In to out is going to naturally give you a face open to the TARGET LINE unless you do a lot to close it to the PATH LINE.

If you set the club open to the TARGET LINE at address that would tend to get you swinging back inside.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376418249' post='7669210']
[quote name='BenSnead' timestamp='1376417703' post='7669140']
I'm guessing you mean 'straight' in the 'on target' sense. The previous handled straight in the no curve sense.

[/quote]

Sorry.. yes, I meant on target not a straight ball flight. TM Performance lab reported I have a 5-7 degree in to out path. I'm wondering if I swing in to out so much to counter my face being open.
[/quote] straighter right arm on the takeaway will help on both fronts

[upanddown]

This is all making sense to me now because my basic shot is a push.. I try to hit a push draw but sometimes get a push slice... then I might come over the top with my right shoulder to compensate.

[larrybud]

Trick question! ;-)

Trackman 10 fundamentals
http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter7.pdf

3 ways to hit a straight shot:
[size=3]
There are 3 ways to strike the ball such that it travels in a straight line to the target; however, a shot with a zero degree club path, zero degree face angle, and center im-[/size][size=3]
pact location is definitively the most effective.[/size]
[size=3]
a) The three ways to achieve an on-target straight shot are:[/size][size=3]
1. Zero club path, zero face angle, center impact[/size][size=3]
2. Inside-out club path, closed face angle, heel impact[/size][size=3]
3. Outside-in club path, open face angle, toe impact[/size][size=3]
b) In shot types 2 and 3, the player must exactly counterbal ance club path and face angle to make launch direction zero (see fundamental #5), while simultaneously hitting it in the exact right part of the heel/toe, to counterbalance the spin axis tilt to level. This is tough to do intentionally.[/size][size=3]
c) Type 1 – zero club path, zero face angle, center impact – generates the most ball speed (smash factor) and carry, thus is the most efficient.[/size]

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376423922' post='7669916']
This is all making sense to me now because my basic shot is a push.. I try to hit a push draw but sometimes get a push slice... then I might come over the top with my right shoulder to compensate.
[/quote]
Chicken or the egg kind of thing.....change your swing to get a more neutral path or adjust the face to get a better start line and play your natural move. If you do have a consistently 5-7* path you're shot shape would have to be a push-draw to be functional. The slice part of your push could come from not getting the face closed to your path or catching the heel( very real possibility). Spray some dr. scholls on your club face to see where impact is happening.

[BenSnead]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1376434678' post='7670950']
[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376423922' post='7669916']
This is all making sense to me now because my basic shot is a push.. I try to hit a push draw but sometimes get a push slice... then I might come over the top with my right shoulder to compensate.
[/quote]
Chicken or the egg kind of thing.....change your swing to get a more neutral path or adjust the face to get a better start line and play your natural move. If you do have a consistently 5-7* path you're shot shape would have to be a push-draw to be functional. The slice part of your push could come from not getting the face closed to your path or catching the heel( very real possibility). Spray some dr. scholls on your club face to see where impact is happening.
[/quote]

How big a draw would 6* inside out be?

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='BenSnead' timestamp='1376436318' post='7671108']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1376434678' post='7670950']
[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376423922' post='7669916']
This is all making sense to me now because my basic shot is a push.. I try to hit a push draw but sometimes get a push slice... then I might come over the top with my right shoulder to compensate.
[/quote]
Chicken or the egg kind of thing.....change your swing to get a more neutral path or adjust the face to get a better start line and play your natural move. If you do have a consistently 5-7* path you're shot shape would have to be a push-draw to be functional. The slice part of your push could come from not getting the face closed to your path or catching the heel( very real possibility). Spray some dr. scholls on your club face to see where impact is happening.
[/quote]

How big a draw would 6* inside out be?
[/quote] would depend on where the face is

[BenSnead]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1376437140' post='7671190']
[quote name='BenSnead' timestamp='1376436318' post='7671108']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1376434678' post='7670950']
[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376423922' post='7669916']
This is all making sense to me now because my basic shot is a push.. I try to hit a push draw but sometimes get a push slice... then I might come over the top with my right shoulder to compensate.
[/quote]
Chicken or the egg kind of thing.....change your swing to get a more neutral path or adjust the face to get a better start line and play your natural move. If you do have a consistently 5-7* path you're shot shape would have to be a push-draw to be functional. The slice part of your push could come from not getting the face closed to your path or catching the heel( very real possibility). Spray some dr. scholls on your club face to see where impact is happening.
[/quote]

How big a draw would 6* inside out be?
[/quote] would depend on where the face is
[/quote]

Well there'd only be one face angle that brought the ball back to the center of the fairway, right?

I don't know if the curve is linear with distance though.
If certain angles produce a 10 yard hook at 150 yards would the same angles produce a 20 yard hook at 300 yards?


I'm thinking the curve on a 250 yard drive 6* inside out with the face angle to bring it back to center would be pretty big, like 15 yards or more.

The point ultimately being that 6* might be more than we'd want to play for and need to be reduced.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

3-4* range would start the ball right of target and draw it back. Easy way to understand 'how much' is that for every 10* of axis tilt the ball misses the target by 7%. What exactly creates 10* of axis tilt is mathematically above my head, but it's much easier to create 10 or more degrees of axis tilt with a driver because the loft is so little that it tilts the D-Plane more than say a 9-iron with the exact same face and path numbers.

[upanddown]

What would a typical pro who plays a soft draw numbers look like (or is there no "typical")?

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376450188' post='7672748']
What would a typical pro who plays a soft draw numbers look like (or is there no "typical")?
[/quote] there really is no typical but a baby draw translates to something like a +4/+2 path face

[upanddown]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1376452120' post='7672956']
[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376450188' post='7672748']
What would a typical pro who plays a soft draw numbers look like (or is there no "typical")?
[/quote] there really is no typical but a baby draw translates to something like a +4/+2 path face
[/quote]

Okay.. here is a good drive from my session at TM..

SS - 100.1
Path - 6.1
Face - 5.9
Launch Angle - 15.4
Backspin - 1434
Distance - 243

It doesn't tell me what the drive did I assume its a push right. If my path was say... 1.. I assume it would be a big push slice, correct?

[Golfrnut]

If we are talking center face contact, yes, a straight push.

And yes, a +1 would be inside in the face angle(reference to target line) and produce a push slice.

[BenSnead]

[quote name='Golfrnut' timestamp='1376481176' post='7673934']
If we are talking center face contact, yes, a straight push.

And yes, a +1 would be inside in the face angle(reference to target line) and produce a push slice.
[/quote]

I'm trying to clarify for myself not nitpick but this would be a very small(.2*) 'draw' geometry, correct?

[Golfrnut]

Technically yes. But it isn't going to be noticeable, and you also have to remember that the monitor has an error margine in there too so they could also be 1:1.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376479124' post='7673840']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1376452120' post='7672956']
[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376450188' post='7672748']
What would a typical pro who plays a soft draw numbers look like (or is there no "typical")?
[/quote] there really is no typical but a baby draw translates to something like a +4/+2 path face
[/quote]

Okay.. here is a good drive from my session at TM..

SS - 100.1
Path - 6.1
Face - 5.9
Launch Angle - 15.4
Backspin - 1434
Distance - 243

It doesn't tell me what the drive did I assume its a push right. If my path was say... 1.. I assume it would be a big push slice, correct?
[/quote] not necessarily... Those impact alignments could and often do result in a push fade pattern as well, because some degree of gear effect happens more than center face D-Plane models

[upanddown]

This is fascinating info.. I really believe now I swing so inside out to counter the open face.... thanks Putterilled...

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='upanddown' timestamp='1376418249' post='7669210']
[quote name='BenSnead' timestamp='1376417703' post='7669140']
I'm guessing you mean 'straight' in the 'on target' sense. The previous handled straight in the no curve sense.

[/quote]

Sorry.. yes, I meant on target not a straight ball flight. TM Performance lab reported I have a 5-7 degree in to out path. I'm wondering if I swing in to out so much to counter my face being open.
[/quote]

I'm curious if your stance was actually square to the target line, or if they even checked. Many times, club path problems are the result of mis-alignment of your stance. Sometimes the player can't visually tell he/she is mis-aligned. It can cause quite a struggle.

BT

[The Big Pinch]

So being right handed is it safe to say the most consistent/repeatable ball flight would be some type of draw?

[BenSnead]

[quote name='The Big Pinch' timestamp='1376583865' post='7681878']
So being right handed is it safe to say the most consistent/repeatable ball flight would be some type of draw?
[/quote]

Not at all safe.
many people would say the fade is more repeatable for good players

Hogan, Trevino, Nicklaus. Maybe 3 best ball strikers ever. All notorious faders.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

'repeatable' is tricky...your build, athleticism, flexibility, all these things affect your swing sequence and ultimately shape what kind of path and face numbers you can consistently create. The best players strive for a one-sided miss and try to play their go to shot whether fade or draw or straight.