C- for Meg Mallon, Gary Williams. Really?

[Redman]

[quote name='Frankie Lob Wedge' timestamp='1376924563' post='7704910']
[quote name='Willie Malay' timestamp='1376920354' post='7704404']
There's only so much a Team leader can do. The players have to play. I wouldn't say the American girls played that badly. I'd say the Euros just played that well. I'd give the following:
-Euro coach: A
-American coach: A
-Euro players: A
-American players: B

I don't believe in A+ designations. A is superior or above average in itself.

The Euro players just played well. That's it. That is all you can say. Congrats to them for performing.
[/quote]

Did you even watch? Disgraceful.

American Coach D
American Team C-
American Team Attitude D
American Fans D
Officiating D-

European Team Attitude and Sportswomanship A+
Charley Hull A+
Hedwall A+
[/quote]

The above is the everyone did great just for trying so you all get participation trophies thinking. The American team stunk from top to bottom for the most part. As already stated, partners that actually played well and won weren't played again. Also, I think the Euros finally had enough of seeing all the walking after putts, fist pumping fifty times, screaming, yelling, etc and came out to whoop some a$$. If I had to see Kerr walk one more putt out of the hole or see Lewis pout like a baby I probably would have began to pull for Europe. Hopefully this put our girls in their place and next time they will show up to play golf instead of show their behinds.

[Redman]

[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1376926066' post='7705162']
[quote name='Frankensteins Monster' timestamp='1376925440' post='7705062']
[quote name='SheriffBooth' timestamp='1376921616' post='7704568']
I think a lot of this obliteration had to do with poor leadership, curious matchmaking on the first two days, and a course setup that did not play to our team's strengths. For starters, the greens were too fast for our generally shaky putting squad. Teams that played well together were not repaired (Wie/Kerr & Lang/Lincicome off the top of my head). And our girls had an unfounded expectation of victory and then couldn't recover when they got proverbally punched in the mouth. Once their confidence was shaken they couldn't pull themselves together.

Much of that falls on Mallon's shoulders so I'd say C- is generous.
[/quote]

Agree.
[/quote]

The more I think about the course setup the more frustrated I get. We had a team that makes lots and lots of birdies in regular LPGA play. 7 of our 12 players are in the Top 20 in birdies made this year. So they set the course up to defend against birdies? Just a real head scratcher.

Someone in the discussion thread mentioned this being unnecessarily like a US Open setup. I agree 100%.
[/quote]

Seemed to me it was set up to make a lot of birdies. Europe had no problem. Those greens, while very undulated, had pins set to where the ball would funnel right to them if hit within 20-30 feet. Europe did that time and time again and we did not. When we actually did, the ball usually didn't even touch the hole as it rolled 5-6 feet by.

[esketores]

The past is the past. And one cannot change the past. (If so there'd have been a couple different girlfriends.)
What can be done to change the future?
American women's college golf... any up and comers? Late bloomers?
In terms of woman's golf in the USA... soccer, basketball, softball, volleyball basically eats (in this neck of the woods) all the athletic talent that golf needs to compete on the world stage.

[Super Tuna]

[quote name='tbowles411' timestamp='1376946887' post='7707536']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1376934357' post='7706238']
[quote name='CryMeARiver' timestamp='1376933769' post='7706158']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1376930975' post='7705766']
Wasn't the course supposed to be a benefit to the US team because they were much longer off the tee. That's what all the commentary before the matches started was saying. It's why the US was a prohibitive favourite. Now all of a sudden it was a detriment?
[/quote]

Unfortunately the long hitters like Thompson and Wie can't putt, and the ones who can have to hit woods into par 4's.
[/quote]

It's scary how bad Wie and especially Thompson are on the greens. Creamer is in a really bad place because she is not long AND can't putt.
[/quote]
She's never been long, but USED to be able to putt. She's searching right now.
[/quote]

You stole this ability from her when she jilted you yeah?

Tell the truth now tbowles.

[faux_maestro]

[quote name='Frankie Lob Wedge' timestamp='1376930673' post='7705716']
[quote name='faux_maestro' timestamp='1376928112' post='7705410']
[quote name='Frankie Lob Wedge' timestamp='1376926476' post='7705214']
Ian Poulter got it right again. [b]He told Charley Hull to be "respectful but ruthless."[/b] Meg Mallon said "we got our butts kicked." Why does this statement sound so undignified for golf. The American approach to golf with hooligan fans and a captain like this is getting so low class. They sound like and act like gutter rats. Really sickening. The PGA and LPGA have no clue. They want hip hop golf.

[url="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/womens-life/10246834/Solheim-Cup-2013-Why-womens-golf-so-desperately-needs-teenage-prodigy-Charley-Hull.html"]http://www.telegraph...arley-Hull.html[/url]

They need to emulate Charley and not WWF/WWE smackdown.
[/quote]

You are delusional.
[/quote]

LOL! Spoken by a guy who's hero was MIC/intel and his dad developed mustard & nerve gas.

[url="http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr93.html"]http://www.davesweb....m/nwsltr93.html[/url]

Sadly - Frank could not write lyrics to save his life.
[/quote]

Sorry, he's not my hero. I'm an orchestra conductor and I thought that pic of Zappa was funny (along with my name "faux maestro").

Anyway,
[quote]Meg Mallon said "we got our butts kicked." Why does this statement sound so undignified for golf. The American approach to golf with hooligan fans and a captain like this is getting so low class. They sound like and act like gutter rats. Really sickening. The PGA and LPGA have no clue. They want hip hop golf.[/quote]

This is crazy talk. You need to go back to telling those darn neighborhood kids to get off your lawn.

[Bad9]

[quote name='tbowles411' timestamp='1376946887' post='7707536']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1376934357' post='7706238']
[quote name='CryMeARiver' timestamp='1376933769' post='7706158']
[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1376930975' post='7705766']
Wasn't the course supposed to be a benefit to the US team because they were much longer off the tee. That's what all the commentary before the matches started was saying. It's why the US was a prohibitive favourite. Now all of a sudden it was a detriment?
[/quote]

Unfortunately the long hitters like Thompson and Wie can't putt, and the ones who can have to hit woods into par 4's.
[/quote]

It's scary how bad Wie and especially Thompson are on the greens. Creamer is in a really bad place because she is not long AND can't putt.
[/quote]
She's never been long, but USED to be able to putt. She's searching right now.
[/quote]

I thought PC looked like a spoiled brat through Fri and Sat. I thought she handled getting thumped by a 17yr old very rspectfully and gracefully. I think she earned some fans back on Sunday.

[Tinuke]

Bottom line.........Europe came to play. US came to be on TV. Biggest surprise, Wie may have grown up. I think she is ready to be a factor instead of a sideshow.

[Bad9]

[quote name='Tinuke' timestamp='1376956834' post='7708576']
Bottom line.........Europe came to play. US came to be on TV. Biggest surprise, Wie may have grown up. I think she is ready to be a factor instead of a sideshow.
[/quote]

Thats what everyone said after the last two SC. I expect her LPGA career to be the same as this year

[MtlJeff]

the captain in team golf is one of the most impotent positions in all of sports. If your team plays well you are great and a genius, if they play poorly you should have seen 500 different things coming and your leadership cost them the event. A Western Lowland Gorilla could be the captain of either side and they could win. I just refuse to believe that golfers at the highest level, an individual sport, need a captain to wipe their bottoms and tell them to try hard.

And course setup? They are the top non-asian women in the world (making them maybe 500-600th overall, but still), they all can make birdies

[Redman]

[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1376961201' post='7709080']
the captain in team golf is one of the most impotent positions in all of sports. If your team plays well you are great and a genius, if they play poorly you should have seen 500 different things coming and your leadership cost them the event. A Western Lowland Gorilla could be the captain of either side and they could win. I just refuse to believe that golfers at the highest level, an individual sport, need a captain to wipe their bottoms and tell them to try hard.

And course setup? They are the top non-asian women in the world (making them maybe 500-600th overall, but still), they all can make birdies
[/quote]
I agree with most you say here. The least the captain can do is put back out the pairs that actually won or played really well together. I see both RC and SC captains switching teams up way too much. Or sitting them for no reason. I thought Love sitting Bradley and Mickelson was a terrible idea because of the no one will play all five matches plan. Mallon appeared to have the same plan. Hopefully future captains will see it's a terrible idea.
Also agree the course set up is a weak excuse. Those pins were very accessible with good shots and even just decent shots at times. If bad shots were hit and they got short-sided then they paid the price.

[scores]

The European women could get it in play keep it in play and make the putts -- I did not like the whining about one hole one shot.

They had there chances and should let there clubs do the talking --

[gmangolf]

The team seemed unprepared, unfocused, and got flat out whooped. THAT is the definition of poor leadership. On the other hand the euros were prepped, focused and ready to dominate.

A 'C-' is generous. I'd give her a D and kindly suggest she never be the captain again.

To me it seemed like every euro player showed up with a 'I'm gonna kick you @$$ attitude. That is good leadership.

[canadianglen]

The Europeans changed their selection formula 2 or 3 SC's ago. And now look. The Americans need to change their formula as well. 8 spots on points is too much.

[Awsi Dooger]

[quote name='canadianglen' timestamp='1376971737' post='7710304']
The Europeans changed their selection formula 2 or 3 SC's ago. And now look. The Americans need to change their formula as well. 8 spots on points is too much [/quote]

The situations aren't remotely comparable. Europe had to scramble its system because too many top players were exclusive to the LPGA. You need multiple criteria and many captain's picks to rescue that scenario.

The American system is now perfect, IMO. Prior to this year there was danger of a shaky player racking up points in a non-Solheim year and hanging on to remain within the top 10, as Christina Kim did in 2011. That was rectified this time with the Rolex criteria. It's easy for fans and players to follow and provides checks and balances. Jennifer Johnson, for example, had a weak argument when she was inside the Rolex automatic qualifying spot until missing the cut in the final event as Morgan Pressel surged past her.

If 8 automatic spots are too many, that means the captain would hold nearly as much weight as all the tournaments combined for two years. Do you really want 7 qualifiers and 5 picks? That's an insult to the process.

Besides, the American team would not have varied this year no matter the selection process. These are the 12 players we would have had. At most there might have been one change but I'm not comfortable going that far. Players like the two Brittanys may have struggled this year but without much depth and with Meg seeking experience there was no one to replace them. If Meg picked Michelle and Gerina above Jennifer she also would have picked Lincicome and Lang above Jennifer.

The USA needs someone like Danielle Kang to take the next step. She would have been on the team if 2013 scoring average alone were the criteria. Likewise Jennifer. IMO, players like that who have had major amateur success are better bets than late bloomers like Gerina. I really like Gerina but there's a lower ceiling there, IMO. It's too soon to tell if players like Brooke Pancake or Austin Ernst or Lisa McCloskey or perhaps Jaye Marie Green will be ready by 2015. Europe not only has Charley Hull already but Stephanie Meadow likely will be on their team soon.

Overall it's simply too much overreaction. Americans lost tight matches, often surrendering late leads. Any baseball math-based analyst will tell you that a team that wins consistently by more than 1 run is more formidable than a team that sneaks by. The same holds for margin of victory in the NFL or NBA. All my formulas place great weight on margin. That's why the BCS formula has been so flawed, once margin of victory was removed from the process in 2001, for fear of coaches running up the score. Some of the computers involved pulled out of the process because they refused to surrender to a ridiculous process that ignored margin of victory or defeat.

I don't know what grade to give Meg but I can comfortably assert that any process that weighted this Solheim Cup, like trip handicapping in horse racing, would not allow any type of disparity equating to 18-10. All the logical adjustments would be downward. As I mentioned, if the two teams teed it up again on Friday the USA would still be favored, albeit not close to their -300 perch of last week.

[canadianglen]

why everything has to come down to gambling algorithms to you is beyond me. I gather you disagree. that is much shorter.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='canadianglen' timestamp='1376978300' post='7710742']
why everything has to come down to gambling algorithms to you is beyond me. I gather you disagree. that is much shorter.
[/quote]

Translation "I just got owned"

[jjd975]

Way to many missed putts for US. Thompson, Wie, Pillar and Lewis off top my head missed a ton. Dont remember Pressel making much either. Lewis and Paula stunk it up IMO.

The days if 230 yards drives getting it done are fading. Women are hitting ut much further niw

[faux_maestro]

[quote name='Awsi Dooger' timestamp='1376977518' post='7710696']
[quote name='canadianglen' timestamp='1376971737' post='7710304']
The Europeans changed their selection formula 2 or 3 SC's ago. And now look. The Americans need to change their formula as well. 8 spots on points is too much [/quote]

The situations aren't remotely comparable. Europe had to scramble its system because too many top players were exclusive to the LPGA. You need multiple criteria and many captain's picks to rescue that scenario.

The American system is now perfect, IMO. Prior to this year there was danger of a shaky player racking up points in a non-Solheim year and hanging on to remain within the top 10, as Christina Kim did in 2011. That was rectified this time with the Rolex criteria. It's easy for fans and players to follow and provides checks and balances. Jennifer Johnson, for example, had a weak argument when she was inside the Rolex automatic qualifying spot until missing the cut in the final event as Morgan Pressel surged past her.

If 8 automatic spots are too many, that means the captain would hold nearly as much weight as all the tournaments combined for two years. Do you really want 7 qualifiers and 5 picks? That's an insult to the process.

Besides, the American team would not have varied this year no matter the selection process. These are the 12 players we would have had. At most there might have been one change but I'm not comfortable going that far. Players like the two Brittanys may have struggled this year but without much depth and with Meg seeking experience there was no one to replace them. If Meg picked Michelle and Gerina above Jennifer she also would have picked Lincicome and Lang above Jennifer.

The USA needs someone like Danielle Kang to take the next step. She would have been on the team if 2013 scoring average alone were the criteria. Likewise Jennifer. IMO, players like that who have had major amateur success are better bets than late bloomers like Gerina. I really like Gerina but there's a lower ceiling there, IMO. It's too soon to tell if players like Brooke Pancake or Austin Ernst or Lisa McCloskey or perhaps Jaye Marie Green will be ready by 2015. Europe not only has Charley Hull already but Stephanie Meadow likely will be on their team soon.

Overall it's simply too much overreaction. Americans lost tight matches, often surrendering late leads. Any baseball math-based analyst will tell you that a team that wins consistently by more than 1 run is more formidable than a team that sneaks by. The same holds for margin of victory in the NFL or NBA. All my formulas place great weight on margin. That's why the BCS formula has been so flawed, once margin of victory was removed from the process in 2001, for fear of coaches running up the score. Some of the computers involved pulled out of the process because they refused to surrender to a ridiculous process that ignored margin of victory or defeat.

I don't know what grade to give Meg but I can comfortably assert that any process that weighted this Solheim Cup, like trip handicapping in horse racing, would not allow any type of disparity equating to 18-10. All the logical adjustments would be downward. As I mentioned, if the two teams teed it up again on Friday the USA would still be favored, albeit not close to their -300 perch of last week.
[/quote]

You make good points. The margin of victory idea works until you get a team like 2002 Ohio State for example.

I've had a theory that runs contrary to what many people think of the golf team competitions. I think that the American teams actually want it too much. They get tight because they want to win so badly, some of the celebrations do seem forced and go against how they normally behave. Gets them out of their comfort zone, but they do it because they are supposed to be fired up and emotional for the chance to represent their country etc. I know I play my best when I'm burning on the inside but no one else notices other than the occasional muted fist pump.

[fore]

[quote name='Bad9' timestamp='1376930975' post='7705766']
Wasn't the course supposed to be a benefit to the US team because they were much longer off the tee. That's what all the commentary before the matches started was saying. It's why the US was a prohibitive favourite. Now all of a sudden it was a detriment?
[/quote]

The course set up essentially made everyone a long hitter. For the most part there was no advantage for long hitters.

Knowing how to run the ball on to the greens and in some cases bounce on from the side of the green was advantageous.

American golf is typically characterized flying high shots into the green.

[Big Ben]

If we played the Euro team 3 more times we lose all of them, just better players in my opinion captain or not...BB

[QEight]

[quote name='Jamboy72' timestamp='1376930679' post='7705718']...course set up...[/quote]

It has been mentioned many times that captain has nothing to do with the setup in SC. Correct? Of course the greenskeeper probably is American though...

[quote name='fore' timestamp='1376991025' post='7710976']
American golf is typically characterized flying high shots into the green.
[/quote]

Sky Sports commentator Ewan Murray said on the start of last day that he hoped the pins would have been in easier places, but they were not. Many were still 3 yards from edges.

[canadianglen]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1376983401' post='7710878']
Translation "I just got owned"
[/quote]

Apparently, we speak different languages.

[Lefty94]

[quote name='canadianglen' timestamp='1376971737' post='7710304']
The Europeans changed their selection formula 2 or 3 SC's ago. And now look. The Americans need to change their formula as well. 8 spots on points is too much.
[/quote]

It's not 8 spots on points. It's 10 automatic and 2 captains picks. It should be 8 and 4 like the mens RC team. But yes the selection process needs to change. The 1st change should be that if your name Angela Stanford that you are automatically disqualified from playing whether or not you qualify on points. 3-10-4 in her career and hasn't won a match in at least the last 2 SC's. If I was captain and she qualified for the team she would play Sunday singles only. She's gonna lose anyway so it's better to only have her lose 1 match and give the rest of the team a chance to win the other matches.

[Bad9]

[quote name='faux_maestro' timestamp='1376985167' post='7710902'] I know I play my best when I'm burning on the inside but no one else notices other than the occasional muted fist pump.
[/quote]

I find I am the same way. I had a bitter experience being involved at the executive at my club and for 2yrs after I was gone no longer involved I was seething inside everytime I went to play. It was the best golf I have ever played. After having found peace at the club the last 2yrs I have not played nearly as well. My HI has gone up 2 points this year alone. I need to rediscover that inner anger.

[Redman]

[quote name='Lefty94' timestamp='1377000477' post='7711214']
[quote name='canadianglen' timestamp='1376971737' post='7710304']
The Europeans changed their selection formula 2 or 3 SC's ago. And now look. The Americans need to change their formula as well. 8 spots on points is too much.
[/quote]

It's not 8 spots on points. It's 10 automatic and 2 captains picks. It should be 8 and 4 like the mens RC team. But yes the selection process needs to change. The 1st change should be that if your name Angela Stanford that you are automatically disqualified from playing whether or not you qualify on points. 3-10-4 in her career and hasn't won a match in at least the last 2 SC's. If I was captain and she qualified for the team she would play Sunday singles only. She's gonna lose anyway so it's better to only have her lose 1 match and give the rest of the team a chance to win the other matches.
[/quote]

Absolutely, ha ha. This is one of the best solutions I've seen yet. I'd also suggest that if Kerr ever walks after another putt whether it goes in or not, she is immediately pulled off the course to not play again.

[cinnepa]

[quote name='Redman' timestamp='1376962293' post='7709230']
[quote name='MtlJeff' timestamp='1376961201' post='7709080']
the captain in team golf is one of the most impotent positions in all of sports. If your team plays well you are great and a genius, if they play poorly you should have seen 500 different things coming and your leadership cost them the event. A Western Lowland Gorilla could be the captain of either side and they could win. I just refuse to believe that golfers at the highest level, an individual sport, need a captain to wipe their bottoms and tell them to try hard.

And course setup? They are the top non-asian women in the world (making them maybe 500-600th overall, but still), they all can make birdies
[/quote]
I agree with most you say here. The least the captain can do is put back out the pairs that actually won or played really well together. I see both RC and SC captains switching teams up way too much. Or sitting them for no reason. I thought Love sitting Bradley and Mickelson was a terrible idea because of the no one will play all five matches plan. Mallon appeared to have the same plan. Hopefully future captains will see it's a terrible idea.
Also agree the course set up is a weak excuse. Those pins were very accessible with good shots and even just decent shots at times. If bad shots were hit and they got short-sided then they paid the price.
[/quote]

exactly, captains should have to think on their feet - see how the matches are going and adjust......sticking to a "plan" is not coaching at all.

[LuvToGolfGuy]

Why are we talking grades? Who cares?

You know why the American gals got crushed?

It's because they're not that good.

[MarkFromTheUK]

The captains in these team events are essentially glorified cheerleaders. Sure, they come up with the pairings, but after that the players are left to their own devices... and it's the players who should take responsibility for losing.

[bullie76]

I didn't watch it but anytime you get beat by a lopsided score, the players and coaches should get an F. The flip side of that is an A for the Euros.

[wobgon]

[quote name='LuvToGolfGuy' timestamp='1377008428' post='7711980']
Why are we talking grades? Who cares?

You know why the American gals got crushed?

It's because they're not that good.
[/quote]
How many times are you going to make that same statement on this forum....Getting a little old.....In case anyone doesn't know,LuvToGolfGuy thinks the American women are not that good..........