Why do we have adjustable drivers ?

[2zlinks]

As others have said I think is great for initial set up i.e. open face/ closed face, desired lie angle etc. After the initial set up I don't see much of a need unless you want to try a new shaft as others have stated. I find it somewhat funny that those that do not like the adjustability point to the fact that most don't change settings after they find one they like but fail to realize that any change from standard and the adjustability has proven a worthy option. To each their own.

[JRS]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378567667' post='7811629']


The loft of the head doesn't change on different settings, it does it by rotating the clubface which also changes the face angle in relation to target. I can rotate the club in my hands a degree, re-grip it and do the same exact thing as that "adjustable" Driver. If you crank it all the way up or down so the clubhead sits open or closed, then manually set the clubface back to square you have done nothing for the loft in any way/shape/form.

[url="http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf"]http://wishongolf.co...sel-drivers.pdf[/url]

Quoted from the pdf above
[quote]
[size=4]By far, the vast majority of golfers, even the majority of tour pros,[/size]
[size=4]set the driver down to rest on its sole when they address the ball to[/size]
[size=4]hit a tee shot, and leave the driver sitting on its sole when they start[/size]
[size=4]the swing to hit the shot. Doing that will result in these drivers set[/size][size=4]-[/size]
[size=4]ting up to the ball with the static specifications measured and stated[/size]
[size=4]in this report.[/quote][/size]
Mr. Wishon knows his stuff - Take a look at his Drivers - [url="http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/"]http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/[/url] any adjustable hosels in there?

[/quote]

sorry but you're wrong, the "loft" does change. unfortunately, there are several different definitions of loft floating around not everyone uses the same name for the same definition. static loft, actual loft, dynamic loft, spin loft and so on. when tom wishon says the loft of the head doesn't change he is of course correct, the head is a piece of metal with a fixed shape.

however, the golf ball doesn't care about this it only cares about the loft presented to it at impact. this can vary wildly from golfer to golfer so let's eliminate the golfer variable and assume a robot is swinging the club with a perfect 0 deg face angle and a 0 deg angle of attack. as you said, when you rotate the shaft to open the face the loft goes up but if you represent it square at impact (if intended) you're back to the original loft. but hang on doesn't the open setting LOWER the loft?

so, what does the open/lower setting do? it tilts the head away from the target on an axis that is perpendicular to the LIE ANGLE (important). the easiest way to get your head around it is to imaging a club with a 90 deg lie and another with a zero deg lie. if you tilt the 90 deg club head on the axis perpendicular to the lie you get a pure loft change with no face angle variation. and conversely, with the zero deg lie the face will tilt open and closed with no loft change. imagine a gate opening and closing. now our rear driver has a lie roughly in the middle of those 2 extremes.

back to the open/lower setting, rotate the head away from the target about an axis perpendicular to the lie angle. the face points more to the right and more towards the ground, or, opens and lowers in loft. but in our neutral robot swing we don't want it to fade so we rotate the shaft anti-clockwise until the face closes to square again. loft lowers AGAIN. now we push the button on the robot and you should agree that the loft presented to the ball is less than with the club in a neutral setting and the same robot swing.

in practice, adjustable clubs don't have a true neutral setting with the shaft perfectly in line with the hosel bore but it was just easier to explain this way.

[mikpga]

Fine tuning...

[bluedot]

[quote name='JRS' timestamp='1378625067' post='7814643']
[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378567667' post='7811629']
The loft of the head doesn't change on different settings, it does it by rotating the clubface which also changes the face angle in relation to target. I can rotate the club in my hands a degree, re-grip it and do the same exact thing as that "adjustable" Driver. If you crank it all the way up or down so the clubhead sits open or closed, then manually set the clubface back to square you have done nothing for the loft in any way/shape/form.

[url="http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf"]http://wishongolf.co...sel-drivers.pdf[/url]

Quoted from the pdf above
[quote]
[size=4]By far, the vast majority of golfers, even the majority of tour pros,[/size]
[size=4]set the driver down to rest on its sole when they address the ball to[/size]
[size=4]hit a tee shot, and leave the driver sitting on its sole when they start[/size]
[size=4]the swing to hit the shot. Doing that will result in these drivers set[/size][size=4]-[/size]
[size=4]ting up to the ball with the static specifications measured and stated[/size]
[size=4]in this report.[/quote][/size]
Mr. Wishon knows his stuff - Take a look at his Drivers - [url="http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/"]http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/[/url] any adjustable hosels in there?

[/quote]

sorry but you're wrong, the "loft" does change. unfortunately, there are several different definitions of loft floating around not everyone uses the same name for the same definition. static loft, actual loft, dynamic loft, spin loft and so on. when tom wishon says the loft of the head doesn't change he is of course correct, the head is a piece of metal with a fixed shape.

however, the golf ball doesn't care about this it only cares about the loft presented to it at impact. this can vary wildly from golfer to golfer so let's eliminate the golfer variable and assume a robot is swinging the club with a perfect 0 deg face angle and a 0 deg angle of attack. as you said, when you rotate the shaft to open the face the loft goes up but if you represent it square at impact (if intended) you're back to the original loft. but hang on doesn't the open setting LOWER the loft?

so, what does the open/lower setting do? it tilts the head away from the target on an axis that is perpendicular to the LIE ANGLE (important). the easiest way to get your head around it is to imaging a club with a 90 deg lie and another with a zero deg lie. if you tilt the 90 deg club head on the axis perpendicular to the lie you get a pure loft change with no face angle variation. and conversely, with the zero deg lie the face will tilt open and closed with no loft change. imagine a gate opening and closing. now our rear driver has a lie roughly in the middle of those 2 extremes.

back to the open/lower setting, rotate the head away from the target about an axis perpendicular to the lie angle. the face points more to the right and more towards the ground, or, opens and lowers in loft. but in our neutral robot swing we don't want it to fade so we rotate the shaft anti-clockwise until the face closes to square again. loft lowers AGAIN. now we push the button on the robot and you should agree that the loft presented to the ball is less than with the club in a neutral setting and the same robot swing.

in practice, adjustable clubs don't have a true neutral setting with the shaft perfectly in line with the hosel bore but it was just easier to explain this way.
[/quote]

Tom Wishon's point is that the way that the loft of a driver (or any other club, for that matter) has ALWAYS been measured is with the clubhead soled. That angle does NOT change based on where the shaft enters the clubhead or what the face angle is, period. The manufacturers are now claiming that they are making clubheads on which the loft can be changed, but are not explaining how they are measuring that. AND those drivers test out on standard loft-measuring machines at only one loft.

So again, what is changing is the face angle and the dynamic loft. That is NOT unimportant; golfers have always done that anyway; adjustable drivers make it easier and more uniform. But buying a driver because you think you can change lofts by several degrees as needed is a questionable proposition at best.

[cxx]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378645563' post='7815031']
[quote name='JRS' timestamp='1378625067' post='7814643']
[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378567667' post='7811629']
The loft of the head doesn't change on different settings, it does it by rotating the clubface which also changes the face angle in relation to target. I can rotate the club in my hands a degree, re-grip it and do the same exact thing as that "adjustable" Driver. If you crank it all the way up or down so the clubhead sits open or closed, then manually set the clubface back to square you have done nothing for the loft in any way/shape/form.

[url="http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf"]http://wishongolf.co...sel-drivers.pdf[/url]

Quoted from the pdf above
[quote]
[size=4]By far, the vast majority of golfers, even the majority of tour pros,[/size]
[size=4]set the driver down to rest on its sole when they address the ball to[/size]
[size=4]hit a tee shot, and leave the driver sitting on its sole when they start[/size]
[size=4]the swing to hit the shot. Doing that will result in these drivers set[/size][size=4]-[/size]
[size=4]ting up to the ball with the static specifications measured and stated[/size]
[size=4]in this report.[/quote][/size]
Mr. Wishon knows his stuff - Take a look at his Drivers - [url="http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/"]http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/[/url] any adjustable hosels in there?

[/quote]

sorry but you're wrong, the "loft" does change. unfortunately, there are several different definitions of loft floating around not everyone uses the same name for the same definition. static loft, actual loft, dynamic loft, spin loft and so on. when tom wishon says the loft of the head doesn't change he is of course correct, the head is a piece of metal with a fixed shape.

however, the golf ball doesn't care about this it only cares about the loft presented to it at impact. this can vary wildly from golfer to golfer so let's eliminate the golfer variable and assume a robot is swinging the club with a perfect 0 deg face angle and a 0 deg angle of attack. as you said, when you rotate the shaft to open the face the loft goes up but if you represent it square at impact (if intended) you're back to the original loft. but hang on doesn't the open setting LOWER the loft?

so, what does the open/lower setting do? it tilts the head away from the target on an axis that is perpendicular to the LIE ANGLE (important). the easiest way to get your head around it is to imaging a club with a 90 deg lie and another with a zero deg lie. if you tilt the 90 deg club head on the axis perpendicular to the lie you get a pure loft change with no face angle variation. and conversely, with the zero deg lie the face will tilt open and closed with no loft change. imagine a gate opening and closing. now our rear driver has a lie roughly in the middle of those 2 extremes.

back to the open/lower setting, rotate the head away from the target about an axis perpendicular to the lie angle. the face points more to the right and more towards the ground, or, opens and lowers in loft. but in our neutral robot swing we don't want it to fade so we rotate the shaft anti-clockwise until the face closes to square again. loft lowers AGAIN. now we push the button on the robot and you should agree that the loft presented to the ball is less than with the club in a neutral setting and the same robot swing.

in practice, adjustable clubs don't have a true neutral setting with the shaft perfectly in line with the hosel bore but it was just easier to explain this way.
[/quote]

Tom Wishon's point is that the way that the loft of a driver (or any other club, for that matter) has ALWAYS been measured is with the clubhead soled. That angle does NOT change based on where the shaft enters the clubhead or what the face angle is, period. The manufacturers are now claiming that they are making clubheads on which the loft can be changed, but are not explaining how they are measuring that. AND those drivers test out on standard loft-measuring machines at only one loft.

So again, what is changing is the face angle and the dynamic loft. That is NOT unimportant; golfers have always done that anyway; adjustable drivers make it easier and more uniform. But buying a driver because you think you can change lofts by several degrees as needed is a questionable proposition at best.
[/quote]

Not again... If you can change the loft of an iron you can change the loft of a driver. You just don't have to bend it when you have an adjustable hosel. All hope for you is lost if you let the way the club head lies on the ground determine how you put your hands on the grip.

[KILLEDBYASHANKEDWEDGE]

Shaft interchangeability for me.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1378647914' post='7815117']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378645563' post='7815031']
[quote name='JRS' timestamp='1378625067' post='7814643']
[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378567667' post='7811629']
The loft of the head doesn't change on different settings, it does it by rotating the clubface which also changes the face angle in relation to target. I can rotate the club in my hands a degree, re-grip it and do the same exact thing as that "adjustable" Driver. If you crank it all the way up or down so the clubhead sits open or closed, then manually set the clubface back to square you have done nothing for the loft in any way/shape/form.

[url="http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf"]http://wishongolf.co...sel-drivers.pdf[/url]

Quoted from the pdf above
[quote]
[size=4]By far, the vast majority of golfers, even the majority of tour pros,[/size]
[size=4]set the driver down to rest on its sole when they address the ball to[/size]
[size=4]hit a tee shot, and leave the driver sitting on its sole when they start[/size]
[size=4]the swing to hit the shot. Doing that will result in these drivers set[/size][size=4]-[/size]
[size=4]ting up to the ball with the static specifications measured and stated[/size]
[size=4]in this report.[/quote][/size]
Mr. Wishon knows his stuff - Take a look at his Drivers - [url="http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/"]http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/[/url] any adjustable hosels in there?

[/quote]

sorry but you're wrong, the "loft" does change. unfortunately, there are several different definitions of loft floating around not everyone uses the same name for the same definition. static loft, actual loft, dynamic loft, spin loft and so on. when tom wishon says the loft of the head doesn't change he is of course correct, the head is a piece of metal with a fixed shape.

however, the golf ball doesn't care about this it only cares about the loft presented to it at impact. this can vary wildly from golfer to golfer so let's eliminate the golfer variable and assume a robot is swinging the club with a perfect 0 deg face angle and a 0 deg angle of attack. as you said, when you rotate the shaft to open the face the loft goes up but if you represent it square at impact (if intended) you're back to the original loft. but hang on doesn't the open setting LOWER the loft?

so, what does the open/lower setting do? it tilts the head away from the target on an axis that is perpendicular to the LIE ANGLE (important). the easiest way to get your head around it is to imaging a club with a 90 deg lie and another with a zero deg lie. if you tilt the 90 deg club head on the axis perpendicular to the lie you get a pure loft change with no face angle variation. and conversely, with the zero deg lie the face will tilt open and closed with no loft change. imagine a gate opening and closing. now our rear driver has a lie roughly in the middle of those 2 extremes.

back to the open/lower setting, rotate the head away from the target about an axis perpendicular to the lie angle. the face points more to the right and more towards the ground, or, opens and lowers in loft. but in our neutral robot swing we don't want it to fade so we rotate the shaft anti-clockwise until the face closes to square again. loft lowers AGAIN. now we push the button on the robot and you should agree that the loft presented to the ball is less than with the club in a neutral setting and the same robot swing.

in practice, adjustable clubs don't have a true neutral setting with the shaft perfectly in line with the hosel bore but it was just easier to explain this way.
[/quote]

Tom Wishon's point is that the way that the loft of a driver (or any other club, for that matter) has ALWAYS been measured is with the clubhead soled. That angle does NOT change based on where the shaft enters the clubhead or what the face angle is, period. The manufacturers are now claiming that they are making clubheads on which the loft can be changed, but are not explaining how they are measuring that. AND those drivers test out on standard loft-measuring machines at only one loft.

So again, what is changing is the face angle and the dynamic loft. That is NOT unimportant; golfers have always done that anyway; adjustable drivers make it easier and more uniform. But buying a driver because you think you can change lofts by several degrees as needed is a questionable proposition at best.
[/quote]

Not again... If you can change the loft of an iron you can change the loft of a driver. You just don't have to bend it when you have an adjustable hosel. All hope for you is lost if you let the way the club head lies on the ground determine how you put your hands on the grip.
[/quote]

Isn't that a different kind of "bend?"

[Froth]

HOORAY I STARTED LONG POSTING ARGUMENT TIME! *Muahahahah*.

[mxtitleistgolfer]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378567667' post='7811629']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1378565377' post='7811483']
Change shafts.....check;
change swingweight easily.......check;
change loft easily..........check;

Any more questions?
[/quote]
Lol, The marketing has your brain.

Heat gun and epoxy - Shaft changed (If you want a different shaft, many times you have to buy a second adapter, Epoxy it to the shaft, and install it...)
Lead tape - Swingweight changed (Arguably easier, don't give me the "looks bad" line either. The ball doesn't care what the club looks like)
The loft of the head doesn't change on different settings, it does it by rotating the clubface which also changes the face angle in relation to target. I can rotate the club in my hands a degree, re-grip it and do the same exact thing as that "adjustable" Driver. If you crank it all the way up or down so the clubhead sits open or closed, then manually set the clubface back to square you have done nothing for the loft in any way/shape/form.

[url="http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf"]http://wishongolf.co...sel-drivers.pdf[/url]

Quoted from the pdf above
[quote]
[size=4]By far, the vast majority of golfers, even the majority of tour pros,[/size]
[size=4]set the driver down to rest on its sole when they address the ball to[/size]
[size=4]hit a tee shot, and leave the driver sitting on its sole when they start[/size]
[size=4]the swing to hit the shot. Doing that will result in these drivers set[/size][size=4]-[/size]
[size=4]ting up to the ball with the static specifications measured and stated[/size]
[size=4]in this report.[/quote][/size]
Mr. Wishon knows his stuff - Take a look at his Drivers - http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/ any adjustable hosels in there?

Plenty more questions if you'd like

One question is, if you have to epoxy a tip onto a shaft...then put that shaft into the club why not simply epoxy the shaft into the club? Laziness?
Another question would be how many people buy an Adjustable club and never adjust it?
Another one? Why not buy the loft you want the first time?
One more? Why not buy a used Driver head for $40-$60 off eBay and put a shaft that you're fit for into it? The ball doesn't know the club is old, or used...
Again? If adjustable hosels are so good, why don't irons have them?
More? Why does Tiger woods insist on having his own custom-made glued hosel Driver?
Finally...If adjustable lofts worked, why are those Adjustable clubs offered in different static lofts?

I believe OEM's secretly developed the adjustable tip technology and told everyone it was awesome to save money on Demo Carts with specially made heads that could be swapped out. Now they can cut more costs and use the same production Driver head for a demo head and make more money by selling this "cool new technology" for more money. When in reality, they are basically selling you a Screw-on demo head with a worse weight distribution because of the internal structure required to support the adjustable hosel "technology".
[/quote]

Thanks for reminding me. For a second there I forget that all those engineers at all the OEM's with masters degrees and Ph.D.'s don't know what the heck they are talking about. But of course their competitor, the "little guy" club manufacturer trying to push his own product without an engineering degree knows how it really works. He himself attempted the adjustable driver, but obviously wasn't able to perfect it enough to be successful at market.

The point of an adjustable golf club is not to cure your bad habits, but rather fine tune the club to fit your specific needs. With non-adjustable clubs this can take a dozen heads to find the one with the right weight, loft, and face angle. With an adjustable driver we can use one head and within a matter of minutes configure it the way the player needs it.

We can all love the classics, just like with cars, planes, or anything else. But to say the newer technology is all a scam and not helpful is simply ignorance of the proper use of that technology.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378567667' post='7811629']
[quote name='BirdieBob' timestamp='1378565377' post='7811483']
Change shafts.....check;
change swingweight easily.......check;
change loft easily..........check;

Any more questions?
[/quote]
Lol, The marketing has your brain.

Heat gun and epoxy - Shaft changed (If you want a different shaft, many times you have to buy a second adapter, Epoxy it to the shaft, and install it...)
Lead tape - Swingweight changed (Arguably easier, don't give me the "looks bad" line either. The ball doesn't care what the club looks like)
The loft of the head doesn't change on different settings, it does it by rotating the clubface which also changes the face angle in relation to target. I can rotate the club in my hands a degree, re-grip it and do the same exact thing as that "adjustable" Driver. If you crank it all the way up or down so the clubhead sits open or closed, then manually set the clubface back to square you have done nothing for the loft in any way/shape/form.

[url="http://wishongolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/adjustable-hosel-drivers.pdf"]http://wishongolf.co...sel-drivers.pdf[/url]

Quoted from the pdf above
[quote]
[size=4]By far, the vast majority of golfers, even the majority of tour pros,[/size]
[size=4]set the driver down to rest on its sole when they address the ball to[/size]
[size=4]hit a tee shot, and leave the driver sitting on its sole when they start[/size]
[size=4]the swing to hit the shot. Doing that will result in these drivers set[/size][size=4]-[/size]
[size=4]ting up to the ball with the static specifications measured and stated[/size]
[size=4]in this report.[/quote][/size]
Mr. Wishon knows his stuff - Take a look at his Drivers - [url="http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/"]http://wishongolf.com/designs/drivers/[/url] any adjustable hosels in there?

Plenty more questions if you'd like

One question is, if you have to epoxy a tip onto a shaft...then put that shaft into the club why not simply epoxy the shaft into the club? Laziness?
Another question would be how many people buy an Adjustable club and never adjust it?
Another one? Why not buy the loft you want the first time?
One more? Why not buy a used Driver head for $40-$60 off eBay and put a shaft that you're fit for into it? The ball doesn't know the club is old, or used...
Again? If adjustable hosels are so good, why don't irons have them?
More? Why does Tiger woods insist on having his own custom-made glued hosel Driver?
Finally...If adjustable lofts worked, why are those Adjustable clubs offered in different static lofts?

I believe OEM's secretly developed the adjustable tip technology and told everyone it was awesome to save money on Demo Carts with specially made heads that could be swapped out. Now they can cut more costs and use the same production Driver head for a demo head and make more money by selling this "cool new technology" for more money. When in reality, they are basically selling you a Screw-on demo head with a worse weight distribution because of the internal structure required to support the adjustable hosel "technology".
[/quote]

That's right. Changing the angle relationship between the shaft and the clubhead does nothing to the playing characteristics of the club. I don't know why everyone thinks it does. I mean, look at all those bending adjustments that are done to irons and wedges. They do nothing, right? Why would that process work any better with woods? Sure, all those clubmakers have bending machines, but they're just for marketing right? They don't really change the club, do they Froth? Naaaaa. Oh yeah, and that lead tape looks a LOT BETTER than a simple weight screw right? So easy to use. Just carry toxic metal around with you so that you can re-apply it just in case it comes off (which it will, with wood heads, almost every time). Yeah, leads great stuff. Only problem is it causes learning disabilities. Gotta really love those torches and heat guns too. LOADS easier than turning a screw, right Froth? I mean, NO ONE EVER accidentally ruins a shaft $300 with those things do they. NEVER see a post about that here! But those pesky screws are a HUGE PITAA!!

Anyone who wants to play golf well DOES NOT use the ground to align their clubhead prior to executing a shot. Tee boxes are not that perfect. Most that I have seen, even on high end courses, have irregularities everywhere. Yes, most golfers rest the club on the ground, but every single one that I have asked says that they ALWAYS align the clubface visually when setting up. They NEVER rely on the ground because, in their words, the ground is not reliable!

How about some answers...

[color=#0000ff]One question is, if you have to epoxy a tip onto a shaft...then put that shaft into the club why not simply epoxy the shaft into the club? Laziness?[/color]
[color=#ff0000]No, the same amount of time and effort goes into both processes. But afterwards, it's just a lot more efficient.[/color]

[color=#0000ff]Another question would be how many people buy an Adjustable club and never adjust it?[/color]
[color=#ff0000]Lots. But not as many people that buy glued clubs and then wish they could change it.[/color]

[color=#0000ff]Another one? Why not buy the loft you want the first time?[/color]
[color=#ff0000]I do..... ALL the lofts I want![/color]

[color=#0000ff]One more? Why not buy a used Driver head for $40-$60 off eBay and put a shaft that you're fit for into it? The ball doesn't know the club is old, or used...[/color]
[color=#ff0000]Again, I do. Only idiots pay top dollar for equipment that looses value faster than a Cadillac![/color]

[color=#0000ff]Again? If adjustable hosels are so good, why don't irons have them?[/color]
[color=#ff0000]They do, It's called BENDING. Every clubmaker does it and most teachers recommend it.[/color]

[color=#0000ff]More? Why does Tiger woods insist on having his own custom-made glued hosel Driver?[/color]
[color=#ff0000]Custom made? You DO know what that means, right? Adjusted to your specs. ADJUSTED!![/color]

[color=#0000ff]Finally...If adjustable lofts worked, why are those Adjustable clubs offered in different static lofts?[/color]
[color=#ff0000]Because the range of adjustment in some driver/FWs is not as large as is needed. Also, adjustment in excess of 3* becomes visible at address and tends to be distracting (to me, at least).[/color]

My last point.
I flew to Long Beach for a tournament once and found my driver (975 LF-E) and 3w (975F) broken when I arrived. Had to play irons only, drill out the old broken tips when I got back home and then search for f*ckin' ever to find a replacement shaft that I liked (because the ones I had were no longer available). That ALONE is reason enough for me to game woods with removable heads now. Hasn't happened again in 200+ flights since going this route.

IMHO, you can play what you want and I recommend everyone does. If you don't want an adjustable driver, fine. But don't criticize people because they do. I've play this gmae for over 40 years and i have had to adjust clubs to specifically fit me for the majority of that time. Adjustable woods make that process A HECK LOT EASIER and I welcome them.

BT

[Ajlepisto]

[quote][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]One question is, if you have to epoxy a tip onto a shaft...then put that shaft into the club why not simply epoxy the shaft into the club? Laziness?[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Another question would be how many people buy an Adjustable club and never adjust it?[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Another one? Why not buy the loft you want the first time?[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]One more? Why not buy a used Driver head for $40-$60 off [/background][/size][/color][url="http://www.ebay.com/"]eBay[/url][color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)] and put a shaft that you're fit for into it? The ball doesn't know the club is old, or used...[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Again? If adjustable hosels are so good, why don't irons have them?[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]More? Why does Tiger woods insist on having his own custom-made glued hosel Driver?[/background][/size][/color]
[color=#282828][size=3][background=rgb(247, 247, 247)]Finally...If adjustable lofts worked, why are those Adjustable clubs offered in different static lofts?[/quote][/background][/size][/color]

1. You can call it lazy, but I would say that it makes the fittings easier. Why wait for epoxy to dry when you swap the heads when you can just torque it on. Plus, how you have one or two heads to make instead of 4. Cheaper.

2. Lots of people don't adjust their clubs, which is part of the reason why people aren't fitted correctly. A lot of people incorrectly adjust their clubs because they don't know how changing the settings impacts the other settings. Which is why lots of people claim that they don't work. I've seen it countless times.

3. Most people don't know what loft they want or need "the first time." Most people play a driver that does not have enough loft.

4. You could buy an old head, but how do you know what shaft you "fit?" You go to a pro or a shop with adjustable drivers and shafts and swap them all out with those evil screw in heads. Or, you can buy a few shafts, have the tips put in them, and swap them out over the course of weeks to fit yourself. See your first question.

5. Irons don't need adjustable hosels because they can be bent. You can't bend woods easily, if at all, so they need the adjustability. Irons are still made out of metal.

6. Tiger doesn't like the bigger hosel, which usually comes with adjustable clubs.

7. Cobra and Nike offer one club to fill all of the settings. This question is invalid. Just look at the newer models coming out.

[Froth]

I was kinda hoping someone would give my questions a shot. Cudos to you good sir!

[Ajlepisto]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378679560' post='7816817']
I was kinda hoping someone would give my questions a shot. Cudos to you good sir!
[/quote]

They're valid questions, but I just think the benefits you get from an adjustable driver outweigh the negatives.

People always fight about how they work and the specifics of it, but the reality is, if you know how to adjust them, you can move someone's ball flight.

Also, being taller is difficult to find proper fitting clubs, especially in the woods, so now that I can adjust the lie angles on them, I can make the things fit me better than previous, when I'd buy the off the shelf stock one and the only way to make it flatter was to cut it shorter.

[Froth]

[quote name='Ajlepisto' timestamp='1378679825' post='7816837']
They're valid questions, but I just think the benefits you get from an adjustable driver outweigh the negatives.
[/quote]
The best adjustable I have hit is the Anser, They figured out how to make an adjustable hosel without affecting how it feels and it still looks good too, looks like a glued hosel at address. If they made a sub 400cc Anser, I'd buy one. It has no negatives, IMO.

[Ri_Redneck]

I settled on the Amp Cell Pro (have a 910 D3 that I like too) 440 ccs, but I wish it was a little smaller. Liked the size of my 975 LF-Es (9.5* & 8.5*) and 975Fs (16.5*, 13.5* & 12.5*), but finding shafts when things happened were more than I could bear. I still miss my GD Purple Ice 85 S that was in my 9.5*.

BT

[MadGolfer76]

So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?

[mxtitleistgolfer]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.

[Froth]

[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]
There should really be a little instruction manual explaining things to people that comes with the adjustable clubs.

[njlam]

Adjustable drivers are the fast food of golf equipment.

They make inventory management for retailers easier and puts less pressure on consumers to be fitted right the first time (because you can make adjustments afterwards if you were fit improperly initially).

Ironically, the consumers of these marketing-driven products are willing to pay more to make the jobs of the OEM and retailers easier. This is what people are paying for and it is marketing and capitalism at its best.

If you don't have an adjustable driver, you are un-American.

[Sean2]

I prefer a "glued" driver myself, but options are limited. When I went through my driver fitting what worked best was an adjustable driver. I have adjusted it for fun, but the only setting that works best is the one I was fitted for, and that's were it stays.

I don't need an adjustable driver.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

Doesn't that work both ways, though? Not being argumentative, just trying to learn. What Tom says makes sense to me - so is this a contextual argument?

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

Tom also believes that all golfers should let the turf set the club up for the. I disagree with this due to the answers I have recieved from over 100 golfers I have talked to since that thread (and my own experience). If you think about the process you use seting for a shot, I believe you will also disagree.

BT

[bluedot]

[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

But this has ALWAYS been the case, no? Golfers hood the club or open it at address, make all sorts of compensations during their swings, etc. We've all played with guys who hit 8* drivers as high as your wedge, and with guys that hit a 10.5* 10.5 feet off the ground.

What nobody claimed was that the loft of the driver wasn't 8* or 10.5* just because the golfer swinging it had a unique swing.

Now, in an adjustable driver, the face is more open or closed at address because of the shaft setting instead of the way the golfer sets up, and that changes the dynamic loft just as it always has. And indeed there are ball flight changes as a result. No problem, and I see the benefit of that adjustability. I do.

What is different is that the manufacturers now claim that the relationship between the sole of the driver and the ground has somehow changed and that the static loft is different. What they don't explain is how that happens.

Wishon points out in the report that ALL drivers have always been measured the same way in the same machine, and using that same standard way of measuring there is NO change to soled, static loft in the new drivers. The manufacturers say that there is in their measurements, but don't reveal how they are making those measurements.

Take your pick, and believe what you wish.

[mxtitleistgolfer]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378688326' post='7817391']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

But this has ALWAYS been the case, no? Golfers hood the club or open it at address, make all sorts of compensations during their swings, etc. We've all played with guys who hit 8* drivers as high as your wedge, and with guys that hit a 10.5* 10.5 feet off the ground.

What nobody claimed was that the loft of the driver wasn't 8* or 10.5* just because the golfer swinging it had a unique swing.

Now, in an adjustable driver, the face is more open or closed at address because of the shaft setting instead of the way the golfer sets up, and that changes the dynamic loft just as it always has. And indeed there are ball flight changes as a result. No problem, and I see the benefit of that adjustability. I do.

What is different is that the manufacturers now claim that the relationship between the sole of the driver and the ground has somehow changed and that the static loft is different. What they don't explain is how that happens.

Wishon points out in the report that ALL drivers have always been measured the same way in the same machine, and using that same standard way of measuring there is NO change to soled, static loft in the new drivers. The manufacturers say that there is in their measurements, but don't reveal how they are making those measurements.

Take your pick, and believe what you wish.
[/quote]

You are right. In relation to the sole of the club, adjusting the hosel rotational alignment will do nothing. The only company that has addressed this issue is TaylorMade with their adjustable sole plate (ASP) technology. This simple piece can change the way the club sits when soled. However, as I mentioned above, and as you noted, the club is swung and has never been brought back to impact in the soled position. Even in a "glued" club there will be a difference between "static loft" and "dynamic loft". The advantage of the adjustable club is that instead of having to try out 2 or even 3 differen lofted heads (which can get expensive very quickly) we can now make adjustments in a matter of minutes that will affect the dynamic loft. And when you are out of the golf course expecting a certain shot shape result what is more important to you? The static loft of your club when soled, or the dynamic loft produced at impact? As some of our members have so elegantly put it, the ball doesn't care what the club looks or acts like except for that split second that the two make contact.

[KYMAR]

[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378691188' post='7817641']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378688326' post='7817391']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

But this has ALWAYS been the case, no? Golfers hood the club or open it at address, make all sorts of compensations during their swings, etc. We've all played with guys who hit 8* drivers as high as your wedge, and with guys that hit a 10.5* 10.5 feet off the ground.

What nobody claimed was that the loft of the driver wasn't 8* or 10.5* just because the golfer swinging it had a unique swing.

Now, in an adjustable driver, the face is more open or closed at address because of the shaft setting instead of the way the golfer sets up, and that changes the dynamic loft just as it always has. And indeed there are ball flight changes as a result. No problem, and I see the benefit of that adjustability. I do.

What is different is that the manufacturers now claim that the relationship between the sole of the driver and the ground has somehow changed and that the static loft is different. What they don't explain is how that happens.

Wishon points out in the report that ALL drivers have always been measured the same way in the same machine, and using that same standard way of measuring there is NO change to soled, static loft in the new drivers. The manufacturers say that there is in their measurements, but don't reveal how they are making those measurements.

Take your pick, and believe what you wish.
[/quote]

You are right. In relation to the sole of the club, adjusting the hosel rotational alignment will do nothing. The only company that has addressed this issue is TaylorMade with their adjustable sole plate (ASP) technology. This simple piece can change the way the club sits when soled. However, as I mentioned above, and as you noted, the club is swung and has never been brought back to impact in the soled position. Even in a "glued" club there will be a difference between "static loft" and "dynamic loft". The advantage of the adjustable club is that instead of having to try out 2 or even 3 differen lofted heads (which can get expensive very quickly) we can now make adjustments in a matter of minutes that will affect the dynamic loft. And when you are out of the golf course expecting a certain shot shape result what is more important to you? The static loft of your club when soled, or the dynamic loft produced at impact? As some of our members have so elegantly put it, the ball doesn't care what the club looks or acts like except for that split second that the two make contact.
[/quote]

So wait the self promoting, club selling, non-engineer, unable-to-design-an-effective-adjustable-hosel-cuz-he-two-stoopid [i]i[/i][i]s right[/i] then?

[braby33]

Generally the adjustable loft takes part of the set up from static (laying the sole of the club on level ground) and converts it to dynamic. (Recognizing your face angle, and rotating until it is correct)

Does having the adjustability outweigh the probable loss of repeat ability of having to eyeball the face angle every time you set up?

And the adjusters do more than jus rotating the shaft would. They have an external geometry that is not parallel to the shaft. Altering this adjustment while the club is soled will alter lie and face angle. If you keep face angle fixed, and adjust, you are altering lie and face angle, but without the club being soled.

If someone is keeping the face angle consistent, trackman and flightscope will show the changes. But how consistently the user can rotate and hold the face angle as configured, will show up as some correlated increase in dispersion over the same swings as compared to if they were soling a fixed club.

[mxtitleistgolfer]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1378692160' post='7817711']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378691188' post='7817641']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378688326' post='7817391']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

But this has ALWAYS been the case, no? Golfers hood the club or open it at address, make all sorts of compensations during their swings, etc. We've all played with guys who hit 8* drivers as high as your wedge, and with guys that hit a 10.5* 10.5 feet off the ground.

What nobody claimed was that the loft of the driver wasn't 8* or 10.5* just because the golfer swinging it had a unique swing.

Now, in an adjustable driver, the face is more open or closed at address because of the shaft setting instead of the way the golfer sets up, and that changes the dynamic loft just as it always has. And indeed there are ball flight changes as a result. No problem, and I see the benefit of that adjustability. I do.

What is different is that the manufacturers now claim that the relationship between the sole of the driver and the ground has somehow changed and that the static loft is different. What they don't explain is how that happens.

Wishon points out in the report that ALL drivers have always been measured the same way in the same machine, and using that same standard way of measuring there is NO change to soled, static loft in the new drivers. The manufacturers say that there is in their measurements, but don't reveal how they are making those measurements.

Take your pick, and believe what you wish.
[/quote]

You are right. In relation to the sole of the club, adjusting the hosel rotational alignment will do nothing. The only company that has addressed this issue is TaylorMade with their adjustable sole plate (ASP) technology. This simple piece can change the way the club sits when soled. However, as I mentioned above, and as you noted, the club is swung and has never been brought back to impact in the soled position. Even in a "glued" club there will be a difference between "static loft" and "dynamic loft". The advantage of the adjustable club is that instead of having to try out 2 or even 3 differen lofted heads (which can get expensive very quickly) we can now make adjustments in a matter of minutes that will affect the dynamic loft. And when you are out of the golf course expecting a certain shot shape result what is more important to you? The static loft of your club when soled, or the dynamic loft produced at impact? As some of our members have so elegantly put it, the ball doesn't care what the club looks or acts like except for that split second that the two make contact.
[/quote]

So wait the self promoting, club selling, non-engineer, unable-to-design-an-effective-adjustable-hosel-cuz-he-two-stoopid [i]i[/i][i]s right[/i] then?
[/quote]

First, I never said he was stupid. Obviously a smart guy. He's got quite the cult following.

Second, he is right that the head itself is not physically changed, but that is not the point of the adjustable club. The point is to make changes to playing characteristics, and there is no doubt at all that they do that.

[Froth]

[quote name='braby33' timestamp='1378692803' post='7817763']
Generally the adjustable loft takes part of the set up from static (laying the sole of the club on level ground) and converts it to dynamic. (Recognizing your face angle, and rotating until it is correct)

Does having the adjustability outweigh the probable loss of repeat ability of having to eyeball the face angle every time you set up?

And the adjusters do more than jus rotating the shaft would. They have an external geometry that is not parallel to the shaft. Altering this adjustment while the club is soled will alter lie and face angle. If you keep face angle fixed, and adjust, you are altering lie and face angle, but without the club being soled.

If someone is keeping the face angle consistent, trackman and flightscope will show the changes. But how consistently the user can rotate and hold the face angle as configured, will show up as some correlated increase in dispersion over the same swings as compared to if they were soling a fixed club.
[/quote]
The ground isn't perfectly flat on all but the most immaculate tee-boxes, so soling the club has some room for error as well. The only perfect surface is the range mats or the mats in the simulator bay. Personally, I align my club face to vertical while holding the shaft upwards at 45° angle then I address the ball, takes out variables.

[KuroOuji54]

Question (not my field of study) but wouldn't the adapter wear out after awhile? Seems like there is no true bond. Almost as if the club head is "locked" into position, for lack of a better term.

[braby33]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378693679' post='7817845']
[quote name='braby33' timestamp='1378692803' post='7817763']
Generally the adjustable loft takes part of the set up from static (laying the sole of the club on level ground) and converts it to dynamic. (Recognizing your face angle, and rotating until it is correct)

Does having the adjustability outweigh the probable loss of repeat ability of having to eyeball the face angle every time you set up?

And the adjusters do more than jus rotating the shaft would. They have an external geometry that is not parallel to the shaft. Altering this adjustment while the club is soled will alter lie and face angle. If you keep face angle fixed, and adjust, you are altering lie and face angle, but without the club being soled.

If someone is keeping the face angle consistent, trackman and flightscope will show the changes. But how consistently the user can rotate and hold the face angle as configured, will show up as some correlated increase in dispersion over the same swings as compared to if they were soling a fixed club.
[/quote]
The ground isn't perfectly flat on all but the most immaculate tee-boxes, so soling the club has some room for error as well. The only perfect surface is the range mats or the mats in the simulator bay. Personally, I align my club face to vertical while holding the shaft upwards at 45° angle then I address the ball, takes out variables.
[/quote]

I'll agree soling the club is not perfect. But I think for many people it is probably a better starting point than trying to recognize face angle. Starting with vertical is just a different perceptual place to start. Given some of the houses I have worked on, there is quite a range of what perceptually passes for vertical as well. Some people will do better at each of these methods than others.

But fundamentally adaptable hosels take one of the traditional options out of play.