Why do we have adjustable drivers ?

[braby33]

[quote name='proquick72' timestamp='1378695166' post='7817927']
Question (not my field of study) but wouldn't the adapter wear out after awhile? Seems like there is no true bond. Almost as if the club head is "locked" into position, for lack of a better term.
[/quote]
Ideally the adapter is softer than the socket, causing any wear to be primarily to the adapter, so the wear part is replaceable. But, if everything is correctly designed and assembled, why would this be any more of a wear spot than where your car's wheels bolt to the hubs? (Ignoring the question of if they are properly designed)

[11under]

Because of hacks.

[Splitter]

I remember when everyone laughed that anyone would consider the TM sole plate as a "real" way to adjust a club.

Now, because some guys don't like adjustable drivers and Tom uses old equipment to measure new technology, suddenly soling a club on a crappy tee box is the only valid way to set up and in turn measure adjustability? GACK!

I get the preference for glued drivers, even if I don't agree with them. We all have preferences. But just because you don't understand how a tool works doesn't invalidate it's use, only YOUR use of the tool.

[TLUBulldogGolf]

For me the adjustments make a huge difference. If I put the weights in the draw set up on my Razr fit, I can't keep it on the planet. But in neutral with the face open it is perfect.

[KuroOuji54]

[quote name='braby33' timestamp='1378696627' post='7818005']
[quote name='proquick72' timestamp='1378695166' post='7817927']
Question (not my field of study) but wouldn't the adapter wear out after awhile? Seems like there is no true bond. Almost as if the club head is "locked" into position, for lack of a better term.
[/quote]
Ideally the adapter is softer than the socket, causing any wear to be primarily to the adapter, so the wear part is replaceable. But, if everything is correctly designed and assembled, why would this be any more of a wear spot than where your car's wheels bolt to the hubs? (Ignoring the question of if they are properly designed)
[/quote]

Ahh got it. Thank you! I've always wondered that but didn't know where to ask.

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1378692160' post='7817711']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378691188' post='7817641']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378688326' post='7817391']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

But this has ALWAYS been the case, no? Golfers hood the club or open it at address, make all sorts of compensations during their swings, etc. We've all played with guys who hit 8* drivers as high as your wedge, and with guys that hit a 10.5* 10.5 feet off the ground.

What nobody claimed was that the loft of the driver wasn't 8* or 10.5* just because the golfer swinging it had a unique swing.

Now, in an adjustable driver, the face is more open or closed at address because of the shaft setting instead of the way the golfer sets up, and that changes the dynamic loft just as it always has. And indeed there are ball flight changes as a result. No problem, and I see the benefit of that adjustability. I do.

What is different is that the manufacturers now claim that the relationship between the sole of the driver and the ground has somehow changed and that the static loft is different. What they don't explain is how that happens.

Wishon points out in the report that ALL drivers have always been measured the same way in the same machine, and using that same standard way of measuring there is NO change to soled, static loft in the new drivers. The manufacturers say that there is in their measurements, but don't reveal how they are making those measurements.

Take your pick, and believe what you wish.
[/quote]

You are right. In relation to the sole of the club, adjusting the hosel rotational alignment will do nothing. The only company that has addressed this issue is TaylorMade with their adjustable sole plate (ASP) technology. This simple piece can change the way the club sits when soled. However, as I mentioned above, and as you noted, the club is swung and has never been brought back to impact in the soled position. Even in a "glued" club there will be a difference between "static loft" and "dynamic loft". The advantage of the adjustable club is that instead of having to try out 2 or even 3 differen lofted heads (which can get expensive very quickly) we can now make adjustments in a matter of minutes that will affect the dynamic loft. And when you are out of the golf course expecting a certain shot shape result what is more important to you? The static loft of your club when soled, or the dynamic loft produced at impact? As some of our members have so elegantly put it, the ball doesn't care what the club looks or acts like except for that split second that the two make contact.
[/quote]

So wait the self promoting, club selling, non-engineer, unable-to-design-an-effective-adjustable-hosel-cuz-he-two-stoopid [i]i[/i][i]s right[/i] then?
[/quote]

C'mon. tell how you REALLY feel!

A bit harsh, IMHO.

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='Splitter' timestamp='1378698461' post='7818085']
I remember when everyone laughed that anyone would consider the TM sole plate as a "real" way to adjust a club.

Now, because some guys don't like adjustable drivers and Tom uses old equipment to measure new technology, suddenly soling a club on a crappy tee box is the only valid way to set up and in turn measure adjustability? GACK!

I get the preference for glued drivers, even if I don't agree with them. We all have preferences. But just because you don't understand how a tool works doesn't invalidate it's use, only YOUR use of the tool.
[/quote]

Speaking of the TM ASP, I find it very beneficial on fairway heads. I play many courses with tightly mown fairways and being able to reduce sole contact gives me an advantage when picking the ball from the turf. I see many posts here at GolfWRX about trouble with FWs off the deck. I play the R11 14* and 17* and they are some of the most reliable FWs I have ever used. I used the 975F FWs for years and they were great EXCEPT when I had to attempt a cut. When opening the face to play this shot, I always got excessive sole slap, especially with firm turf, that would sometimes spoil the shot. I crank the ASP all the way down on my R11 FWs and they are as easy to hit off the deck as an iron.

Food for thought.

BT

[nbg352]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1378687003' post='7817295']
I prefer a "glued" driver myself, but options are limited. When I went through my driver fitting what worked best was an adjustable driver. I have adjusted it for fun, but the only setting that works best is the one I was fitted for, and that's were it stays.

I don't need an adjustable driver.
[/quote]
All things being equal, once properly fitted, no adjustable driver ever needs to be adjusted again.

[cxx]

[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1378692160' post='7817711']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378691188' post='7817641']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378688326' post='7817391']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

But this has ALWAYS been the case, no? Golfers hood the club or open it at address, make all sorts of compensations during their swings, etc. We've all played with guys who hit 8* drivers as high as your wedge, and with guys that hit a 10.5* 10.5 feet off the ground.

What nobody claimed was that the loft of the driver wasn't 8* or 10.5* just because the golfer swinging it had a unique swing.

Now, in an adjustable driver, the face is more open or closed at address because of the shaft setting instead of the way the golfer sets up, and that changes the dynamic loft just as it always has. And indeed there are ball flight changes as a result. No problem, and I see the benefit of that adjustability. I do.

What is different is that the manufacturers now claim that the relationship between the sole of the driver and the ground has somehow changed and that the static loft is different. What they don't explain is how that happens.

Wishon points out in the report that ALL drivers have always been measured the same way in the same machine, and using that same standard way of measuring there is NO change to soled, static loft in the new drivers. The manufacturers say that there is in their measurements, but don't reveal how they are making those measurements.

Take your pick, and believe what you wish.
[/quote]

You are right. In relation to the sole of the club, adjusting the hosel rotational alignment will do nothing. The only company that has addressed this issue is TaylorMade with their adjustable sole plate (ASP) technology. This simple piece can change the way the club sits when soled. However, as I mentioned above, and as you noted, the club is swung and has never been brought back to impact in the soled position. Even in a "glued" club there will be a difference between "static loft" and "dynamic loft". The advantage of the adjustable club is that instead of having to try out 2 or even 3 differen lofted heads (which can get expensive very quickly) we can now make adjustments in a matter of minutes that will affect the dynamic loft. And when you are out of the golf course expecting a certain shot shape result what is more important to you? The static loft of your club when soled, or the dynamic loft produced at impact? As some of our members have so elegantly put it, the ball doesn't care what the club looks or acts like except for that split second that the two make contact.
[/quote]

So wait the self promoting, club selling, non-engineer, unable-to-design-an-effective-adjustable-hosel-cuz-he-two-stoopid [i]i[/i][i]s right[/i] then?
[/quote]

Only in the most limited sense. They key is that with adjustable drivers, most manufacturers have abandoned this idea of "static loft", described by Wishon as the sole to face angle. Some new drivers don't even have a sole that will hold the club stable while resting on the ground. Instead, the manufacturers are all talking about loft as the "dynamic loft", that is more like you would measure the loft of an iron, the angle between the shaft and face when the face and shaft are aligned at your target. Even the goofy numbers in Tom's report reflect the manufacturers claims when the open or closed club face is rotated to square. I think most of the arguments are the result of people being purposefully semantically obtuse. Hey, things change, get used to it.

All the golfers that I see hold the club in place before swinging rather than let the ground determine where the club points.

[bluedot]

[quote name='cxx' timestamp='1378748095' post='7820307']
[quote name='KYMAR' timestamp='1378692160' post='7817711']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378691188' post='7817641']
[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378688326' post='7817391']
[quote name='mxtitleistgolfer' timestamp='1378685955' post='7817207']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

What's missing is the simple principle that the club head is not delivered at impact in the soled position.
[/quote]

But this has ALWAYS been the case, no? Golfers hood the club or open it at address, make all sorts of compensations during their swings, etc. We've all played with guys who hit 8* drivers as high as your wedge, and with guys that hit a 10.5* 10.5 feet off the ground.

What nobody claimed was that the loft of the driver wasn't 8* or 10.5* just because the golfer swinging it had a unique swing.

Now, in an adjustable driver, the face is more open or closed at address because of the shaft setting instead of the way the golfer sets up, and that changes the dynamic loft just as it always has. And indeed there are ball flight changes as a result. No problem, and I see the benefit of that adjustability. I do.

What is different is that the manufacturers now claim that the relationship between the sole of the driver and the ground has somehow changed and that the static loft is different. What they don't explain is how that happens.

Wishon points out in the report that ALL drivers have always been measured the same way in the same machine, and using that same standard way of measuring there is NO change to soled, static loft in the new drivers. The manufacturers say that there is in their measurements, but don't reveal how they are making those measurements.

Take your pick, and believe what you wish.
[/quote]

You are right. In relation to the sole of the club, adjusting the hosel rotational alignment will do nothing. The only company that has addressed this issue is TaylorMade with their adjustable sole plate (ASP) technology. This simple piece can change the way the club sits when soled. However, as I mentioned above, and as you noted, the club is swung and has never been brought back to impact in the soled position. Even in a "glued" club there will be a difference between "static loft" and "dynamic loft". The advantage of the adjustable club is that instead of having to try out 2 or even 3 differen lofted heads (which can get expensive very quickly) we can now make adjustments in a matter of minutes that will affect the dynamic loft. And when you are out of the golf course expecting a certain shot shape result what is more important to you? The static loft of your club when soled, or the dynamic loft produced at impact? As some of our members have so elegantly put it, the ball doesn't care what the club looks or acts like except for that split second that the two make contact.
[/quote]

So wait the self promoting, club selling, non-engineer, unable-to-design-an-effective-adjustable-hosel-cuz-he-two-stoopid [i]i[/i][i]s right[/i] then?
[/quote]

Only in the most limited sense. They key is that with adjustable drivers, most manufacturers have abandoned this idea of "static loft", described by Wishon as the sole to face angle. Some new drivers don't even have a sole that will hold the club stable while resting on the ground. Instead, the manufacturers are all talking about loft as the "dynamic loft", that is more like you would measure the loft of an iron, the angle between the shaft and face when the face and shaft are aligned at your target. Even the goofy numbers in Tom's report reflect the manufacturers claims when the open or closed club face is rotated to square. I think most of the arguments are the result of people being purposefully semantically obtuse. Hey, things change, get used to it.

All the golfers that I see hold the club in place before swinging rather than let the ground determine where the club points.
[/quote]

A couple of points:

Iron lofts are measured in a machine with the club soled; there are videos available of how this is done. Otherwise, it would be impossible to have the loft and lie of an iron checked and adjusted periodically.

Drivers aren't different in this respect; the loft of the club has always been measured in a soled position. Since every swing is different and moving at a high rate of speed, "static" loft has been the starting point for determining the proper driver for a particular player for many years. This isn't "described by Wishon"; this has been the industry standard for ALL golf equipment for decades and decades.

The point that so many have been trying to make here is that when the manufacturers say that loft has changed by 1/2* or 1* or whatever because the face angle has changed, they are talking about dynamic loft as if it was a static measurement when in fact the static measurement hasn't changed at all. While this has proven to be excellent marketing, it isn't excellent science because the type of loft they are describing can't be measured accurately or even necessarily replicated from swing to swing.

None of this means that adjustable drivers aren't a good thing and aren't here to stay. Some golfers love the ability to change shafts easily, and others will be well-served by being able to play a more open or more closed faced club. It is also clear that there ARE ball flight changes when you open and close the face of a club, and that some of that change has to do with changes to dynamic loft.

BUT, and this is large IMO, the golfer who believes that they are going to be able to buy a driver and change lofts according to how wet the course is or how much the wind is blowing or how many forced carries there are and get their normal draw or fade just flighted higher or lower as would be the case with a 10.5 vs a 9 is buying into marketing that doesn't have any basis in fact.

[Splitter]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378759122' post='7821377']

A couple of points:

Iron lofts are measured in a machine with the club soled; there are videos available of how this is done. Otherwise, it would be impossible to have the loft and lie of an iron checked and adjusted periodically.

Drivers aren't different in this respect; the loft of the club has always been measured in a soled position. Since every swing is different and moving at a high rate of speed, "static" loft has been the starting point for determining the proper driver for a particular player for many years. This isn't "described by Wishon"; this has been the industry standard for ALL golf equipment for decades and decades.

The point that so many have been trying to make here is that when the manufacturers say that loft has changed by 1/2* or 1* or whatever because the face angle has changed, they are talking about dynamic loft as if it was a static measurement when in fact the static measurement hasn't changed at all. While this has proven to be excellent marketing, it isn't excellent science because [b]the type of loft they are describing can't be measured accurately[/b] or even necessarily replicated from swing to swing.

None of this means that adjustable drivers aren't a good thing and aren't here to stay. Some golfers love the ability to change shafts easily, and others will be well-served by being able to play a more open or more closed faced club. It is also clear that there ARE ball flight changes when you open and close the face of a club, and that some of that change has to do with changes to dynamic loft.

BUT, and this is large IMO, the golfer who believes that they are going to be able to buy a driver and change lofts according to how wet the course is or how much the wind is blowing or how many forced carries there are and get their normal draw or fade just flighted higher or lower as would be the case with a 10.5 vs a 9 is buying into marketing that doesn't have any basis in fact.
[/quote]

I agree with most of this..

But...

I don't understand why anyone thinks that adjustable loft drivers cannot be measured. *Anything* can be measured if you start from a base point. You don't need a giant steel brace and/or calipers etc.... You just need a starting point and a laser. It's the base/starting point that represents the issue. I doubt manufacturing tolerances have gotten that much better (and maybe worse) with adjustable drivers so without knowing how they are measuring the base point, it's difficult to "prove" how much adjustment is actually happening.

But none of that means it's not measurable.

Someone with more resources than me could build a rig with a shaft clamp and laser, establish their own base point and start measuring. It's a little more complicated than that, but not much. The problem is, it's not really in anyones interest to do so. Manufacturers don't care if we know how to measure their gear. And fitters just make changes until the ball flight looks good and the $$$ change hand..

It's kind of like swing weight. With current gear, SW is pretty antiquated, but it's not in anyones financial interest to come up with a better system. Doesn't mean it can't be done tho....

[mxtitleistgolfer]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378759122' post='7821377']
A couple of points:

[b]Iron lofts are measured in a machine with the club soled; there are videos available of how this is done. Otherwise, it would be impossible to have the loft and lie of an iron checked and adjusted periodically.

Drivers aren't different in this respect; the loft of the club has always been measured in a soled position. Since every swing is different and moving at a high rate of speed, "static" loft has been the starting point for determining the proper driver for a particular player for many years. This isn't "described by Wishon"; this has been the industry standard for ALL golf equipment for decades and decades.[/b]

The point that so many have been trying to make here is that when the manufacturers say that loft has changed by 1/2* or 1* or whatever because the face angle has changed, they are talking about dynamic loft as if it was a static measurement when in fact the static measurement hasn't changed at all. While this has proven to be excellent marketing, it isn't excellent science because the type of loft they are describing can't be measured accurately or even necessarily replicated from swing to swing.

None of this means that adjustable drivers aren't a good thing and aren't here to stay. Some golfers love the ability to change shafts easily, and others will be well-served by being able to play a more open or more closed faced club. It is also clear that there ARE ball flight changes when you open and close the face of a club, and that some of that change has to do with changes to dynamic loft.

BUT, and this is large IMO, the golfer who believes that they are going to be able to buy a driver and change lofts according to how wet the course is or how much the wind is blowing or how many forced carries there are and get their normal draw or fade just flighted higher or lower as would be the case with a 10.5 vs a 9 is buying into marketing that doesn't have any basis in fact.
[/quote]

What's being missed here is that irons, while being measured with the sole resting naturally in a cradle, they are measured in the "square" position with respect to the shaft.

The "old school" method of measuring driver lofts in the soled position does not account for a specific face angle, which is why Tom says there is no change.

Now if you were to measure an adjustable driver or fairway with the same standards that you measure irons and wedges you would find that there are definitely changes in loft when making adjustments to the hosel.

Think of it this way: I can say making loft adjustments to irons doesn't actually work because bending the hosel while the head is clamped does not change the angle between the face and the sole of the club. Now does that make sense? No way. So why is it so wrong that manufacturers decided to add one more constraint to the degrees of freedom when measuring wood heads? In essence they are simply now following the same rules as measuring every other type of golf club.

[cxx]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378759122' post='7821377']

A couple of points:

Iron lofts are measured in a machine with the club soled; there are videos available of how this is done. Otherwise, it would be impossible to have the loft and lie of an iron checked and adjusted periodically.

Drivers aren't different in this respect; the loft of the club has always been measured in a soled position. Since every swing is different and moving at a high rate of speed, "static" loft has been the starting point for determining the proper driver for a particular player for many years. This isn't "described by Wishon"; this has been the industry standard for ALL golf equipment for decades and decades.

The point that so many have been trying to make here is that when the manufacturers say that loft has changed by 1/2* or 1* or whatever because the face angle has changed, they are talking about dynamic loft as if it was a static measurement when in fact the static measurement hasn't changed at all. While this has proven to be excellent marketing, it isn't excellent science because the type of loft they are describing can't be measured accurately or even necessarily replicated from swing to swing.

None of this means that adjustable drivers aren't a good thing and aren't here to stay. Some golfers love the ability to change shafts easily, and others will be well-served by being able to play a more open or more closed faced club. It is also clear that there ARE ball flight changes when you open and close the face of a club, and that some of that change has to do with changes to dynamic loft.

BUT, and this is large IMO, the golfer who believes that they are going to be able to buy a driver and change lofts according to how wet the course is or how much the wind is blowing or how many forced carries there are and get their normal draw or fade just flighted higher or lower as would be the case with a 10.5 vs a 9 is buying into marketing that doesn't have any basis in fact.
[/quote]

Irons are not measured based on how the sole lies against the ground. Most irons, except for the most extreme SGI clubs, won't lie on their soles without some help, they will flop over. For some models the sole may only touch at one point if it is curved. But iron lofts are measured accurately by aligning them in a fixture and, unlike how you would measure a driver, this has very little to do with the shape of the sole. Drivers should be measured in the same way as irons but that is contrary to how they have been measured since the beginning of time. My point being that the OEMs have abandoned the old (which has limited relevance in the adjustable world) and have adopted the new.

Take a look at the numbers again. When rotated back to square the lofts reported in Tom's paper reflect the manufacturers claimed lofts.

[avguy]

My two adjustables used primarily for play or range were chosen not for angles or even so much shaft changing. I simply like having my shafts cut down to play drivers anywhere from 43.5-44 inches.

With that, I don't have the skills or tools to adjust SW, MOI, any flavor of the day "internally" on my clubs. I also hate lead tape in huge chunks. It's also toxic.
(I will use up to 6 in. or so at max.)

Main point with my Callaway RF and the Titleist 910 D2 - I was easily able to acquire the [color=#000080]additional factory port screws[/color] to replace the lighter ones that came stock - keeping that flavor 'o the day good for feel. I love my shorter, yet still great feel drivers now. Oh, I did also put in upgraded aftermarket shafts at the shorter lengths, but that was just the frosting.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1378687496' post='7817337']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

Tom also believes that all golfers should let the turf set the club up for the. I disagree with this due to the answers I have recieved from over 100 golfers I have talked to since that thread (and my own experience). If you think about the process you use seting for a shot, I believe you will also disagree.

BT
[/quote]

But if the head hasn't actually changed, then what has?

[Froth]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378772415' post='7822609']
But if the head hasn't actually changed, then what has?
[/quote]
The head rotates around an axis which is not related to the shaft. Imagine a .335 shaft in a .370 head, when you rotate the adjustment the head tilts back slightly on the shaft angle. The relation of clubhead to shaft is at a very slightly different angle at different settings since It's an eccentric adjustment.

[MadGolfer76]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378774437' post='7822861']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378772415' post='7822609']
But if the head hasn't actually changed, then what has?
[/quote]
The head rotates around an axis which is not related to the shaft. Imagine a .335 shaft in a .370 head, when you rotate the adjustment the head tilts back slightly on the shaft angle. The relation of clubhead to shaft is at a very slightly different angle at different settings since It's an eccentric adjustment.
[/quote]

But if the shaft is round (it is), and folks aren't exact with the gripping of the club (orientation), what good is it? I get that the club can open and close relative to one fixed point on a shaft, but since most grips aren't spined/ribbed, there are no points of reference in terms of face "angle" relative to a given point on the shaft, right? So how can people be sure that they have opened the club face AND maintained that angle once they grip the club?

edit: Wouldn't that force them to ground it to check?

Ack, this stuff hurts my face.

[Bobcat43]

[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378650375' post='7815253']
HOORAY I STARTED LONG POSTING ARGUMENT TIME! *Muahahahah*.
[/quote]

65 days on WRX and 1239 posts... damn you must have union job.

[Froth]

[quote name='Bobcat43' timestamp='1378785264' post='7824005']
[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378650375' post='7815253']
HOORAY I STARTED LONG POSTING ARGUMENT TIME! *Muahahahah*.
[/quote]

65 days on WRX and 1239 posts... damn you must have union job.
[/quote]
Massive insomnia.

[NRJyzr]

I recently bought my first adjustable driver, an R11s, and did so primarily because multiple swings, over multiple distinct "sessions," with this model have shown that it works well for me.

That said, I have to admit the adjustability angle was also a factor in my choosing this club. If the clubhead I purchased turned out to be more open or closed than I preferred, I wanted the ability to close or open it to the point I wished. If the clubhead I purchased turned out to be slightly higher or lower in loft from what worked best, I wanted the ability to change the loft slightly to the point I wished.

The icing on this cake was a frequently ignored aspect of the recent TM drivers (other than the SLDR), that being the ability to swap out the heel/toe weights. I'm not interested in moving them back and forth from heel to toe, but rather was interested in swapping out the stock weights with heavier ones, in order to bring the head weight up for a shorter driver.

I prefer my drivers around 44", maybe 44½". I'm not averse to lead tape, and had this club lacked this option, I would have gone that route, but with the weights available, I bought the ones I was interested in and swapped them with the stock weights, giving me the 44"/D5 club I was interested in.

I've been adding weight to my drivers for years, but I've never been able to tweak the loft and/or face angle to get what I wanted out of a single clubhead.

I have no idea why anyone would complain about this as an option. You're not FORCED to use it, if you're not interested in it.

[size=2]edited for grammar[/size]

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378772415' post='7822609']
[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1378687496' post='7817337']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378684182' post='7817099']
So, Tom Wishon says that any adjustments are lost when the club is soled and gripped? I haven't read anything more than anecdotes about this being false. Seems simple to me, but what am I missing?
[/quote]

Tom also believes that all golfers should let the turf set the club up for the. I disagree with this due to the answers I have recieved from over 100 golfers I have talked to since that thread (and my own experience). If you think about the process you use seting for a shot, I believe you will also disagree.

BT
[/quote]

But if the head hasn't actually changed, then what has?
[/quote]

The angle between the shaft and the clubhead. When this angle is changed, it affects the relationship between shaft and the entire clubhead. That includes the angle between the shaft and the clubface (loft) and the angle between the shaft and the sole (face angle).

If you the swing the club into the ball with the face square, the loft applied to the ball will have changed due to the adjustment.

[size=5]HOWEVER, [size=4]if you use the sole of the club to set your alignment for the shot and swing it into the ball as it is, the loft [b]does not[/b] change and the face angle [b]does[/b]. This is because when the sole is allowed to settle, the face will roll back to it's original loft and be pointing either left or right of square.[/size][/size]

This is where everyone is getting hung up. It's really not a new concept. Prior to adjustable clubs, we either bent shafts or filed off the face or sole of the (persimmon) club to do the same thing.

BT

[Ri_Redneck]

[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378782743' post='7823807']
[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378774437' post='7822861']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378772415' post='7822609']
But if the head hasn't actually changed, then what has?
[/quote]
The head rotates around an axis which is not related to the shaft. Imagine a .335 shaft in a .370 head, when you rotate the adjustment the head tilts back slightly on the shaft angle. The relation of clubhead to shaft is at a very slightly different angle at different settings since It's an eccentric adjustment.
[/quote]

[b]But if the shaft is round (it is), and folks aren't exact with the gripping of the club (orientation), what good is it?[/b] I get that the club can open and close relative to one fixed point on a shaft, but since most grips aren't spined/ribbed, there are no points of reference in terms of face "angle" relative to a given point on the shaft, right? So how can people be sure that they have opened the club face AND maintained that angle once they grip the club?

edit: Wouldn't that force them to ground it to check?

Ack, this stuff hurts my face.
[/quote]

If you pay close attention, it is quite easy. Most of us do it on [b][size=5]every single iron shot![/size][/b] Think about it. You practice and you teach yourself to do it. IMHO, I believe that most people are erratic with their woods because they think they SHOULD let the sole of the club set the clubhead up. They are at the mercy of what ever irregular surface they happen to be hitting off and wonder why they can't be consistent. [b]You can set the clubhead on the ground, but never let the ground set up the club.[/b] Visual alignment is FAR more accurate than ANY turf I've ever played off.

BT

[bluedot]

[quote name='Ri_Redneck' timestamp='1378841750' post='7827505']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378782743' post='7823807']
[quote name='Froth' timestamp='1378774437' post='7822861']
[quote name='MadGolfer76' timestamp='1378772415' post='7822609']
But if the head hasn't actually changed, then what has?
[/quote]
The head rotates around an axis which is not related to the shaft. Imagine a .335 shaft in a .370 head, when you rotate the adjustment the head tilts back slightly on the shaft angle. The relation of clubhead to shaft is at a very slightly different angle at different settings since It's an eccentric adjustment.
[/quote]

[b]But if the shaft is round (it is), and folks aren't exact with the gripping of the club (orientation), what good is it?[/b] I get that the club can open and close relative to one fixed point on a shaft, but since most grips aren't spined/ribbed, there are no points of reference in terms of face "angle" relative to a given point on the shaft, right? So how can people be sure that they have opened the club face AND maintained that angle once they grip the club?

edit: Wouldn't that force them to ground it to check?

Ack, this stuff hurts my face.
[/quote]

If you pay close attention, it is quite easy. Most of us do it on [b][size=5]every single iron shot![/size][/b] Think about it. You practice and you teach yourself to do it. IMHO, I believe that most people are erratic with their woods because they think they SHOULD let the sole of the club set the clubhead up. They are at the mercy of what ever irregular surface they happen to be hitting off and wonder why they can't be consistent. [b]You can set the clubhead on the ground, but never let the ground set up the club.[/b] Visual alignment is FAR more accurate than ANY turf I've ever played off.

BT
[/quote]

With all due respect, the reason most people are more erratic with their woods than with their irons is the same reason that they are more erratic with their long irons than with their short irons. Less loft and longer shafts reduce the margin of error from the Tour on down.

As to how an individual golfer does or doesn't sole the club to take their grip, I don't see any reason to think that differs from irons to woods or shorter clubs to longer clubs or anything else. Personal preference/habit, and differs widely.

[bluedot]

[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1378825365' post='7825751']
I recently bought my first adjustable driver, an R11s, and did so primarily because multiple swings, over multiple distinct "sessions," with this model have shown that it works well for me.

That said, I have to admit the adjustability angle was also a factor in my choosing this club. If the clubhead I purchased turned out to be more open or closed than I preferred, I wanted the ability to close or open it to the point I wished. If the clubhead I purchased turned out to be slightly higher or lower in loft from what worked best, I wanted the ability to change the loft slightly to the point I wished.

The icing on this cake was a frequently ignored aspect of the recent TM drivers (other than the SLDR), that being the ability to swap out the heel/toe weights. I'm not interested in moving them back and forth from heel to toe, but rather was interested in swapping out the stock weights with heavier ones, in order to bring the head weight up for a shorter driver.

I prefer my drivers around 44", maybe 44½". I'm not averse to lead tape, and had this club lacked this option, I would have gone that route, but with the weights available, I bought the ones I was interested in and swapped them with the stock weights, giving me the 44"/D5 club I was interested in.

I've been adding weight to my drivers for years, but I've never been able to tweak the loft and/or face angle to get what I wanted out of a single clubhead.

I have no idea why anyone would complain about this as an option. You're not FORCED to use it, if you're not interested in it.

[size=2]edited for grammar[/size]
[/quote]

I don't think anybody IS complaining about adjustability as an option. I'm sure that my next driver will be adjustable if only because there won't be any glued drivers offered, and I don't object to that. I don't think it will matter to me, if only because I like a closed face so that I can eliminate one side of the golf course; I play better than way and have used closed face drivers for a long, long time in order to accomplish that. Ping's drivers (with the exception of the Rapture V2, which I hit a long way but with two-way misses) have been slightly closed and thus perfect for me.

I have yet to be convinced, though, that there are advantages beyond changing shafts and changing face angles. The science of the loft thing just doesn't ring true to me. (And really, I can't imagine a really good player changing shafts very often or face angle ever; really good players stay with their equipment MUCH longer than hacks.)

The original discussion was about "why", not whether.

[cxx]

[quote name='bluedot' timestamp='1378846590' post='7827991']
[quote name='NRJyzr' timestamp='1378825365' post='7825751']
I recently bought my first adjustable driver, an R11s, and did so primarily because multiple swings, over multiple distinct "sessions," with this model have shown that it works well for me.

That said, I have to admit the adjustability angle was also a factor in my choosing this club. If the clubhead I purchased turned out to be more open or closed than I preferred, I wanted the ability to close or open it to the point I wished. If the clubhead I purchased turned out to be slightly higher or lower in loft from what worked best, I wanted the ability to change the loft slightly to the point I wished.

The icing on this cake was a frequently ignored aspect of the recent TM drivers (other than the SLDR), that being the ability to swap out the heel/toe weights. I'm not interested in moving them back and forth from heel to toe, but rather was interested in swapping out the stock weights with heavier ones, in order to bring the head weight up for a shorter driver.

I prefer my drivers around 44", maybe 44½". I'm not averse to lead tape, and had this club lacked this option, I would have gone that route, but with the weights available, I bought the ones I was interested in and swapped them with the stock weights, giving me the 44"/D5 club I was interested in.

I've been adding weight to my drivers for years, but I've never been able to tweak the loft and/or face angle to get what I wanted out of a single clubhead.

I have no idea why anyone would complain about this as an option. You're not FORCED to use it, if you're not interested in it.

[size=2]edited for grammar[/size]
[/quote]

I don't think anybody IS complaining about adjustability as an option. I'm sure that my next driver will be adjustable if only because there won't be any glued drivers offered, and I don't object to that. I don't think it will matter to me, if only because I like a closed face so that I can eliminate one side of the golf course; I play better than way and have used closed face drivers for a long, long time in order to accomplish that. Ping's drivers (with the exception of the Rapture V2, which I hit a long way but with two-way misses) have been slightly closed and thus perfect for me.

I have yet to be convinced, though, that there are advantages beyond changing shafts and changing face angles. The science of the loft thing just doesn't ring true to me. (And really, I can't imagine a really good player changing shafts very often or face angle ever; really good players stay with their equipment MUCH longer than hacks.)

The original discussion was about "why", not whether.
[/quote]

One reason is that someone that needs a closed face driver (a lot of people do) can play the same club as everyone else rather than getting the draw version.