Finding Your 1st Ball AFTER Putting Out With Your 2nd

[gambit]

Here's the situation. My brother in law and I were playing. We both put our tee shots behind near trees. I had to punch out because I was actually behind a couple. My brother in law tries to go between and over the water to the green. He hit's the branches of the tree. We don't see a ball come out. We don't hear anything hit the ground. So we assume it either got stuck in the tree or maybe landed in the reeds around the water. Anyways, he finishes the hole with that second ball. Never called provisional if it matters with where this is headed. After carding an 8 he spots his first ball in the greenside bunker. He decides to play it because he'll end up better than an 8. I'm pretty sure this is not legal? We weren't playing for anything, so I don't really care except that I like the scorecard to be accurate as to how we played. If it's not legal, how should I tell him about these issues when the arise? He's the nicest guy in the world, but I think he doesn't know some of the rules.

[Sawgrass]

If your brother in law legally dropped after believing his ball was lost, and did not announce a provisional, then the new ball was immediately in play and it didn't matter that he later found his original.

Even if he did announce a provisional, if he finished the hole with it the original was no longer in play from the moment the provisional was played from a point that was closer to the hole than where the original was likely to be.

[4Wedges]

Once he put a second ball in play, that is the ball in play. Even if he would have announced a provisional ball...once he played it beyond where the original ball was likely to be it was again, the ball in play.

Tell him "Nice 8".

[gambit]

Thanks guys. I just told him "6 is better than 8" at the time LOL. Funny thing is this is not the first time it's happened. Not always after finishing a hole, but he never announces provisional and he usually finds the original ball after hitting the second ball again.

[4Wedges]

He definitely needs to learn the provisional rule then...it's the rules and could save him some strokes for those times he chooses to follow the rules.

[gambit]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1380919253' post='7953611']
He definitely needs to learn the provisional rule then...it's the rules and could save him some strokes for those times he chooses to follow the rules.
[/quote]

There are a few rules he needs to learn, but he's a good dude for sure.

[idrive]

I thought that after hitting a shot and then searching for it that as soon as it was declared lost, as soon as I turned my back and
headed back to play the shot over again, that was it. Even if the other ball is found it can not be played. The ball you are re hitting
is not a provisional but the ball now in play.

[Newby]

[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1380953754' post='7955573']
I thought that after hitting a shot and then searching for it that as soon as it was declared lost, as soon as I turned my back and
headed back to play the shot over again, that was it.
[/quote]

You cannot declare a ball lost. It becomes lost when one of the items in the definition is satisfied

[b]A ball is deemed lost[color=#000000][size=3]” if:[/size][/color]
[b][color=#000000][size=3][b]a.[/b] It is not found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Side"]side[/url][/i] or his or their [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Caddie"]caddies[/url][/i] have begun to search for it; or[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3][b]b.[/b] The player has made a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] at a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Provisional-Ball"]provisional ball[/url][/i] from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hole"]hole[/url][/i] than that place (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-2b"]27-2b[/url]); or[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3][b]c.[/b] The player has put another ball into play under penalty of stroke and distance under Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-26/#26-1a"]26-1a[/url], [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-1"]27-1[/url] or [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#28a"]28a[/url]; or[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3][b]d.[/b] The player has put another ball into play because it is known or virtually certain that the ball, which has not been found, has been moved by an [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Outside-Agency"]outside agency[/url][/i] (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-18/#18-1"]18-1[/url]), is in an [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Obstructions"]obstruction[/url][/i] (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-24/#24-3"]24-3[/url]), is in an [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Abnormal-Ground-Conditions"]abnormal ground condition[/url][/i] (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-25/#25-1c"]25-1c[/url]) or is in a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Water-Hazard"]water hazard[/url][/i] (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-26/#26-1b"]26-1b[/url] or [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#c"]c[/url]); or[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3][b]e.[/b] The player has made a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] at a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Substituted-Ball"]substituted ball[/url][/i].[/size][/color][/b][/b]

[b] 27/16 -[/b][b] Ball Declared Lost Is Found Before Another Ball Put into Play[/b]

[color=#000000][size=3][color=red][size=3][b]Q.[/b][/size][/color]A player searched for his ball for two minutes, declared it lost and started back to play another ball at the spot from which the original ball was played. Before he put another ball into play, his original ball was found within the five-minute period allowed for search. What is the ruling?[/size][/color]
[color=#000000][size=3][color=red][size=3][b]A.[/b][/size][/color]A player cannot render a ball lost by a declaration - see Definition of "Lost Ball." The original ball remained in play - see Definition of "Ball in Play."[/size][/color]

[4Wedges]

[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1380953754' post='7955573']
I thought that after hitting a shot and then searching for it that as soon as it was declared lost, as soon as I turned my back and
headed back to play the shot over again, that was it. Even if the other ball is found it can not be played. The ball you are re hitting
is not a provisional but the ball now in play.
[/quote]

You can't "declare" a ball lost. Your actions (or time) determine that and by putting another ball in play without declaring a provisional as in the op's situation is one of those actions.

[Newby]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1380966987' post='7955739']
[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1380953754' post='7955573']
I thought that after hitting a shot and then searching for it that as soon as it was declared lost, as soon as I turned my back and
headed back to play the shot over again, that was it. Even if the other ball is found it can not be played. The ball you are re hitting
is not a provisional but the ball now in play.
[/quote]

You can't "declare" a ball lost. Your actions (or time) determine that and by putting another ball in play without declaring a provisional as in the op's situation is one of those actions.
[/quote]

What happened to the 'facts' ?

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1380971665' post='7955809']
[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1380966987' post='7955739']
[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1380953754' post='7955573']
I thought that after hitting a shot and then searching for it that as soon as it was declared lost, as soon as I turned my back and
headed back to play the shot over again, that was it. Even if the other ball is found it can not be played. The ball you are re hitting
is not a provisional but the ball now in play.
[/quote]

You can't "declare" a ball lost. Your actions (or time) determine that and by putting another ball in play without declaring a provisional as in the op's situation is one of those actions.
[/quote]

What happened to the 'facts' ?
[/quote]

He may have been too busy repeating what you and I had said and resorted to mere "opinion."

[Kaysquare]

Buy him a book of rules...sometimes they're free in your pro shop.

[4Wedges]

[quote name='Kaysquare' timestamp='1380981713' post='7956225']
Buy him a book of rules...sometimes they're free in your pro shop.
[/quote]

Join the USGA and they'll send you one.

[Girevik]

[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1380956516' post='7955625']
You cannot declare a ball lost. It becomes lost when one of the items in the definition is satisfied

[b]A ball is deemed lost[color=#000000][size=3]” if:[/size][/color]
[b][color=#000000][size=3][b]b.[/b] The player has made a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] at a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Provisional-Ball"]provisional ball[/url][/i] from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hole"]hole[/url][/i] than that place (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-2b"]27-2b[/url]); or[/size][/color][/b][/b]
[/quote]

Does that mean if my provisional obviously doesn't go as far as my original did, I can take a 2nd shot (or even 3rd if I flub both of those), and still play the original if found? I would have thought a 2nd stroke with a provisional regardless of where it ended up would put that one in play, but I guess it makes sense in that you look for your original ball as you're traveling to the provisional.

[Newby]

[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381260607' post='7971567']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1380956516' post='7955625']
You cannot declare a ball lost. It becomes lost when one of the items in the definition is satisfied

[b]A ball is deemed lost[color=#000000][size=3]” if:[/size][/color]
[b][color=#000000][size=3][b]b.[/b] The player has made a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] at a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Provisional-Ball"]provisional ball[/url][/i] from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hole"]hole[/url][/i] than that place (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-2b"]27-2b[/url]); or[/size][/color][/b][/b]
[/quote]

Does that mean if my provisional obviously doesn't go as far as my original did, I can take a 2nd shot (or even 3rd if I flub both of those), and still play the original if found? I would have thought a 2nd stroke with a provisional regardless of where it ended up would put that one in play, but I guess it makes sense in that you look for your original ball as you're traveling to the provisional.
[/quote]

As the provisional is played primarily to save time, it makes sense to keep playing it until you reach the point where the original is likely to be. Then you can start searching for it.

[4Wedges]

[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381260607' post='7971567']
[quote name='Newby' timestamp='1380956516' post='7955625']
You cannot declare a ball lost. It becomes lost when one of the items in the definition is satisfied

[b]A ball is deemed lost[color=#000000][size=3]” if:[/size][/color]
[b][color=#000000][size=3][b]b.[/b] The player has made a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"]stroke[/url][/i] at a [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Provisional-Ball"]provisional ball[/url][/i] from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the [i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hole"]hole[/url][/i] than that place (see Rule [url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-2b"]27-2b[/url]); or[/size][/color][/b][/b]
[/quote]

Does that mean if my provisional obviously doesn't go as far as my original did, I can take a 2nd shot (or even 3rd if I flub both of those), and still play the original if found? I would have thought a 2nd stroke with a provisional regardless of where it ended up would put that one in play, but I guess it makes sense in that you look for your original ball as you're traveling to the provisional.
[/quote]

Yes. You have to be careful though...if your original ball is past the hole and you play a provisional ball from closer to the hole than where your original ball is likely to be from in front of the hole, then your provisional ball is the ball in play even if you then find the original.

Not a big fan of that aspect of the rule because it could potentially slow play...but how often would that scenario actually ever play out? <shrug>

[Girevik]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1381261165' post='7971601']
Yes. You have to be careful though...if your original ball is past the hole and you play a provisional ball from closer to the hole than where your original ball is likely to be from in front of the hole, then your provisional ball is the ball in play even if you then find the original.
[/quote]

Who decides where the original ball is "likely" to be, and if you are currently closer?

And what about a case where do something like blade a chip shot that shoots past the green and into bushes or something? If your original location is already closer to the hole than where it "likely" ended up, can you basically not take a provisional here?

Sorry if these are stuid questions, but I'd rather be stupid here than on the course.

[4Wedges]

You do, and a measurement does.

I know...a pain, but it came up in a thread not too long ago here. I thought it was a bit over the top considering the purpose of the provisional is to save time...but it's one instance where it would actually take longer because you first have to go to where the ball is likely to be and search (for up to 5 minutes) and then go back to play the provisional. Not a huge time loss...but one still.

I'm afraid I don't understand the scenario you're trying to ask about. Could you explain further please?

[Girevik]

Ok, let me try to give an example of senario two.

Let's say I'm just off the edge of the green, which is surrounded by brush. As I try to chip onto the green, I blade the shot (as I'm quite prone to do), and the ball shoots over the green into the brush behind. Maybe it's right at the edge, and maybe it went in...I'm not sure. But it's DEFFINATELY further away form the pin than I am now. In this case there really is no "provisional" since I'm already closer to the pin that where my first ball ended up, right? I either need to go look for it first, or just assume it's lost (since we've already established I can't DECLARE it lost), and hit a new ball, right?

[WilCox]

The hole was over when he putted out. Go to next tee.

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381331660' post='7975587']
Ok, let me try to give an example of senario two.

Let's say I'm just off the edge of the green, which is surrounded by brush. As I try to chip onto the green, I blade the shot (as I'm quite prone to do), and the ball shoots over the green into the brush behind. Maybe it's right at the edge, and maybe it went in...I'm not sure. But it's DEFFINATELY further away form the pin than I am now. In this case there really is no "provisional" since I'm already closer to the pin that where my first ball ended up, right? I either need to go look for it first, or just assume it's lost (since we've already established I can't DECLARE it lost), and hit a new ball, right?
[/quote]

Yes, you've got it right, that's what you do.

It's a lot easier time-wise to check out your bladed chip than your 250 yard drive. And beyond that, I wouldn't want the rules to allow you to see how close you chipped your provisional before you decided whether to search for your ball in the bush. It's bad enough that we get to make that choice on a long shot.

Edit: I was wrong, see post #42.

[smeech8000]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1381331978' post='7975639']
Yes, you've got it right, that's what you do.

It's a lot easier time-wise to check out your bladed chip than your 250 yard drive. And beyond that, I wouldn't want the rules to allow you to see how close you chipped your provisional [b]before you decided whether to search for your ball in the bush.[/b] It's bad enough that we get to make that choice on a long shot.
[/quote]

True, that's your own choice when playing alone, but if you're in my group I'm looking for (and finding) that thing.

I don't care if we're playing for money or not... Schadenfreude FTW

[4Wedges]

[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381331660' post='7975587']
Ok, let me try to give an example of senario two.

Let's say I'm just off the edge of the green, which is surrounded by brush. As I try to chip onto the green, I blade the shot (as I'm quite prone to do), and the ball shoots over the green into the brush behind. Maybe it's right at the edge, and maybe it went in...I'm not sure. But it's DEFFINATELY further away form the pin than I am now. In this case there really is no "provisional" since I'm already closer to the pin that where my first ball ended up, right? I either need to go look for it first, or just assume it's lost (since we've already established I can't DECLARE it lost), and hit a new ball, right?
[/quote]

Correct, you've no choice in that scenario but to put another ball into play.

[KevCarter]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1381332599' post='7975717']
[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381331660' post='7975587']
Ok, let me try to give an example of senario two.

Let's say I'm just off the edge of the green, which is surrounded by brush. As I try to chip onto the green, I blade the shot (as I'm quite prone to do), and the ball shoots over the green into the brush behind. Maybe it's right at the edge, and maybe it went in...I'm not sure. But it's DEFFINATELY further away form the pin than I am now. In this case there really is no "provisional" since I'm already closer to the pin that where my first ball ended up, right? I either need to go look for it first, or just assume it's lost (since we've already established I can't DECLARE it lost), and hit a new ball, right?
[/quote]

Correct, you've no choice in that scenario but to put another ball into play.
[/quote]

That doesn't sound right to me, but I could be wrong. See signature. :-)

He absolutely can just put another ball in play via stroke and distance. I'm just not sure that he is not allowed the option of playing a provisional...

[Girevik]

[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1381332599' post='7975717']

Correct, you've no choice in that scenario but to put another ball into play.
[/quote]

I don't have the option to find my original ball and play it? Or do you mean that once I play a 2nd ball it becomes the one in play regardless of whether I find the first ball.

And I agree with smeech on the issue of finding the ball. It shouldn't be up to me (and how good my provisional shot was) as to whether or not I look for the ball. I would think the ball should be searched for in good faith, and if found played regardless of where the provisional ended up.

[gambit]

[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381334177' post='7975841']
[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1381332599' post='7975717']
Correct, you've no choice in that scenario but to put another ball into play.
[/quote]

[b]I don't have the option to find my original ball and play it? Or do you mean that once I play a 2nd ball it becomes the one in play regardless of whether I find the first ball[/b].

And I agree with smeech on the issue of finding the ball. It shouldn't be up to me (and how good my provisional shot was) as to whether or not I look for the ball. I would think the ball should be searched for in good faith, and if found played regardless of where the provisional ended up.
[/quote]

I think he means you can't play a provisional in that situation. Either hit it out of the brush or deem it as unplayable and take stroke and distance.

Thanks to everyone for clarifying.

[Newby]

[color=#000000][size=3]If a ball may be [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Lost-Ball"]lost[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] outside a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Water-Hazard"]water hazard[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] or may be [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Out-Of-Bounds"]out of bounds[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3], to save time the player [/size][/color][b][color=#ff0000][size=3]may play another ball provisionally[/size][/color][/b][color=#000000][size=3] in accordance with Rule [/size][/color][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Rule-27/#27-1"]27-[/url]1
(No ifs or buts)

Until that ball has been put into play it is not a provisional.

[color=#ff0000][size=3] If he makes a [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Stroke"][color=#ff0000]stroke[/color][/url][/i][color=#ff0000][size=3] with the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Provisional-Ball"][color=#ff0000]provisional ball[/color][/url][color=#ff0000] [/color][/i][color=#000000][size=3]from the place where the original ball is likely to be or from a point nearer the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Hole"]hole[/url] [/i][color=#000000][size=3]than that place, the original ball is [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Lost-Ball"]lost[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] and the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Provisional-Ball"]provisional ball[/url][/i][color=#000000][size=3] becomes the [/size][/color][i][url="http://www.usga.org/Rule-Books/Rules-of-Golf/Definitions/#Ball-In-Play"]ball in play[/url][/i]

The above relates to playing the ball once it has become the provisional. So in this case a provisional may be played immediately after the original was thinned over the back of the green.

[jlbos83]

[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381334177' post='7975841']
[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1381332599' post='7975717']
Correct, you've no choice in that scenario but to put another ball into play.
[/quote]

I don't have the option to find my original ball and play it? Or do you mean that once I play a 2nd ball it becomes the one in play regardless of whether I find the first ball.

And I agree with smeech on the issue of finding the ball. It shouldn't be up to me (and how good my provisional shot was) as to whether or not I look for the ball. I would think the ball should be searched for in good faith, and if found played regardless of where the provisional ended up.
[/quote]

This has been discussed many times. There is no requirement, written or unwritten, that you must look for the original ball.

I believe in the case of hitting the ball across the green, you may play the first shot with the provisional from a point nearer the hole than the original is likely to be. I think it would be similar to hitting a tee marker off the tee and bouncing back in to the woods behind you. In my reading, the contitions on when the provisional becomes in play apply after the initial stoke with that ball. I think the verbal gymnastics to get to that point might be that the ball isn't a provisional ball until after the first stroke. Though the rules might not have been written thinking about that possibility.

[brianV]

It happens. The clarifications concerning provisional balls above are all correct.

I have this about once a game. Although usually I only find my ball because I am working the neighbouring fairway on the next hole...

[4Wedges]

[quote name='Girevik' timestamp='1381334177' post='7975841']
[quote name='4Wedges' timestamp='1381332599' post='7975717']
Correct, you've no choice in that scenario but to put another ball into play.
[/quote]

I don't have the option to find my original ball and play it? Or do you mean that once I play a 2nd ball it becomes the one in play regardless of whether I find the first ball.

And I agree with smeech on the issue of finding the ball. It shouldn't be up to me (and how good my provisional shot was) as to whether or not I look for the ball. I would think the ball should be searched for in good faith, and if found played regardless of where the provisional ended up.
[/quote]

Sorry, yes, you can look for your original ball for five minutes, then you have to put another ball into play. You wouldn't be able to play a provisional because you're already closer to the hole.

There is no requirement for you to look for your original ball. You can put another ball into play at any time at a cost of stroke and distance. But if someone else looks for and finds a ball where your ball is likely to be, you are required to identify the ball as yours or not if within the five minutes. If you find your original ball in play within five minutes, your provisional is abandoned.