Instructional threads disappointment

[eightiron]

[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382139341' post='8023901']
If mods choose to delete this so be it, but feel this needs to be said- what happened to this section of the forum? I recall a point in the not too distant past when differing ideas on instuction and instructors could be discussed with civilty and without personal insults or even passive aggressive behavior. Now it seems that members and even those who profess to want to help improve their games seem to have forgotten how to conduct themselves with a modicum of decorum and choose to air differences in public manner and even resort to personal insults when philosophy is questioned, even if the questioning is lacking class in manner of approach. Hope this improves and class, respect, and civility upon which site was founded returns post haste before many here decide to go elsewhere.
[/quote]

The main issue is the content of the threads , most of them are not even close to good instruction and when the hard questions get asked the problems arise . The guru to save face either stands firm or diverts the subject and the followers go on the offensive to back them up

[HappyGolf]

The OP....



[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382139341' post='8023901']
I recall a point in the not too distant past when differing ideas on instuction and instructors could be discussed with civilty and without personal insults or even passive aggressive behavior. Now it seems that members and even those who profess to want to help improve their games seem to have forgotten how to conduct themselves with a modicum of decorum and choose to air differences in public manner and even resort to personal insults when philosophy is questioned
[/quote]


but not long until we get.......


[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382170389' post='8025457']
Obviously reading comprehension and spelling are not your strongest areas as you have so admirably demonstrated here......
[/quote]

A topic about threads falling off the rails.......then falls off the rails and gets all 'personal' and 'insulting'.

You'd have to see it to believe it!!

[pingfool]

[quote name='HappyGolf' timestamp='1382184943' post='8025683']
The OP....



[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382139341' post='8023901']
I recall a point in the not too distant past when differing ideas on instuction and instructors could be discussed with civilty and without personal insults or even passive aggressive behavior. Now it seems that members and even those who profess to want to help improve their games seem to have forgotten how to conduct themselves with a modicum of decorum and choose to air differences in public manner and even resort to personal insults when philosophy is questioned
[/quote]


but not long until we get.......


[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382170389' post='8025457']
Obviously reading comprehension and spelling are not your strongest areas as you have so admirably demonstrated here......
[/quote]

A topic about threads falling off the rails.......then falls off the rails and gets all 'personal' and 'insulting'.

You'd have to see it to believe it!!
[/quote]

stirring it up....productive way to a "happy" solution

[Poser]

[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382170389' post='8025457']
Obviously reading comprehension and spelling are not your strongest areas as you have so admirably demonstrated here by citing a perceived slight in a topic that was closed due to negativity you fostered[b]. The individual mashing cartrydge (cartilage)[/b] quoted my earlier post in thread(not me), the only wine (whine) is coming from you, and only complaint about the mods is also coming from your posts as actually asked mods to monitor or close this thread as necessary well before you started spewing your vitriol to avoid any negativity as that was not my intention. I guess in your world, that makes me a hypocrite although that certainly does not fit any reasonable definition I can find. Last point, while looking up that definition perhaps you should look up another word, 'analogy' as the usage of reference about wolves did not even come close to a rational thought.
[/quote]

It's cartridge spelled with a y.... Seriously attacking someone for their grammar on an internet forum? What's next attacking text messages.

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cartridge_%28firearms%29"]http://en.wikipedia....idge_(firearms)[/url]

On a different note the reason I called him out is because I can't stand liars and in the military we are taught integrity and honesty. Many chose to rope me as the bad guy and all I did was present the evidence and BS. I thought Golf was based on the same fundamentals but, the internet boards seem to have a different take. Guess I can't move in in the fairway but, I can put down a 3 instead of a 5 anyday.

[ej002]

Funny thing is there was a thread calling out the so called self imposed gurus a while back. But it got locked.

The point being is there are knowledgable people here, there are also spectrums of instructors. If you are going to post here everyone has a right to challenge you. So when someone starts a thread can you believe he drivel that has been posted on here lately - the goofy theories should be discussed, bc then maybe the truth will come out.

If you have a bunch of guys being respectful and keeping their mouth shut, the Sblack thing happens. He goes on to over run the forum with some nonsense. Sure he is a nice guy and put forth his time, but I am certain he messed up as many as he helped. Now he is outed, Dan cleared some things up and everyone is upset . Guess what the wool was pulled over your eyes, and if you are upset, it's still covering them wake up.

And if this was going to be run like the bst it would turn into the Hogan forum. A ghost town. Great idea that was, let's overrule that so everyone disperses and now comes in this forum. Great idea. This is a pretty busy area of the forum so I hope they don't do that.

Only allowing instructors to post? How would we ask questions? How would we call bullxxxx when a Jim Flip wannabe comes on here or even sblack?

Grow some skin... Learn something. It is FREE.

[Schnee]

I think deleting the thread wasn't necessarily the best thing to do. I didn't get a chance to read the thread recently so I don't know exactly how heated it got, but in my case, I didn't get to see Dan's response/clarification. Whoever made the point about people wanting everything quick and free is an important one in my opinion. When I first joined here I followed people's advice blindly. Now I know that information here is like political discourse: there's often misinformation, biases, or misinterpretations. That being said, I feel I have a better understanding of the golf swing because of my missteps and misunderstandings. By deleting the thread, yes it got rid of the bad image that the arguments portrayed, but it probably left some people (like myself) without the criticism of why the information wasn't appropriate or correct. I'm not condoning the actions of any of the parties but debate shouldn't be cut off because people get offended, and likewise, posters shouldn't act like bulls in china shops.

[Hawkeye77]

I understand why threads get locked, but don't agree threads should be deleted. Just because you start one shouldn't allow some sort of "ownership" to the point where you can erase others' responses. Forums have a self-policing aspect as well, and we should be free to evaluate the content. Individual posts that cross the line are cleaned up from time to time, that should be enough "censorship".

As much as I am on here, can't believe I missed the episode in question. Looks like some are still piling on and a little too proud of their detective work. I won't comment because I can't evaluate the thread, but I sure feel based on the weight of content sblack is a good person, so let's hope for a positive resolution.

Instructors that are generous enough to post are always going to be targets. We've had guys who really seem like nice guys go out of their way to personally attack a particular instructor on here simply because the new lesson with the "hotter" instructor made something click. We've had flat out nuts with hidden agendas attacking instructors, posting endless video/drivel. It's easy to get caught up in the excitement of discovery (and occasionally psychotic trolling).

Mostly, what I see is some quality instructors sharing ideas, and I'll bet 90%+ of the posts/threads reporting on a lesson with Monte, Geoff, Martin, Dan, Jim are positive, so there's the proof in the credibility pudding.

[jurr80]

The instructors who come on the site and give away free information are to be commended for their selflessness.
Guys all over the world with less teaching ability go out and make E-books and subscription sites in an effort to do one thing, and that is to turn a profit.
Some instructors care enough about people getting joy from golf improvement that they go out of their way to clear up the finer details of the swing. They WANT us to get better.

At the end of the day, though, the really good instructors know that without the feel component, vast improvement may not ever come.
I can read Encyclopedia Texarkana until the cows come home, but I might be misinterpreting setup angles.
I go to the range, work my tail off, and don't improve.
I make a trip to see the author himself, he manually places me into the proper setup, and my brain wakes up.
I now KNOW what is correct, because I have felt it. Later, I will need to return to the instructor to get the next feel that breaks through another plateau in the swing.

Without a forum to discuss ideas, though, we may never have known who Geoff Jones, Monte, Dan Carraher, Martin Chuck, or any of these other guys were. It's up to the reader to determine who he agrees with on swing theory and then go seek those guys out.

As students of the golf swing, we would be wise to make this environment as comfortable as possible for these guys.
It could begin a teaching relationship that will really blossom into something great for a specific student.
You're probably not going to reach your goals by reading about a swing thought. It is the process of reading those thoughts and then seeking out the teacher to get the feel. The less talented instructors will show themselves through the process.

At the end of the day, these instructors are taking the time to post because they have passion for what they do.
Making a student better is their main focus, and they get a buzz from getting feedback regarding improvement.

That passion seldom goes unrewarded, and these guys get the benefit of students flying in from all corners of the world for lessons.

I would hate to see such a valuable platform for teachers AND students get ripped apart because of ungrateful students and petty instructors who are trying to climb the ranks by stepping on the heads of others.

[mikpga]

[quote name='nochrome' timestamp='1382139341' post='8023901']
If mods choose to delete this so be it, but feel this needs to be said- what happened to this section of the forum? I recall a point in the not too distant past when differing ideas on instuction and instructors could be discussed with civilty and without personal insults or even passive aggressive behavior. Now it seems that members and even those who profess to want to help improve their games seem to have forgotten how to conduct themselves with a modicum of decorum and choose to air differences in public manner and even resort to personal insults when philosophy is questioned, even if the questioning is lacking class in manner of approach. Hope this improves and class, respect, and civility upon which site was founded returns post haste before many here decide to go elsewhere.
[/quote]

We can be hopeful...

Be quick to listen...

Slow to speak...

Slow to anger...

[lv_2_hack]

I know for me, I've given lessons or played since college. I've loved golfwrx both to learn more about different methods and help at times with my swing. I've learned a ton from Putter and other trackman guys that would have taken me much longer to learn on my own.

Wrx has helped me increase lessons from members on here from Oklahoma as well as people wanting online lessons. I have no problem defending my stance on anything I post on here. I'm also really careful to post anything that can be attacked due to how quickly the cult can turn on you or how you'll end up fighting credibility battles with a member or 2.

I can speak for every instructor that's ever posted here, we all LOVE to help. And WRX has definitely helped all of us back, especially the bigger named guys (Geoff, Dan C, Monte, Martin) to increase business.

It sounds like this a vicious cycle that we can't fix. Teachers stick around until they get tired of being questioned and new ones come up. I love the idea of some type of rating system but others don't seem to think it will work. I also have no problem putting my name out there, but I think traffic will slow down rather quickly.

[Tanner25]

[quote name='lv_2_hack' timestamp='1382195515' post='8026175']
I know for me, I've given lessons or played since college. I've loved golfwrx both to learn more about different methods and help at times with my swing. I've learned a ton from Putter and other trackman guys that would have taken me much longer to learn on my own.

Wrx has helped me increase lessons from members on here from Oklahoma as well as people wanting online lessons. I have no problem defending my stance on anything I post on here. I'm also really careful to post anything that can be attacked due to how quickly the cult can turn on you or how you'll end up fighting credibility battles with a member or 2.

I can speak for every instructor that's ever posted here, we all LOVE to help. And WRX has definitely helped all of us back, especially the bigger named guys (Geoff, Dan C, Monte, Martin) to increase business.

It sounds like this a vicious cycle that we can't fix. Teachers stick around until they get tired of being questioned and new ones come up. I love the idea of some type of rating system but others don't seem to think it will work. I also have no problem putting my name out there, but I think traffic will slow down rather quickly.
[/quote]

lv_2_hack,

Your posts have been great, have been appreciated and have added lots of value here. Thanks. It is also interesting to know other pros and plain WRX'ers can add value/enjoyment to you and other pros as well. Keep the posts coming!

Tanner

[AndyC]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1382151165' post='8024871']
I have an idea, why not take a poll to find out how and who actually teaches golf as a profession to live people and gets paid for it? That would be an easy way to differentiate teaching pros from good intentioned amateurs.[/quote]

I have seen so many poor teaching pros in action that I certainly wouldn't be assuming that they were any more knowledgeable than a well intentioned amateur. Most of the pros I know aren't nearly as passionate about enhancing their knowledge of golf as the good intentioned amateurs found on the internet.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='Tanner25' timestamp='1382196154' post='8026217']


lv_2_hack,

Your posts have been great, have been appreciated and have added lots of value here. Thanks. It is also interesting to know other pros and plain WRX'ers can add value/enjoyment to you and other pros as well. Keep the posts coming!

Tanner
[/quote]

Thanks for kind words. Will do.

[MonteScheinblum]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1382196621' post='8026241']
I have seen so many poor teaching pros in action that I certainly wouldn't be assuming that they were any more knowledgeable than a well intentioned amateur. Most of the pros I know aren't nearly as passionate about enhancing their knowledge of golf as the good intentioned amateurs found on the internet.
[/quote]

Agree. The average Golfwrx regular is more educated than the average teaching pro.

[lv_2_hack]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1382196621' post='8026241']
[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1382151165' post='8024871']
I have an idea, why not take a poll to find out how and who actually teaches golf as a profession to live people and gets paid for it? That would be an easy way to differentiate teaching pros from good intentioned amateurs.[/quote]

I have seen so many poor teaching pros in action that I certainly wouldn't be assuming that they were any more knowledgeable than a well intentioned amateur. Most of the pros I know aren't nearly as passionate about enhancing their knowledge of golf as the good intentioned amateurs found on the internet.
[/quote]

Andy- I agree with your 'continuing to learn' comment. Teaching pro's that aren't trying to learn each year are failing their students. There isn't ONE superior method. I have much more respect for the guys pursuing other instructors/methods to advance their knowledge.

[Soloman1]

I like discussions; I can learn from them. I don't like debates because the object of a debate is to win at all cost, not to find the truth or correct answer to the proposition.

"Heated debates" aren't really healthy, they're just arguments in disguise.

Probably only 20% of any thread is wheat, the rest is chaff. But that's true of most forums.

Golf and the golf swing are almost infinite topics. People have been successful doing it many different ways; however, handicaps haven't really changed over time. There are no ways to hide in golf. Something works or it doesn't. Some people can do it well and some people can't, no matter how many balls they hit. There is no affirmative action in golf. It's a cruel test of reality in a world filled with dreamers.

But, for many, the [i]joy[/i] of golf is the trying, the dream, the rare excellent shot that's branded into memory and not the dozens of mediocre shots in between.

[puttingmatt]

I actually enjoy the instructional threads. I find these threads offer a ton of
useful information. The videos offer a clear idea of what the presenter
is talking about. When my rounds go a south, I can always find a useful
topic on these boards. Let me personally say thank you to all who have taken
the time to express these swing thoughts and videos on this game !!

[JBOMB808]

You don't need accreditation to teach golf so that will of course lead to MANY different opinions. Everyone can share information for free.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1382196621' post='8026241']


I have seen so many poor teaching pros in action that I certainly wouldn't be assuming that they were any more knowledgeable than a well intentioned amateur. Most of the pros I know aren't nearly as passionate about enhancing their knowledge of golf as the good intentioned amateurs found on the internet.
[/quote]
Andy, I am in agreement with you. My comment wasn't implying golf instructors should be the only ones posting, more so just some degree of differentiation to potentially deter the antagonists on this site. Probably wouldn't make a shred of a difference. Certain instructors are more recognizable than others on the wrx, but any instructor who gives away free advice and posts with any regularity has to have some degree of passion about the game and becoming better at what they do. Most pros would rather sell lesson packages than spend time in online forums helping, discussing, debating and enriching their own knowledge database.

[Evil Ecstasy]

You guys are really naive if you dont care how good the person is that you getting your info from. Everyone thinks they know how to swing a golf club, but only a few can prove that they can. Someone might think they have good info but if they arent a good golfer then theres probably holes in their thinking somewhere. One of the nice things about monte is that he can prove it, I know he can go out and shoot very low scores on a consistent basis in a tournament setting. On a bad day for him he still shot 77 for a US open qualifier. But for others that people have revered on this site the same cannot be said.

I mean i feel like I have the golf swing theoretically figured out, but im a hack so I dont say a word. Its not my place.

[ej002]

[quote name='MonteScheinblum' timestamp='1382197113' post='8026283']


Agree. The average Golfwrx regular is more educated than the average teaching pro.
[/quote]

And why is that? Because there is excellent discourse here. The guys here probably have more understanding if multiple theories than the average guy too. It's hard to have the challenge debate without guys gettig worked up.

[dairic]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1382184566' post='8025673']


The main issue is the content of the threads , most of them are not even close to good instruction and when the hard questions get asked the problems arise . The guru to save face either stands firm or diverts the subject and the followers go on the offensive to back them up
[/quote]

Yep. I remember when you challenged Jim Waldron on the arm swing illusion, it basically went nowhere because it was seen as offensive. It could have spawned a great discussion, but died because opposing views are considered not in good taste around here.

I still think that those threads where there's friction are the best threads because those debating are asked to support their argument with evidence rather than arguing from authority.

[Mitchell]

Obviously I touched on a very delicate subject here. My original intent was to attempt to encourage others to think critically about posting and possibly start a discussion about how issues could be remedied. Cartrydge, my comment in other thread was quoted by someone else and then their negative reply added so was not fully aware of context or background of history where you were mentioned, or even that you were involved in other thread since was not directing comments towards you- have no problem with you and if offended you, I am man enough to apologize. The fact that I allowed myself to get so frustrated and respond so negatively when attacked for this effort (please note that numerous posts of others were removed) leads me to believe that further participation in this topic on my part would be counterproductive and as such I will not respond further.

[Hawkeye77]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1382205717' post='8026797']


Yep. I remember when you challenged Jim Waldron on the arm swing illusion, it basically went nowhere because it was seen as offensive. It could have spawned a great discussion, but died because opposing views are considered not in good taste around here.

I still think that those threads where there's friction are the best threads because those debating are asked to support their argument with evidence rather than arguing from authority.
[/quote]

Not sure that is the best example of someone challenging in a respectful way and supporting argument with evidence. More like trying to pick a fight and not letting it go.

[AndyC]

[quote name='PutterKilledTheDream' timestamp='1382203144' post='8026681']Andy, I am in agreement with you. My comment wasn't implying golf instructors should be the only ones posting, more so just some degree of differentiation to potentially deter the antagonists on this site. Probably wouldn't make a shred of a difference. Certain instructors are more recognizable than others on the wrx, but any instructor who gives away free advice and posts with any regularity has to have some degree of passion about the game and becoming better at what they do. Most pros would rather sell lesson packages than spend time in online forums helping, discussing, debating and enriching their own knowledge database.
[/quote]

Yes, I would certainly agree that instructors who post here or on other forums are most likely in the passionate category. What I have also found is that teachers who post here are getting free advertising. A teacher can build quite a following from these forums and enhance their business greatly. Would so many people be traveling to Florida to see Dan, to Texas to see Slicefixer or to California to see Monte if not for this and other forums?

My problem with your proposed poll was that it implied that there is a big knowledge gap between teachers and non-teachers. Generally, I haven't found that to be true, so from my perspective I don't need to know. To me, it is refreshing to see a little blowback to the instructors questioning methods, ideas, etc. as opposed to just blind acceptance. What I will add to my previous comment is that while many may have considerable golf swing knowledge the ability to teach doesn't necessarily follow the knowledge.

[jlo]

Information is cheap.

Insight is priceless.

That being said some of the best teachers were not the greatest players in their respective sports.

In fact most of them.

If a 20 handicapper gives me some insight that unlocks my swing, that is worth more than a 1000 dollar lesson from Butch Harmon
if the results speak for themselves.

[Sean2]

[quote name='wmblake2000' timestamp='1382151962' post='8024933']
I don't mind arguing and confusing or contradictory stuff. That's golf. It's the arrogance that kills me and the condescending tone that comes the way of every successful teacher here by a few who seem to me to be jealous.
[/quote]

I don't know. Why not ignore those posters/comments? Instead of rising to their "bait" simply don't acknowledge what they say?

Don't engage in drama. Don't let yourself be sucked in. Honest discussion is good. But the other stuff? It's not worth it.

[Sean2]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1382205717' post='8026797']

Yep. I remember when you challenged Jim Waldron on the arm swing illusion, it basically went nowhere because it was seen as offensive. It could have spawned a great discussion, but died because opposing views are considered not in good taste around here.

I still think that those threads where there's friction are the best threads because those debating are asked to support their argument with evidence rather than arguing from authority.
[/quote]

Opposing views are fine...it's just in many cases people get defensive and they become emotionally charged...and we all know where that leads.

[PutterKilledTheDream]

[quote name='AndyC' timestamp='1382207080' post='8026867']

Yes, I would certainly agree that instructors who post here or on other forums are most likely in the passionate category. What I have also found is that teachers who post here are getting free advertising. A teacher can build quite a following from these forums and enhance their business greatly. Would so many people be traveling to Florida to see Dan, to Texas to see Slicefixer or to California to see Monte if not for this and other forums?

My problem with your proposed poll was that it implied that there is a big knowledge gap between teachers and non-teachers. Generally, I haven't found that to be true, so from my perspective I don't need to know. To me, it is refreshing to see a little blowback to the instructors questioning methods, ideas, etc. as opposed to just blind acceptance. What I will add to my previous comment is that while many may have considerable golf swing knowledge the ability to teach doesn't necessarily follow the knowledge.
[/quote]
Absolutely true. Anybody can call themselves an instructor, but generally speaking, like any other business, the amount of clients on the books, referrals and repeat customers weed out who makes it and who doesn't. I'm all for debate and different perspectives but blowback is different than questioning credentials and challenging credibility. It's easy to be an Ahole when your livelihood isn't at stake or in question.

[wmblake2000]

[quote name='Sean2' timestamp='1382210008' post='8027029']
er good teacher
I don't know. Why not ignore those posters/comments? Instead of rising to their "bait" simply don't acknowledge what they say?

Don't engage in drama. Don't let yourself be sucked in. Honest discussion is good. But the other stuff? It's not worth it.
[/quote]

For me personally, I really don't engage with people I don't want or where there's not much worthwhile. But when I see good teacher after good teacher face usually the same 1-2-3 guys who have been said their piece and persist while the community has clearly said "enough, you're just being a pain in the butt" - these guys need to be banned. Quickly.