Issacbm swing advice

[gr8blueheronbird]

[quote name='fore_life' timestamp='1384516408' post='8152346']
I use Mobilitywod.com, a foam roller, and a lacross ball to hit some painful areas and increase mobility. Might be worth looking at.
[/quote]If you have a chance, research "the Miracle Ball Method". Its about $11.00. 2 small inflatable balls that you can use on most parts of your back and body. I use it every day and they are very effective in getting the muscles stretched that need to be worked. Lower back, Mid back, and neck as well as other areas. This method could provide immediate relief but over time, they work wonders. It was a great solution to my back pains. They also give you ideas on how to breath better which will help with overall health,

[BdaGolfer]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1384905230' post='8174516']
[quote name='BdaGolfer' timestamp='1384901474' post='8174246']
Isaacbm,
Do you work with a pro around here? I am looking for someone to have a couple of sessions with over the winter, if you have any recommendations (I'm in SW Calgary).

Cheers,
Alan
[/quote]I would recommend Tom Schupp at the Eagle Quest Dome but I think he's in South America on tour right now...
[/quote]

Thanks, I'll look him up. Is he from Ontario? There was a guy by that name who is a former club champ at my last club; that would be a strange coincidence indeed!

Edit: looked online, and it is him. Small world!

[isaacbm]

[quote name='BdaGolfer' timestamp='1384959048' post='8177398']
[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1384905230' post='8174516']
[quote name='BdaGolfer' timestamp='1384901474' post='8174246']
Isaacbm,
Do you work with a pro around here? I am looking for someone to have a couple of sessions with over the winter, if you have any recommendations (I'm in SW Calgary).

Cheers,
Alan
[/quote]I would recommend Tom Schupp at the Eagle Quest Dome but I think he's in South America on tour right now...
[/quote]



Thanks, I'll look him up. Is he from Ontario? There was a guy by that name who is a former club champ at my last club; that would be a strange coincidence indeed!

Edit: looked online, and it is him. Small world!
[/quote]yup he's from Ontario. Worked for foley for awhile and he has quite a keen understanding of the swing.
Played with him. 5 or. 6 times this summer and he was in the. 60's every time. I personally find it easier to listen to someone that can apply their own methods to a high degree...

[BdaGolfer]

I've heard some good stuff about him from guys on a Toronto forum when he was over that way with Foley/Conor O'Shea. I will certainly touch base and see what his schedule is like for the winter. I'm not looking for a lot of time, just the occasional check-in, so it may work. Cheers.

[BdaGolfer]

Isaacbm - spoke with Brad at Eaglequest, Tom is away with an unknown/uncertain return date. Anybody else you would recommend, either there, RCGA, NGA dome etc.?

Thanks.

[Thrillhouse]

[quote name='BdaGolfer' timestamp='1385160212' post='8192132']
Isaacbm - spoke with Brad at Eaglequest, Tom is away with an unknown/uncertain return date. Anybody else you would recommend, either there, RCGA, NGA dome etc.?

Thanks.
[/quote]

Todd halpen at rcga or Paul Horton at rcga, both really good.

[BdaGolfer]

[quote name='Thrillhouse' timestamp='1385160329' post='8192150']
[quote name='BdaGolfer' timestamp='1385160212' post='8192132']
Isaacbm - spoke with Brad at Eaglequest, Tom is away with an unknown/uncertain return date. Anybody else you would recommend, either there, RCGA, NGA dome etc.?

Thanks.
[/quote]

Todd halpen at rcga or Paul Horton at rcga, both really good.
[/quote]

Thanks Thrill. I was going to head over to RCGA this weekend anyway, so I'll see who's around and what I can set up.

[BTP]

As a trained physical therapist, "physio" to the Brits, a lot of which has been mentioned is proven to be effective, especially the use of foam rollers to provide myofascial release to the tissues. There are multiple stretches, a few of the links provided are good to perform. Not having a clue of your history is obviously impossible to pinpoint your case, so I am not even going to assume I know what the issue(s) is. I merely have a few pointers that, if you include them into your routine, may be beneficial in providing less pain on tight/overstretched/strained, whatever it may be, musculature.

One, which is very simple, is called the "drawing-in maneuver." Simply suck in approx. an inch from your belly button. This activates two of the main core stabilizing muscles, those little muscles that surround your spine. These muscles are activated with any movement. Drawing your stomach in about an inch helps to stabilize these little muscles and reduces strain on the lower lumbar spine musculature. Try to maintain this feeling of drawing the belly button in throughout your swing. It may feel annoying and tough to focus on your swing by doing this, but like anything, you learn by repetition (just like how your muscles have learned to "rewire" the way they have through repetition from golf and every day improper posture)! You will certainly feel less strain on your back when maintaining the belly button in throughout the golf swing.

There is a phenomenon in the body where when you flex a muscle(s) isometrically, the opposite side (in this example abdominals and lumbar stabilizing muscles) muscles shut off and/or are deactivated. It is known as antagonist co-contraction. This technique is worth a shot! Simple, yet effective. Just the way everything should be

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1385165475' post='8192674']


There is a phenomenon in the body where when you flex a muscle(s) isometrically, the opposite side (in this example abdominals and lumbar stabilizing muscles) muscles shut off and/or are deactivated. It is known as antagonist co-contraction. This technique is worth a shot! Simple, yet effective. Just the way everything should be
[/quote]
Would it make sense to say then, if one side gets stronger than the other that it could spiral from there as the "stabilizing" muscles on the strong side would be constantly working and shutting down the other side?

[BTP]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1385209377' post='8194706']
[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1385165475' post='8192674']
There is a phenomenon in the body where when you flex a muscle(s) isometrically, the opposite side (in this example abdominals and lumbar stabilizing muscles) muscles shut off and/or are deactivated. It is known as antagonist co-contraction. This technique is worth a shot! Simple, yet effective. Just the way everything should be
[/quote]
Would it make sense to say then, if one side gets stronger than the other that it could spiral from there as the "stabilizing" muscles on the strong side would be constantly working and shutting down the other side?
[/quote]

Yes, to some degree. The weaker muscles that are being "deactivated" (obviously you cannot entirely shut down a muscle function because we have a lot of slow twitch fibers that help keep us upright for example) are not functioning to their full capacity, therefore the golfer does not feel "limited" or as much pain because the shortened/overused muscles that they are used to feeling are not being utilized as much by the body.

Getting to the nitty gritty, the "stabilizing" muscles you are referring to are the "core" or centralized muscles. They are sort of like the control centers for your anterior/posterior musculature with a set on the anterior side and another on the posterior side. So, as you imply, if say the anterior (we'll say abdominal musculature, we know they're located anterior&laterally) is stronger than the paraspinals/erector spine musculature (located posterior&laterally) the "strong side" (abdominals) are firing more than the posterior musculature -- simply because they have worked out more and therefore your body's neuromuscular system is going to utilize the muscles that it can activate the easiest to complete the golf swing. The body wants to use the muscles it is supposed to use to complete a motion, but if it cannot because of weakness, neurological damage, or whatever it may be, it will utilize stronger/faster muscles that it can activate easier to compensate. That example, by the way, is not true to the majority of the golfing population. The vast majority of golfers have weaker abdominal musculature thus why so much back pain - the back muscles are compensating for the weaker anterior chain core muscles.

The bottomline is you have to have to address your muscle imbalances, and lets face it, we all have them. You have to strengthen your muscles that want to be utilized but cannot because of other muscles compensating for their lack of ability to perform when needed. The best way IMHO and through reading/studying entirely too many research articles, I have found that neuromuscular re-education exercises and activities do wonders in helping to "re-wire" the body. Use of bosu balls, medicine balls, all those funky gadgets that when you see people using them you say to yourself "Why? Just grab a barbell!" are so helpful in addressing muscle imbalances and helping the brain-body relationship in activating "turned-off" muscles. If one side of muscles is constantly working more, you have to address the muscles that are not being utilized because the body is being told they can't be used to get that job done! The best way to tell them to "wake up" is to re-educate the muscles.

[JPGolf FL]

[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1385219484' post='8195134']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1385209377' post='8194706']
[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1385165475' post='8192674']
There is a phenomenon in the body where when you flex a muscle(s) isometrically, the opposite side (in this example abdominals and lumbar stabilizing muscles) muscles shut off and/or are deactivated. It is known as antagonist co-contraction. This technique is worth a shot! Simple, yet effective. Just the way everything should be
[/quote]
Would it make sense to say then, if one side gets stronger than the other that it could spiral from there as the "stabilizing" muscles on the strong side would be constantly working and shutting down the other side?
[/quote]

Yes, to some degree. The weaker muscles that are being "deactivated" (obviously you cannot entirely shut down a muscle function because we have a lot of slow twitch fibers that help keep us upright for example) are not functioning to their full capacity, therefore the golfer does not feel "limited" or as much pain because the shortened/overused muscles that they are used to feeling are not being utilized as much by the body.

Getting to the nitty gritty, the "stabilizing" muscles you are referring to are the "core" or centralized muscles. They are sort of like the control centers for your anterior/posterior musculature with a set on the anterior side and another on the posterior side. So, as you imply, if say the anterior (we'll say abdominal musculature, we know they're located anterior&laterally) is stronger than the paraspinals/erector spine musculature (located posterior&laterally) the "strong side" (abdominals) are firing more than the posterior musculature -- simply because they have worked out more and therefore your body's neuromuscular system is going to utilize the muscles that it can activate the easiest to complete the golf swing. The body wants to use the muscles it is supposed to use to complete a motion, but if it cannot because of weakness, neurological damage, or whatever it may be, it will utilize stronger/faster muscles that it can activate easier to compensate. That example, by the way, is not true to the majority of the golfing population. The vast majority of golfers have weaker abdominal musculature thus why so much back pain - the back muscles are compensating for the weaker anterior chain core muscles.

The bottomline is you have to have to address your muscle imbalances, and lets face it, we all have them. You have to strengthen your muscles that want to be utilized but cannot because of other muscles compensating for their lack of ability to perform when needed. The best way IMHO and through reading/studying entirely too many research articles, I have found that neuromuscular re-education exercises and activities do wonders in helping to "re-wire" the body. Use of bosu balls, medicine balls, all those funky gadgets that when you see people using them you say to yourself "Why? Just grab a barbell!" are so helpful in addressing muscle imbalances and helping the brain-body relationship in activating "turned-off" muscles. If one side of muscles is constantly working more, you have to address the muscles that are not being utilized because the body is being told they can't be used to get that job done! The best way to tell them to "wake up" is to re-educate the muscles.
[/quote]
Good stuff.... For me, the muscles down the side of the torso, specifically between the bottom of the ribs and the top of the hip.... And the thick rope of a muscle that runs along the right side of the lumbar spine.... much stronger than the left. I have done a lot of psoas releasing on the right that has helped tremendously. But after 3 days in a row playing, the right side still gets tweaked and needs to be released/rested for a few days. Ideas? When they are tweaked, I can feel them constantly firing when I walk. I can make a conscious effort to relax them and it makes my right leg work hard to walk. Makes sense as my left leg is stronger than my right from years of left leg jumping in basketball and posting up in golf. Would I be right to assume I need a stronger right leg/glute as well as the other muscles I mentioned on the left? Not sure how to target the lumbar muscle on the left. Sorry for the laymens muscle descriptions.

[BTP]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1385222866' post='8195352']
[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1385219484' post='8195134']
[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1385209377' post='8194706']
[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1385165475' post='8192674']
There is a phenomenon in the body where when you flex a muscle(s) isometrically, the opposite side (in this example abdominals and lumbar stabilizing muscles) muscles shut off and/or are deactivated. It is known as antagonist co-contraction. This technique is worth a shot! Simple, yet effective. Just the way everything should be
[/quote]
Would it make sense to say then, if one side gets stronger than the other that it could spiral from there as the "stabilizing" muscles on the strong side would be constantly working and shutting down the other side?
[/quote]

Yes, to some degree. The weaker muscles that are being "deactivated" (obviously you cannot entirely shut down a muscle function because we have a lot of slow twitch fibers that help keep us upright for example) are not functioning to their full capacity, therefore the golfer does not feel "limited" or as much pain because the shortened/overused muscles that they are used to feeling are not being utilized as much by the body.

Getting to the nitty gritty, the "stabilizing" muscles you are referring to are the "core" or centralized muscles. They are sort of like the control centers for your anterior/posterior musculature with a set on the anterior side and another on the posterior side. So, as you imply, if say the anterior (we'll say abdominal musculature, we know they're located anterior&laterally) is stronger than the paraspinals/erector spine musculature (located posterior&laterally) the "strong side" (abdominals) are firing more than the posterior musculature -- simply because they have worked out more and therefore your body's neuromuscular system is going to utilize the muscles that it can activate the easiest to complete the golf swing. The body wants to use the muscles it is supposed to use to complete a motion, but if it cannot because of weakness, neurological damage, or whatever it may be, it will utilize stronger/faster muscles that it can activate easier to compensate. That example, by the way, is not true to the majority of the golfing population. The vast majority of golfers have weaker abdominal musculature thus why so much back pain - the back muscles are compensating for the weaker anterior chain core muscles.

The bottomline is you have to have to address your muscle imbalances, and lets face it, we all have them. You have to strengthen your muscles that want to be utilized but cannot because of other muscles compensating for their lack of ability to perform when needed. The best way IMHO and through reading/studying entirely too many research articles, I have found that neuromuscular re-education exercises and activities do wonders in helping to "re-wire" the body. Use of bosu balls, medicine balls, all those funky gadgets that when you see people using them you say to yourself "Why? Just grab a barbell!" are so helpful in addressing muscle imbalances and helping the brain-body relationship in activating "turned-off" muscles. If one side of muscles is constantly working more, you have to address the muscles that are not being utilized because the body is being told they can't be used to get that job done! The best way to tell them to "wake up" is to re-educate the muscles.
[/quote]
Good stuff.... For me, the muscles down the side of the torso, specifically between the bottom of the ribs and the top of the hip.... And the thick rope of a muscle that runs along the right side of the lumbar spine.... much stronger than the left. I have done a lot of psoas releasing on the right that has helped tremendously. But after 3 days in a row playing, the right side still gets tweaked and needs to be released/rested for a few days. Ideas? When they are tweaked, I can feel them constantly firing when I walk. I can make a conscious effort to relax them and it makes my right leg work hard to walk. Makes sense as my left leg is stronger than my right from years of left leg jumping in basketball and posting up in golf. Would I be right to assume I need a stronger right leg/glute as well as the other muscles I mentioned on the left? Not sure how to target the lumbar muscle on the left. Sorry for the laymens muscle descriptions.
[/quote]

That muscle specifically between the bottom of the ribs and top of the hip is known as the "quadratus lumborum." It is a tricky muscle. That thick rope like muscle located on the right side of the lumbar spine is the right paraspinal musculature. When they are "tweaked" they are in spasm. My advice is ice, ice, and more ice. Heat is effective in releasing muscle spasm, but ice is the most effective -- 20 minutes on, 1 hour rest, another 20 minutes ice application, and so on in this fashion.

That is good that you do psoas releasing, but perhaps that is not the only muscle that is giving you fits. The psoas works in congruency with the iliacus -- which are your primary hip flexors (iliopsoas). The whole lumbosacral junction gets complicated when figuring out which muscles are over compensating. With that being said, whenever "superior" muscles (anatomically speaking, muscles that are higher in location to the head on the totem pole) are over firing, it is usually because of distal muscles - further away from the point in origin - lack of strength/weakness, again, whatever is the cause of them not being able to do what they need to do. You are right in assuming that you need stronger right gluteus muscles as well as most likely shortened hamstrings. I will get in depth later as far as stretches, etc. For now, I'm going to hit the course!

[JPGolf FL]

Thanks man. You can pm me if you like so we don't hijack this thread.

[Jim Waldron]

Issac - I have been around the block with golf-related back issues, starting at age 10 with spinal scoliosis, and now in my 60's with degenerative disc disease and spondy issues. I have also conducted golf schools for folks who suffer with back issues and are struggling to find a way to keep on playing the game they love while remaining at least somewhat pain-free. As your excellent posts states, it can be a complicated and frustrating experience. The main reason is that there are many different causes of low back dysfunction, and oftentimes they are mis-diagnosed.

Obvviously you want to get an MRI to eliminate the possibility of a severe issue with nerve compression either from a bulging or herniated disc or spinal stenosis. If those have been eliminated, then make sure to check into spondy issues, or one vertabrae slipping forward, which can cause a lot of muscle spasm in response, which can really hurt your mobility. I have seen quite a few golf students with spondy that had gone un-diagnosed for years, if a level one especially, or slight amount of slippage. If you have osteoarthritis of the spine or degenerative disc disease, you can't do anything about the structural aspect, but stretching and muscle strengthening can compensate to a large degree.

I think most low back problems will fall into the muscle imbalance/tight fascia/muscle weakness realm that BTP is discussing so well here. It can be confusing to the golfer who is experiencing pain along the spine though since a deep muscle spasm can occur in a micro-second with a knife-like stabbing pain, so it is normal to think of this as having something to do with a structural defect in the spine.

Muscle/fascia issues oftentimes take a long road to full recovery, in my experience. A lot of daily rehab to get to where you want to be. Foam rollers do help, especially the kind with the snow tire like lugs, which tend to hit the trigger points more effectively. The S shaped hooks are also very effective for trigger point release. I usually start with an ice trigger point massage using a paper cup filled with water and then frozen. You can put the base of this ice cone on the floor and then lay on top of the cone and use your body weigtht to press down into the cone. The blend of pressure and cold is the most effective way to release the trigger point and muscle spasm. I will then follow up with the hook or foam roller to finish the job.

Long term, I have found three things that have helped me the most in my own back issues, and in many of my students. One - AIS, or Active Isolated Stretching method developed by Aaron Mattes from Sarasota. This is a great way to stretch tight fascis, using a strap for leverage. And you can have AIS done to you by a certified therapist, which I recommmend that you do first before attempting it on your own. Two, Pilates for core strength and alleviating muscle imbalances. The belly button in technique that BTP recommdend is an essential part of every Pilates exercise and part of my own Mid-Body Postural Brace for the golf swing. Again - do a few 90 minute private sessions one-on-one first before attending the group classes. I hear nothing but resounding positive feedback from my many golf students who have taken Pilates to help their back issues. Three, Rolfing or fascial re-structuring body work. Extremely effective for really fast restoration of fascia mobility.

Good luck, and you can PM me for more detailed info.

Jim

[isaacbm]

[quote name='JPGolf FL' timestamp='1385225598' post='8195550']
Thanks man. You can pm me if you like so we don't hijack this thread.
[/quote]not hijacking thread. Just the sort if info I was looking for.

[isaacbm]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1385228205' post='8195702']
Issac - I have been around the block with golf-related back issues, starting at age 10 with spinal scoliosis, and now in my 60's with degenerative disc disease and spondy issues. I have also conducted golf schools for folks who suffer with back issues and are struggling to find a way to keep on playing the game they love while remaining at least somewhat pain-free. As your excellent posts states, it can be a complicated and frustrating experience. The main reason is that there are many different causes of low back dysfunction, and oftentimes they are mis-diagnosed.

Obvviously you want to get an MRI to eliminate the possibility of a severe issue with nerve compression either from a bulging or herniated disc or spinal stenosis. If those have been eliminated, then make sure to check into spondy issues, or one vertabrae slipping forward, which can cause a lot of muscle spasm in response, which can really hurt your mobility. I have seen quite a few golf students with spondy that had gone un-diagnosed for years, if a level one especially, or slight amount of slippage. If you have osteoarthritis of the spine or degenerative disc disease, you can't do anything about the structural aspect, but stretching and muscle strengthening can compensate to a large degree.

I think most low back problems will fall into the muscle imbalance/tight fascia/muscle weakness realm that BTP is discussing so well here. It can be confusing to the golfer who is experiencing pain along the spine though since a deep muscle spasm can occur in a micro-second with a knife-like stabbing pain, so it is normal to think of this as having something to do with a structural defect in the spine.

Muscle/fascia issues oftentimes take a long road to full recovery, in my experience. A lot of daily rehab to get to where you want to be. Foam rollers do help, especially the kind with the snow tire like lugs, which tend to hit the trigger points more effectively. The S shaped hooks are also very effective for trigger point release. I usually start with an ice trigger point massage using a paper cup filled with water and then frozen. You can put the base of this ice cone on the floor and then lay on top of the cone and use your body weigtht to press down into the cone. The blend of pressure and cold is the most effective way to release the trigger point and muscle spasm. I will then follow up with the hook or foam roller to finish the job.

Long term, I have found three things that have helped me the most in my own back issues, and in many of my students. One - AIS, or Active Isolated Stretching method developed by Aaron Mattes from Sarasota. This is a great way to stretch tight fascis, using a strap for leverage. And you can have AIS done to you by a certified therapist, which I recommmend that you do first before attempting it on your own. Two, Pilates for core strength and alleviating muscle imbalances. The belly button in technique that BTP recommdend is an essential part of every Pilates exercise and part of my own Mid-Body Postural Brace for the golf swing. Again - do a few 90 minute private sessions one-on-one first before attending the group classes. I hear nothing but resounding positive feedback from my many golf students who have taken Pilates to help their back issues. Three, Rolfing or fascial re-structuring body work. Extremely effective for really fast restoration of fascia mobility.

Good luck, and you can PM me for more detailed info.

Jim
[/quote]

Great info. Anything you guys want to add in here is appreciated.
Original post was intended to address my back issues more then my actual swing. Should edit title maybe!

[BTP]

Hey, I found this helpful pdf file that lists very common upper and lower body muscular pathologies and imbalances and recommended stretches/exercises to address such muscular compensations. It even addresses strengthening the diaphragm...yes fellow golfers. The diaphragm is a muscle that needs work too. These are good activities to incorporate into your training as simple as many of them may be.

http://www.posturalrestoration.com/resources/dyn/files/1061897z9e8faaba/_fn/Golf_Reccomendations.pdf

[isaacbm]

[quote name='BTP' timestamp='1386648457' post='8276297']
Hey, I found this helpful pdf file that lists very common upper and lower body muscular pathologies and imbalances and recommended stretches/exercises to address such muscular compensations. It even addresses strengthening the diaphragm...yes fellow golfers. The diaphragm is a muscle that needs work too. These are good activities to incorporate into your training as simple as many of them may be.

[url="http://www.posturalrestoration.com/resources/dyn/files/1061897z9e8faaba/_fn/Golf_Reccomendations.pdf"]http://www.posturalr...omendations.pdf[/url]
[/quote]thank a lot! I'll look into the PDF

[tembolo1284]

So are you a contortionist yet?