Affordable high speed camera? How to select?

[thepinkbomber]

Any recommendations on decent high speed camera that could be on the affordable end? It is for indoor use. Have setup for side and DNL views just by changing my position not the camera so it can be fixed on the wall if needed. I have the monitor.

 

The camera I have catches basic things especially on moveaway and backswing but down swing, impact, and extension are too blurry.

 

How do you select a camera? Minimum number on of FPS? High def or not?

 

Thanks!

[thepinkbomber]

BTW, to save money I don't need V1. I can draw lines myself on the monitor. I do want it connected to the monitor versus a SD card where I need to keep swapping.

Price is relative. $250 I would buy now. $350 start thinking about it. $500 very expensive. Not sure if that locks me out of something decent.

[esketores]

http://philipbloom.net/2013/10/17/iphone5s/

Out of your (and my) price range...
http://petapixel.com/2013/09/24/edgertronic-small-affordable-super-slow-motion-camera/

[Huddy76]

Casio fh-20

[bph7]

Casio FH100 or FH20 from ebay /thread

[Hawkeye77]

Quick search and you will find giant Casio thread that pretty much covers it all.

[thepinkbomber]

Thanks.

Is it risky of buying used Casio Video cameras on thread/ebay?

[iteachgolf]

You can find some brand new in box but will be $500+

[JustTheTips]

What FPS and shutter speed does your current camera have? Things like the iPhone (or pretty much any modern camera) can do 120fps which is decent if you have a lot of light (think outdoors). You want to be able to see the exact moment of impact, which dimple was hit, and for it to be crystal clear you are talking a 5k camera. Your looking for more gross motions (i.e. the sequence, see when you start the release, leaning in or back,...) the iphone is fine.

[quote name='thepinkbomber' timestamp='1385288047' post='8198734']
Any recommendations on decent high speed camera that could be on the affordable end? It is for indoor use. Have setup for side and DNL views just by changing my position not the camera so it can be fixed on the wall if needed. I have the monitor.

The camera I have catches basic things especially on moveaway and backswing but down swing, impact, and extension are too blurry.

How do you select a camera? Minimum number on of FPS? High def or not?

Thanks!
[/quote]

[Redhaze737]

[color=#282828]"I do want it connected to the monitor versus a SD card where I need to keep swapping."[/color]

[color=#282828]I think this is a deal breaker for most cameras you will be looking at. I have a Panasonic PV-GS400 which I keep around to hook up to my laptop for instant feedback. Most of the new cameras have a card and no firewire. My 'normal' camera is the latest iPhone 5S. The slow motion tells me everything I need to know except precise face angle coming thru the ball. While this is a very important part of the puzzle, the ball will tell me what I did with the club face.[/color]

[thepinkbomber]

I am in the market for a new smart phone. Perhaps kill two birds one stone with iPhone 5s. Can I see the video on my ipad so its larger?

[thepinkbomber]

I compared 3 Casio models below - FH20,FH25, FH100. Website for compare = http://snapsort.com/compare. They are probably out of my price range unless I can get a quality one used.

I identified if they have 120fps and 240fps and what the corresponding resolution is. I think I need 120fps to see impact clear.

FH20 does not support 120fps. That leaves FH25 and FH100.

Boths support resolutions of 480P and 448x336 at 120fps. Seems low, but no idea.

QUESTION:
1. Are these resolutions good enough to see impact clearly on a computer monitor? I don't need to see the ball, just my old video camera gets very blurry and hard to see positions. For example at extension hard to see if left elbow breaks down a little since its so blurry.


Model Year Used $ New $ FPS Resolution
CasioFH20 2008 $415-860 $1,090 30fps 720p
no 120 fps
no 240 fps

Model Year Used $ New $ FPS Resolution
CasioFH25 2009 $525-800 $1,449 120fps 480p
120fps 448 x 336
240fps 448 x 336

Model Year Used $ New $ FPS Resolutions
CasioFH100 2010 $400 $987 120fps 480p
240fps 448 x 336

[iteachgolf]

Resolution is fine at 210fps on fh20. Blur isn't resolution issue. It's a shutter speed issue which is manually adjustable on the Casio's. You can get a new in box FH20 for $500-600 and no where near $1,000

[thepinkbomber]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1385326682' post='8200456']
Resolution is fine at 210fps on fh20. Blur isn't resolution issue. It's a shutter speed issue which is manually adjustable on the Casio's. You can get a new in box FH20 for $500-600 and no where near $1,000
[/quote]Thanks. Based on video comparison site I found above it doesn't show that the FH20 has 210fps or 240fps. only 30fps.

[iteachgolf]

Fh20 has 210, 420 and 1,000fps with full manual control though 210 is all you'd use for golf. I'm not basing this on a website. I have 4 Casio's including 2 that are brand new in the box and have been using then since 2008.

[Brian Manzella]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIYYDwTlfCA

[thepinkbomber]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1385338835' post='8201458']
Fh20 has 210, 420 and 1,000fps with full manual control though 210 is all you'd use for golf. I'm not basing this on a website. I have 4 Casio's including 2 that are brand new in the box and have been using then since 2008.
[/quote]Great. Thanks for info. Interested in selling one of the Casio's new in the box?

[thepinkbomber]

[quote name='Brian Manzella' timestamp='1385342088' post='8201762']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIYYDwTlfCA
[/quote]Thanks. That is all the quality I would need. Looks nice. Thank you for the demonstration. It's so hard to go by the numbers versus a demo. Thanks again.

[thepinkbomber]

[quote name='thepinkbomber' timestamp='1385348368' post='8202306']
[quote name='Brian Manzella' timestamp='1385342088' post='8201762']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIYYDwTlfCA
[/quote]Thanks. That is all the quality I would need. Looks nice. Thank you for the demonstration. It's so hard to go by the numbers versus a demo. Thanks again.
[/quote]Curious what resolution is the 240fps for the Kodak? Looks nice on the computer.

[thepinkbomber]

Brian,

Thanks for video. I can't believe the Kodak is only $125!!!! plus a 32gb SD card.

1. Do you need a special tripod connector since it stands vertical like a smart phone?

2. Do you connect to computer via the USB port and use Kodak software to replay OR do you use the mini-HDMI port directly to a larger monitor and use the replay on the device directly with the monitor? OR do you use SD card with computer software? OR just replay on 3 inch display on camcorder?
a) I personally would like to go directly to a monitor via the HDMI port and bypass computer software and replay using camera control I think. I can easily draw lines on the monitor.

3. I tried checking the specs on 240fps replay resolution but couldn't find any. I see it plays 1080p/720p and standard definition 320x240. I assume the 240fps is standard definition? Any idea?

THANKS! At this price point I can by one with little risk and your video it looks great.

[LittleLeftToRight]

That little Kodak looks pretty decent. I couldn't find any specs on the video quality at 240fps though. It is fuzzy enough to bother someone like me (photographer).

You could take a look at the GoPros. I think their middle model does 720p at 120fps. I think 120fps is enough. I am half thinking about getting one because they are pretty slick. Keep in mind you will have to store the files somehow. Video can take up a lot of space real fast.

[thepinkbomber]

LittleLefttoRight:

I did a search for gopro reviews. Expensive but nice. The review was for all new action camcorders. Lead me to the sony action cams that are cheaper and competing against the gopro.

Look at the Sony HDR AS15 action cam. This thing is only $130 straight from sony store. IT SHOOTS 120FPS AT 720P RESOLUTION. Has wide angle lense and HDMI out for director to monitor / TV review. It also has a SD type card. IT ALSO HAS WIFI which my understanding I can save files directly to my computer without any card or wire transfer OR go to my smartphone device which is advertised but curious if I can go wifi to my ipad?

The main difference between this and the Kodak is this gets nice resolution at 720P versus standard def at 120 FPS plus has wifi.

Does anyone know if this thing is legitimate at 720P resolution 120 FPS at only $130?

[JustTheTips]

I am surprised that Kodak is available. I thought they left the consumer market before shipping it.

I am pretty sure it is 720p at 240 but I don't think the shutter is super fast so you get a bit of blurring. People get hung up with fps but the shutter speed is just as important. A bit simple but shutter speed controls how clear the picture is, FPS controls where you can stop the video stream. A lot of cameras suffer doing slow mo in low lighting. Something to think about if you want to use it indoors.

[quote name='LittleLeftToRight' timestamp='1385351145' post='8202538']
That little Kodak looks pretty decent. I couldn't find any specs on the video quality at 240fps though. It is fuzzy enough to bother someone like me (photographer).

You could take a look at the GoPros. I think their middle model does 720p at 120fps. I think 120fps is enough. I am half thinking about getting one because they are pretty slick. Keep in mind you will have to store the files somehow. Video can take up a lot of space real fast.
[/quote]

[thepinkbomber]

[quote name='JustTheTips' timestamp='1385355183' post='8202846']
I am surprised that Kodak is available. I thought they left the consumer market before shipping it.

I am pretty sure it is 720p at 240 but I don't think the shutter is super fast so you get a bit of blurring. People get hung up with fps but the shutter speed is just as important. A bit simple but shutter speed controls how clear the picture is, FPS controls where you can stop the video stream. A lot of cameras suffer doing slow mo in low lighting. Something to think about if you want to use it indoors.

[quote name='LittleLeftToRight' timestamp='1385351145' post='8202538']
That little Kodak looks pretty decent. I couldn't find any specs on the video quality at 240fps though. It is fuzzy enough to bother someone like me (photographer).

You could take a look at the GoPros. I think their middle model does 720p at 120fps. I think 120fps is enough. I am half thinking about getting one because they are pretty slick. Keep in mind you will have to store the files somehow. Video can take up a lot of space real fast.
[/quote]
[/quote]Kodak is discontinued. It does do 120FPS but resolution is only standard def. The sony action cam I mention seems great at $130 for 720P resolution at 120FPS.

[thepinkbomber]

just got off tech support with sony for hdr-as15 regarding their wifi. They say the wifi can download videos without cards or wires to your smartphone or IPAD. The IPAD has an app in the app store called PlayMemories Mobile. It can play back 720p resolution with 120fps slow motion. Sounds cool for indoor use.

[smurray]

If you're patient there are still bargains to be had for the Casio's.

I'd been looking for a few weeks and finally scored a FH25 for $220 Australian dollars which is about $200 USD.

[thepinkbomber]

[quote name='smurray' timestamp='1385359686' post='8203058']
If you're patient there are still bargains to be had for the Casio's.

I'd been looking for a few weeks and finally scored a FH25 for $220 Australian dollars which is about $200 USD.
[/quote]From what I learned last night though the Casio can't come close to the new Sony action camm that does 120fps but the resolution you see it in is 720P high definition. The casio is closer to standard def which on a large monitor would look more fuzzy. Plus the Sony is $130 brand new and wifi to your computer and/or smart device. Wasn't sold on sony, just stumbled across it. They are trying to compete against the gopro's which are cams meant for action.

[JustTheTips]

The sony has higher resolution. The Casio has a faster shutter speed. You have to pick what you want. The high FPS is not hard to find. The fast shutter speed is.


[quote name='thepinkbomber' timestamp='1385377420' post='8203302']
[quote name='smurray' timestamp='1385359686' post='8203058']
If you're patient there are still bargains to be had for the Casio's.

I'd been looking for a few weeks and finally scored a FH25 for $220 Australian dollars which is about $200 USD.
[/quote]From what I learned last night though the Casio can't come close to the new Sony action camm that does 120fps but the resolution you see it in is 720P high definition. The casio is closer to standard def which on a large monitor would look more fuzzy. Plus the Sony is $130 brand new and wifi to your computer and/or smart device. Wasn't sold on sony, just stumbled across it. They are trying to compete against the gopro's which are cams meant for action.
[/quote]

[thepinkbomber]

For those interested in the math behind frame rate and shutter speeds I found the information below on the kinovea forum. This is not authored by me but their forum. Helpful to me to better understand. BTW kinovea also offers free software that works like V1 or cSwing.

FRAME RATE (SAMPLING RATE). 30fps is a slow sampling rate that might be adequate for locating players moving around in most sports but it cannot be used for rapid motions such as golf club swings, tennis strokes, baseball hits, throwing, etc because the sampling rate is too slow.

Consider how far an object (soccer player, tennis racket, arm, etc.) moves between frames for a given frame rate. We are considering the velocity to be across the frame in all cases. Picture a golfer with the swing viewed from the side.

DISTANCE MOVED = OBJECT VELOCITY / FRAME RATE

For a golf club head traveling 100 MPH or 44.7 m/sec and a camera frame rate of 240 fps:

DISTANCE MOVED = 44.7 m/s / 240fps

DISTANCE MOVED = 186 mm (each frame time), you catch the club every 19 cm.

For 30fps

DISTANCE MOVED = 1.49 m, inadequate for any useful swing information


MOTION BLUR. Motion blur is determined by the object velocity and exposure time (called "Shutter Speed"). For stop action frame-by-frame examination minimal motion blur can be very important. (Exactly the same as shutter speed for still photography.)

For a camera viewing an object traveling across the frame - picture the golfer with the swing viewed from the side - the motion blur is equal to:

MOTION BLUR = OBJECT VELOCITY X SHUTTER SPEED

For the same golf club head velocity of 44.7 m/s and a shutter speed of 1/10,000 sec then

MOTION BLUR = 44.7 m/s X 1/10,000 s

MOTION BLUR = 4.47 mm, 1/10,000s is adequate for seeing how the golf club head is oriented.

On the other hand, an exposure time of 1/1,000s results in a motion blur of 44.7 mm - about the size of the entire head of the golf club - too blurry.

High speed video cameras that operate with AUTO exposure control have unknown exposure times. The camera's AUTO control will also usually pick an exposure time that is too long resulting in unnecessary motion blur. However, often the available light would have allowed considerably shorter exposure times (faster shutter speeds).

[thepinkbomber]

[quote name='iteachgolf' timestamp='1385338835' post='8201458']
Fh20 has 210, 420 and 1,000fps with full manual control though 210 is all you'd use for golf. I'm not basing this on a website. I have 4 Casio's including 2 that are brand new in the box and have been using then since 2008.
[/quote]The casio spec shows the fh20 only goes up to 60fps from what I see. It shows the fh25 and fh100 going to 120fps. Maybe I am looking at out dated product specs.