Steve Williams to Retire in 2014 - May Be First Caddy Inducted to Golf Hall of Fame

[pga43]

Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox




Greg

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]

That's a sad article.

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.

[tembolo1284]

DirecTV then it's really more of a popularity contest for you than actual achievement based ya? Or kinda 50/50?

I just think it should be purely based on achievement. A bit harder with a team sport. Not so much in a sport like tennis or golf.

If the guy was a major salami but won all the majors and had top 10 numbers blah blah blah....i think he should get in regardless of his
character/personality since the hall should be a place that celebrates the greatest players and their achievements. We can't all be charming chaps.

[Frankie Lob Wedge]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386887904' post='8290949']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]

That's a sad article.
[/quote]

Let's be careful and not inject PEDs into this thread. Certain golf fans get very touchy about that subject.

MLB is a joke because of PEDs. Those managers should not be in the HoF but I blame MLB for that because they wanted home runs and juiced balls, bats and players.

Most of these HoF things are a joke anyway especially the Rock and Roll (Rolling Stone magazine) HoF owned by Jan Wenner.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Frankie Lob Wedge' timestamp='1386889096' post='8291041']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386887904' post='8290949']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]

That's a sad article.
[/quote]

Let's be careful and not inject PEDs into this thread. Certain golf fans get very touchy about that subject.

MLB is a joke because of PEDs. Those managers should not be in the HoF but I blame MLB for that because they wanted home runs and juiced balls, bats and players.

Most of these HoF things are a joke anyway especially the Rock and Roll (Rolling Stone magazine) HoF owned by Jan Wenner.
[/quote]

You are the only PED I need baby.

[nbg352]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

So then you feel Clemens.. McGuire.... Bonds... Canseco.... All those guys deserve to be immortalized in the Baseball HoF?

[Marrrk]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

exactly, nbg. but if we all followed that logic, what would we do with our feigned outrage, moral superiority, and righteous indignation?

[tembolo1284]

If they broke the rules of baseball in any way then no! If not...then it's fine.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386889807' post='8291087']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

So then you feel Clemens.. McGuire.... Bonds... Canseco.... All those guys deserve to be immortalized in the Baseball HoF?
[/quote]

judging someone for cheating and judging them for their "character" are two different things.

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1386890129' post='8291119']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

exactly, nbg. but if we all followed that logic, what would we do with our feigned outrage, moral superiority, and righteous indignation?
[/quote]

One does not have to feign outrage, feel superior, or feel self-righteous to disagree with someone's opinion.

Thanks for your contribution.

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1386890230' post='8291125']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386889807' post='8291087']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

So then you feel Clemens.. McGuire.... Bonds... Canseco.... All those guys deserve to be immortalized in the Baseball HoF?
[/quote]

judging someone for cheating and judging them for their "character" are two different things.
[/quote]

So then you would say yes... Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?

[Marrrk]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386890267' post='8291129']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1386890129' post='8291119']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

exactly, nbg. but if we all followed that logic, what would we do with our feigned outrage, moral superiority, and righteous indignation?
[/quote]

One does not have to feign outrage, feel superior, or feel self-righteous to disagree with someone's opinion.

Thanks for your contribution.
[/quote]

one does not. but far too many in this world do. it's practically a cottage industry, so it did warrant comment.

and for the record, i wasn't referring to you in any way. i apologize if it seemed like i was.

[SatelliteGuy]

^ This ^

All good man.... Just saying sometimes it really is just disagreement.

Bonds and Clemens... Yes or No?

[nbg352]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386889807' post='8291087']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

So then you feel Clemens.. McGuire.... Bonds... Canseco.... All those guys deserve to be immortalized in the Baseball HoF?
[/quote]
If, like Pete Rose before them, they are banned from ever gaining entrance to the HoF, for behaviour that is unacceptable by MLB standards, so be it. Otherwise, absolutely. The very same as I accept those players from the '20's etc. who are in the Hall in spite of the fact they openly used drugs, frowned on today, but quite legal then. Or players from the '60's and '70's who drank and drove. All of these activities are socially frowned upon and those who do it today are considered to be of "low character".
They were perfectly acceptable back in the day.
Moral, ethical and, social acceptability and thus "character", is in a constant state of flux and change. It has no place in determining whether a candidate for the HoF is suitable for the honor.

[Marrrk]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386890342' post='8291141']
[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1386890230' post='8291125']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386889807' post='8291087']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

So then you feel Clemens.. McGuire.... Bonds... Canseco.... All those guys deserve to be immortalized in the Baseball HoF?
[/quote]

judging someone for cheating and judging them for their "character" are two different things.
[/quote]

So then you would say yes... Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the Hall of Fame?
[/quote]

i'm honestly not sure where i stand on the HoF issue.

but to your point, i am certainly no fan of either of them or McGwire. and i think home runs are overrated. and steroids/cheating stink. and it wouldn't bother me if they didn't ever make it. but i could also imagine having been a fan of one of their teams and possibly finding reasons to think they should be in. but maybe not. i don't know. i just can't say for certain.

[nbg352]

[quote name='Marrrk' timestamp='1386890129' post='8291119']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

exactly, nbg. but if we all followed that logic, what would we do with our feigned outrage, moral superiority, and righteous indignation?
[/quote]
Yeah, that's a problem, all right......

[Marrrk]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386890628' post='8291167']
^ This ^

All good man.... Just saying sometimes it really is just disagreement.

Bonds and Clemens... Yes or No?
[/quote]

no doubt.

and my point was more that i think it's fine to say "i believe they cheated, and so i think they should not be rewarded with the HoF, etc." but it's a bigger leap to say, "i just don't think this one player has good character." all the while assuming that some other player does just because he hasn't been caught yet. so better to leave "character" out of it.

[tembolo1284]

Do you agree with what marrrrk said direcTV?

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386890759' post='8291179']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386889807' post='8291087']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

So then you feel Clemens.. McGuire.... Bonds... Canseco.... All those guys deserve to be immortalized in the Baseball HoF?
[/quote]
If, like Pete Rose before them, they are banned from ever gaining entrance to the HoF, for behaviour that is unacceptable by MLB standards, so be it. Otherwise, absolutely. The very same as I accept those players from the '20's etc. who are in the Hall in spite of the fact they openly used drugs, frowned on today, but quite legal then. Or players from the '60's and '70's who drank and drove. All of these activities are socially frowned upon and those who do it today are considered to be of "low character".
They were perfectly acceptable back in the day.
Moral, ethical and, social acceptability and thus "character", is in a constant state of flux and change. It has no place in determining whether a candidate for the HoF is suitable for the honor.
[/quote]

And I have to disagree... I don't think showering people with Awards and Recognition should be done without thought to Character... We just simply disagree on this one!

Thanks for your opinion!

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386891257' post='8291239']
Do you agree with what marrrrk said direcTV?
[/quote]

To a degree...

I don't think it's possible to separate character from performance... Just the way my brain works...

I think Bonds... Tiger... A-Roid... ( Ha! )... McGuire... All these guys that have had a chance to create a positive image for Athletes and have made MILLIONS because of the General Publics willingness to pay for entertainment truly failed the same public by being complete and total DB's.

I know it's their private lives... I get it... But they're rich because of the general public. Because of us paying for tickets, merchandise, companies using them for marketing to get us to buy their goods....

It's also human nature to make mistakes and also a responsibility of everyone's to forgive mistakes and move forward.... I just think at a certain point we should think twice about immortalizing DB's.... Otherwise... When we look at Tiger.... Bonds.... People who have become the wealthiest of athletes... What prevents the future versions of these Superstars from behaving even worse if we continue, as a society, to reward their rotten behavior.

[SatelliteGuy]

I don't think it's beyond us a society to forgive... But I think when we are talking about holding a person up above the crowd... We shouldn't forget.

[nbg352]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386891298' post='8291249']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386890759' post='8291179']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386889807' post='8291087']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386889560' post='8291069']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386888891' post='8291023']
[quote name='pga43' timestamp='1386887681' post='8290927']
Interesting read from Rick Rielly on three MLB managers getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame on the backs of players who are admitted users of PED.

Do managers belong in the BB HofF when they've never thrown a pitch or hit a ball in any of the games they managed? They do have some influence in the outcome of the game thru strategy decisions (sort of like what a good caddy might offer their player?).



[url="http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/10116177/rick-reilly-torre-la-russa-cox"]http://espn.go.com/m...re-la-russa-cox[/url]




Greg
[/quote]


Pretty disappointing story.

And that's my point... The guy writing the article is saying it's a bad deal these guys get into the HOF with such rotten characters.

And I said it earlier.... SW... May very well get into the Golf HoF... If he does... Fine... People felt like he deserved it.

I just don't believe he deserves it because of his character.

Just like that writer questions Torre... LaRussa... And Cox....

I don't think guys with obvious character issues deserve applause.

Just me fellas... Just me.
[/quote]
Character is re-defined in every generation. Talent and lifetime achievement is a constant that requires no definition.
Character, due to it's variable nature, has no place in the HoF, except anecdotely.
[/quote]

So then you feel Clemens.. McGuire.... Bonds... Canseco.... All those guys deserve to be immortalized in the Baseball HoF?
[/quote]
If, like Pete Rose before them, they are banned from ever gaining entrance to the HoF, for behaviour that is unacceptable by MLB standards, so be it. Otherwise, absolutely. The very same as I accept those players from the '20's etc. who are in the Hall in spite of the fact they openly used drugs, frowned on today, but quite legal then. Or players from the '60's and '70's who drank and drove. All of these activities are socially frowned upon and those who do it today are considered to be of "low character".
They were perfectly acceptable back in the day.
Moral, ethical and, social acceptability and thus "character", is in a constant state of flux and change. It has no place in determining whether a candidate for the HoF is suitable for the honor.
[/quote]

And I have to disagree... I don't think showering people with Awards and Recognition should be done without thought to Character... We just simply disagree on this one!

Thanks for your opinion!
[/quote]
Have a look at the histories of players past who are in any given HoF. Go back far enough and you'll discover character flaws that make Sergio look like a true gentleman.
And no; thank you, for your opinion. It was after all, your expression of belief that allowed me the opportunity to type my own....

[SatelliteGuy]

^ This ^

I just thinks it's sad, because your right, there is a lot of scum in the HoF's for each sport... I just think it's sad we let those people be examples of Greatness..

[nbg352]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386891841' post='8291311']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386891257' post='8291239']
Do you agree with what marrrrk said direcTV?
[/quote]

To a degree...

I don't think it's possible to separate character from performance... Just the way my brain works...

I think Bonds... Tiger... A-Roid... ( Ha! )... McGuire... All these guys that have had a chance to create a positive image for Athletes and have made MILLIONS because of the General Publics willingness to pay for entertainment truly failed the same public by being complete and total DB's.

I know it's their private lives... I get it... But they're rich because of the general public. Because of us paying for tickets, merchandise, companies using them for marketing to get us to buy their goods....

It's also human nature to make mistakes and also a responsibility of everyone's to forgive mistakes and move forward.... I just think at a certain point we should think twice about immortalizing DB's.... Otherwise... When we look at Tiger.... Bonds.... People who have become the wealthiest of athletes... What prevents the future versions of these Superstars from behaving even worse if we continue, as a society, to reward their rotten behavior.
[/quote]
And yet, someone with such high regard for "character" will blithely make unfounded accusations about someone they do not even know and think it's okay. Just one more reason why trusting anyone to honestly define character is a mistake insofar as inducting anyone to the HoF is concerned.

[SatelliteGuy]

[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386892608' post='8291395']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386891841' post='8291311']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386891257' post='8291239']
Do you agree with what marrrrk said direcTV?
[/quote]

To a degree...

I don't think it's possible to separate character from performance... Just the way my brain works...

I think Bonds... Tiger... A-Roid... ( Ha! )... McGuire... All these guys that have had a chance to create a positive image for Athletes and have made MILLIONS because of the General Publics willingness to pay for entertainment truly failed the same public by being complete and total DB's.

I know it's their private lives... I get it... But they're rich because of the general public. Because of us paying for tickets, merchandise, companies using them for marketing to get us to buy their goods....

It's also human nature to make mistakes and also a responsibility of everyone's to forgive mistakes and move forward.... I just think at a certain point we should think twice about immortalizing DB's.... Otherwise... When we look at Tiger.... Bonds.... People who have become the wealthiest of athletes... What prevents the future versions of these Superstars from behaving even worse if we continue, as a society, to reward their rotten behavior.
[/quote]
And yet, someone with such high regard for "character" will blithely make unfounded accusations about someone they do not even know and think it's okay. Just one more reason why trusting anyone to honestly define character is a mistake insofar as inducting anyone to the HoF is concerned.
[/quote]

Care to elaborate.... What " unfounded accusation " do you refer to?

[nbg352]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386892289' post='8291361']
^ This ^

I just thinks it's sad, because your right, there is a lot of scum in the HoF's for each sport... I just think it's sad we let those people be examples of Greatness..
[/quote]
It's one of the many reasons not to have athletes as role models for our children. Except for their incredible talent and work ethic, they are likely to disappoint as exmples of moral or socially responsible behaviour. They are, after all, just human..

[SatelliteGuy]

Bonds... Cheater
Alex Rodriguez.... Cheater
McGuire.... Cheater
Tiger... Womanizer

Care to tell me which one is unfounded?

[nbg352]

[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386892812' post='8291413']
[quote name='nbg352' timestamp='1386892608' post='8291395']
[quote name='DirecTVTechGuy' timestamp='1386891841' post='8291311']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386891257' post='8291239']
Do you agree with what marrrrk said direcTV?
[/quote]

To a degree...

I don't think it's possible to separate character from performance... Just the way my brain works...

I think Bonds... Tiger... A-Roid... ( Ha! )... McGuire... All these guys that have had a chance to create a positive image for Athletes and have made MILLIONS because of the General Publics willingness to pay for entertainment truly failed the same public by being complete and total DB's.

I know it's their private lives... I get it... But they're rich because of the general public. Because of us paying for tickets, merchandise, companies using them for marketing to get us to buy their goods....

It's also human nature to make mistakes and also a responsibility of everyone's to forgive mistakes and move forward.... I just think at a certain point we should think twice about immortalizing DB's.... Otherwise... When we look at Tiger.... Bonds.... People who have become the wealthiest of athletes... What prevents the future versions of these Superstars from behaving even worse if we continue, as a society, to reward their rotten behavior.
[/quote]
And yet, someone with such high regard for "character" will blithely make unfounded accusations about someone they do not even know and think it's okay. Just one more reason why trusting anyone to honestly define character is a mistake insofar as inducting anyone to the HoF is concerned.
[/quote]

Care to elaborate.... What " unfounded accusation " do you refer to?
[/quote]
"Tiger.....aroid"