Dove Mountain

[asommers14]

I will be in the Phoenix Scottsdale area in May. I plan to play We Ko Pa and was thinking of driving down and playing Dove Mountain. I was just wondering is it worth it to drive down there are should I stay in the Phx/Scottsdale area.

[90isagoodday]

IMO there are probably 8 courses in PHX as good/better than Dove Mtn. I wouldnt drive unless it was a random bucket list thing for you (which it shouldn't be)

[asommers14]

I havent had the pleasure of playing a Nicklaus Designed course and I thought that could cross that off.

[adamsstaff]

Dove Mountain is never in good shape. Sub par lay out. I would pass. I agree with the other poster. Nicklaus designed many great golf courses. This is definitely not one of them.

[asommers14]

Thanks for the feedback

[fore_life]

There's a few Nicklaus courses in the valley, golf club of Estrella is one, and I think superstition mountain is his work too

[toypor]

http://www.estrellagolf.com/index.php

Jack Nicklaus II design on the far West side of Phoenix might be a good compromise. I always enjoyed this layout quite a bit and find it compares very favorably to the "big name" Scottsdale tracks.

[Arizonalefty59]

If you want to break all of your clubs out of frustration then I would suggest playing Dove Mountain.

[ClarkGrswld4]

[quote name='toypor' timestamp='1387507803' post='8325979']
[url="http://www.estrellagolf.com/index.php"]http://www.estrellagolf.com/index.php[/url]

Jack Nicklaus II design on the far West side of Phoenix might be a good compromise. I always enjoyed this layout quite a bit and find it compares very favorably to the "big name" Scottsdale tracks.
[/quote]

+1. was probably my favorite course when i lived out there

[isaacbm]

Dove mountain voted least favorite course on tour by players last 3 years in a row.
Also, way colder up there because of elevation.

I think the place is weak at best. Stop halfway there at southern dunes.

[teejaywhy]

Some comments:

While Dove Mountain is not my favorite, I think it is worth a visit if one desires to play a Jack Nicklaus "Signature" course. I don't know what the conditioning issues mentioned are about, but if I were to guess, winter season conditioning post overseed is very likely to be excellent to outstanding.

Jack's courses are typically very demanding, Dove Mtn is no exception. For sure, a poster child for "play it forward." I have learned that if I want to have any remote chance of fun playing a JN course, then I move up a tee box (or two!). Given this, it is not the type of course I would want to play on a regular basis, but still a very interesting and scenic course.

If one is interested to play a Jack Nicklaus Signature course, then Dove Mtn is the only public access choice in Arizona that I am aware of. The others mentioned are collaborations with others credited as the lead designer so they are not considered "signature" designs. (as if JN designs any of his courses...) Anyway, GC Estrella and Superstition Mtn Lost Gold are Jack Jr. w/Dad and the Prospector course is Gary Nicklaus with Dad.

Finally, I can't figure out why any recreational golfer should give one sh*t about what a pro tournament golfer thinks about a golf course. They play golf for a living, this fact alone disqualifies them from being able to provide any objective evaluation. (Ben Crenshaw, Geoff Ogilvy and a few others excepted...) The things they hated most (the greens) were the most fun part of the course for me!

[puttnforthe8]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1387557383' post='8328089']
Dove mountain voted least favorite course on tour by players last 3 years in a row.
Also, way colder up there because of elevation.

I think the place is weak at best. Stop halfway there at southern dunes.
[/quote]

HUH??

first off, What TJ said about the pros vs amateur is spot on and agree completely.

Second...Marana is 800-900 feet different in elevation, the course being a little more. This translates to a mean of 2-3 degrees. "way colder" is a generalization with exaggeration. There will be days that can be much colder with a gross/yucky wind.

To call it weak, while your opinion, is just not right. It is not that bad of a course. I have played it many times and while not my favorite it is a good time when I visit. I have played decently and not overly frustrated. It is a good facility and a good clubhouse(even better if you go up to the hotel), course has always been in good shape when I played...not sure what is going on now.

As a day trip a Dove Mountain and Gallery 36 holes is a pretty good day....and I would do it any time.

Also, since they play the Match Play event there, there is no reason not to play the course. I mean, if out of town folks are going to come in to play the TPC because of a PGA event is held there, I would definitely put Dove Mountain ahead of TPC if you had to choose.

As for the original question of the OP: If it is in bad shape, then it is not worth the drive. If you want to play the course because the PGA event is held there, then it is worth the drive. If you are going to include it with another course for 36, then it would be worth the drive. If you just want to play good courses in AZ, then it is not worth the drive...you can get your fill here in the metro area.

[jptruck]

I'm pretty surprised at all the hate this course gets. I've played just about everything in Tucson that's worth playing: Stone Canyon, The Gallery, Starr Pass, Omni Tucson National, La Paloma, Oro Valley, Vistoso, etc., etc., and Dove is my favorite. Granted, I've always played it the week after the match play tournament when it's arguably in it's best condition, but I really enjoy the course.

I'm not a Nicklaus fan usually, and I've played quite a bit of desert golf there, Phoenix, Vegas, Cabo, etc. This track is up there as one of the best, in my opinion. [size=4]That said, there are three, nine-hole courses in the complex, and the Tortolita course is an odd duck. I guess the greens on that course are what Dove's were like before they flattened them. If you can skip it, you're not missing much.[/size]

[size=4]It's worth playing, yes.[/size]

[jptruck]

Reference photo

[jptruck]

A few more:

[jptruck]

Although Stone Canyon is fun, too, though.

[Jefe21]

Dove mountain voted least favorite course on tour by players last 3 years in a row.

The only time they play it, it snows. And its 7,700yds the longest on tour. Of course theyd say that.

 

Dove Mountain is never in good shape. Sub par lay out.

Lies

 

I love Dove. Played it 5 times now and the worst shape it has ever been was still better than 95% of the courses down here. Quick greens with tons of slope. Top notch facility

 

 

Although Stone Canyon is fun, too, though.

Ive heard they allow some public play? I want to play there baaaad

[puttnforthe8]

[quote name='jptruck' timestamp='1387573223' post='8329171']Although Stone Canyon is fun, too, though.

Ive heard they allow some public play? I want to play there baaaad
[/quote]

If you find out that they are doing so...let me know and I will be down quick!

[isaacbm]

[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1387562597' post='8328467']
Some comments:

While Dove Mountain is not my favorite, I think it is worth a visit if one desires to play a Jack Nicklaus "Signature" course. I don't know what the conditioning issues mentioned are about, but if I were to guess, winter season conditioning post overseed is very likely to be excellent to outstanding.

Jack's courses are typically very demanding, Dove Mtn is no exception. For sure, a poster child for "play it forward." I have learned that if I want to have any remote chance of fun playing a JN course, then I move up a tee box (or two!). Given this, it is not the type of course I would want to play on a regular basis, but still a very interesting and scenic course.

If one is interested to play a Jack Nicklaus Signature course, then Dove Mtn is the only public access choice in Arizona that I am aware of. The others mentioned are collaborations with others credited as the lead designer so they are not considered "signature" designs. (as if JN designs any of his courses...) Anyway, GC Estrella and Superstition Mtn Lost Gold are Jack Jr. w/Dad and the Prospector course is Gary Nicklaus with Dad.

Finally, I can't figure out why any recreational golfer should give one sh*t about what a pro tournament golfer thinks about a golf course. They play golf for a living, this fact alone disqualifies them from being able to provide any objective evaluation. (Ben Crenshaw, Geoff Ogilvy and a few others excepted...) The things they hated most (the greens) were the most fun part of the course for me!
[/quote]

Maybe because they get to play 100's and 100's of courses and are pretty much experts at many things golf related....

I'd rather get the opinion of a world traveller then one of my buddies that would pretty much base their opinion on nothing more than beer selections.

That's just me though, call me crazy.

[isaacbm]

The course is 1500-2500 feet higher then Phoenix. I've played there many times. There are more frost delays per winter season then anywhere else in southern az.

It's nice, I'm just saying that it's not with going all the way there when there are so many great closer options.

Realize frost not a big concern in May

[puttnforthe8]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1387581785' post='8329595']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1387562597' post='8328467']
Some comments:

While Dove Mountain is not my favorite, I think it is worth a visit if one desires to play a Jack Nicklaus "Signature" course. I don't know what the conditioning issues mentioned are about, but if I were to guess, winter season conditioning post overseed is very likely to be excellent to outstanding.

Jack's courses are typically very demanding, Dove Mtn is no exception. For sure, a poster child for "play it forward." I have learned that if I want to have any remote chance of fun playing a JN course, then I move up a tee box (or two!). Given this, it is not the type of course I would want to play on a regular basis, but still a very interesting and scenic course.

If one is interested to play a Jack Nicklaus Signature course, then Dove Mtn is the only public access choice in Arizona that I am aware of. The others mentioned are collaborations with others credited as the lead designer so they are not considered "signature" designs. (as if JN designs any of his courses...) Anyway, GC Estrella and Superstition Mtn Lost Gold are Jack Jr. w/Dad and the Prospector course is Gary Nicklaus with Dad.

Finally, I can't figure out why any recreational golfer should give one sh*t about what a pro tournament golfer thinks about a golf course. They play golf for a living, this fact alone disqualifies them from being able to provide any objective evaluation. (Ben Crenshaw, Geoff Ogilvy and a few others excepted...) The things they hated most (the greens) were the most fun part of the course for me!
[/quote]

Maybe because they get to play 100's and 100's of courses and are pretty much experts at many things golf related....

I'd rather get the opinion of a world traveller then one of my buddies that would pretty much base their opinion on nothing more than beer selections.

That's just me though, call me crazy.
[/quote]


[b]Crazy![/b] These were rankings of the events available. Here is the list of the bottom:

[color=#000000]36. PGA West - Arnold Palmer Private (La Quinta, Calif., Humana Challenge)[/color]
[color=#000000]37. Montreux G&CC (Reno, Nev., Reno-Tahoe Open)[/color]
[color=#000000]38. Walt Disney World Resort - Magnolia (Lake Buena Vista, Fla., Children's Miracle Network Hospitals Challenge)[/color]
[color=#000000]39. TPC Summerlin (Las Vegas, Nev., Justin Timberlake Shriners Hospitals For Children Open)[/color]
[color=#000000]40. Glen Abbey (Oakville, Ont., RBC Canadian Open)[/color]
[color=#000000]41. Trump International GC - Championship (Rio Grande, Puerto Rico Open)[/color]
[color=#000000]42. Redstone GC - Tournament (Humble, Tex., Shell Houston Open)[/color]
[color=#000000]43. The Plantation Course At Kapalua (Kapalua, Hawaii, Hyundai Tournament of Champions)[/color]
[color=#000000]44. PGA West - Jack Nicklaus Private (La Quinta, Calif., Humana Challenge)[/color]
[color=#000000]45. TPC Louisiana (Avondale, La., Zurich Classic of New Orleans)[/color]
[color=#000000]46. Cog Hill G&CC (Lemont, Ill., BMW Championship)[/color]
[color=#000000]47. Walt Disney World Resort - Palm (Lake Buena Vista, Fla., Children's Miracle Network Hospitals Challenge)[/color]
[color=#000000]48. Torrey Pines GC - North (La Jolla, Calif., Farmers Insurance Open)[/color]
[color=#000000]49. TPC Four Seasons Resort Las Colinas (Irving, Tex., HP Byron Nelson Championship)[/color]
[color=#000000]50. TPC San Antonio - AT&T Oaks (San Antonio, Tex., Valero Texas Open)[/color]
[color=#000000]51. Ritz-Carlton GC - Dove Mountain (Marana, Ariz., WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship)[/color]
[color=#000000]52. Liberty National GC (Jersey City, N.J., The Barclays)[/color]

[color=#000000]They are NOT ranking the worst courses in the America. Only the ones on tour![/color]

[color=#000000]Just like you could put together a ranking of courses here in AZ. You may put one course over another if I gave you a list....that doesn't mean it is the worst course in AZ.[/color]

Experiment:

Dinosaur Mountain, Quintero, Wekopa, Vista Verde, Papago, Estrella Mountain, Sunridge, Raven Phoenix, TPC both courses, Whirlwind both courses, Boulders both courses, Grayhawk both courses.

OK...rank them!

[puttnforthe8]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1387582583' post='8329627']
The course is 1500-2500 feet higher then Phoenix. I've played there many times. There are more frost delays per winter season then anywhere else in southern az.

It's nice, I'm just saying that it's not with going all the way there when there are so many great closer options.

Realize frost not a big concern in May
[/quote]

I too play there many times. As well as the Gallery....Going on Monday.

Your comment was that it is "way colder".

Phoenix is 1117, Dove mountain is 2300 with a few holes hitting a few more hundred....maybe up to 3000. Many of the common hikes max at 2900 and you are pretty much even with the course.

Per actual statistics the mean temp is only a few degrees difference.

[jptruck]

[quote name='puttnforthe8' timestamp='1387578090' post='8329421']
[quote name='jptruck' timestamp='1387573223' post='8329171']Although Stone Canyon is fun, too, though.

Ive heard they allow some public play? I want to play there baaaad
[/quote]

If you find out that they are doing so...let me know and I will be down quick!
[/quote]

I've heard Stone Canyon had some issues lately. It may be more "public" than ever. Neat course, but I'd actually rather play Dove than Stone. Played both numerous times.

Regarding the tour list, that's bull-you-know-what. There's twenty courses on that list that I'd place below Dove. The Magnolia course at Disney? Are you kidding me? I'd even put Dove above Bay Hill, Torrey and most of the TPC courses on that list.

[teejaywhy]

[quote name='isaacbm' timestamp='1387581785' post='8329595']
[quote name='teejaywhy' timestamp='1387562597' post='8328467']


Finally, I can't figure out why any recreational golfer should give one sh*t about what a pro tournament golfer thinks about a golf course. They play golf for a living, this fact alone disqualifies them from being able to provide any objective evaluation. (Ben Crenshaw, Geoff Ogilvy and a few others excepted...) The things they hated most (the greens) were the most fun part of the course for me!
[/quote]

Maybe because they get to play 100's and 100's of courses and are pretty much experts at many things golf related....

I'd rather get the opinion of a world traveller then one of my buddies that would pretty much base their opinion on nothing more than beer selections.

That's just me though, call me crazy.
[/quote]

Perhaps you need to find some more enlightened buddies!

[isaacbm]

Defensive much?

If you like the course fine. Not better personally then 20 I can play in Scottsdale area and no long drive.

I exaggerated the temp difference but a few degrees matters if you're trying to play early or trying to get in 36.

And all it pointed out was it was not like by tour players which someone proved by the list posted.

This is a forum guys. Am I not allowed to list an opinion?

I will consent however that I have stupid friends...

[fore_life]

I'll just throw this out there;

Screw all arizona desert golf courses. That'll mix it up a bit

[Arizonalefty59]

[quote name='fore_life' timestamp='1387666204' post='8332991']
I'll just throw this out there;

Screw all arizona desert golf courses. That'll mix it up a bit
[/quote]
Amen to that, I'm getting sick of them.

[Arizonalefty59]

I will say that Dove Mountain is one of the toughest courses I've ever played but it is my favorite in AZ.

[isaacbm]

Forelife

You know me Mark. I'm looking for the best parkland course with desert climate! Lol !

I should stay out of these threads!

Give me Phoenix CC or wigwam and I'm happy!

[jewofgolf]

I would love to play Dove Mountain sometime. It seems like a really tough target style Nicklaus course. I like those on a non-regular basis, quite a bit actually. The fact that the tour plays there and the greens are nuts...sounds awesome.